Denon's DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray Player OWNERS Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlstang95 View Post

Here is the latest spec sheet that Listen Up.com sent me today. The revised image of the 2500 now has the Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA logo. This unit will not have any onboard decoding of audio. It is strictly a digital transport to a capable receiver that will do all of the decoding work. The one question is what video processor will be onboard. Reon or just a Denon processor.

I just read this sheet and it clearly states output to 7.1 channels (LPCM) for the 2500 transport!!

What is the truth here? Will it decode and output LPCM 7.1... It must...If core output is only 5.1, 7.1 must be from DTS MA / TRUE HD?

FROM THE above, newly posted 2500 PDF:

dts-HD Master Audio support - Dolby TrueHD,
• Dolby TrueHD up to 7.1 ch bitstream output
• dts-HD Master Audio up to 7.1 ch bitstream output
LPCM output up to 7.1 ch
• Decoding Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD Master audio core 5.1 ch to PCM 5.1 ch

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #92 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 05:14 AM
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bland,

The truth is we are getting so much conflicting information that there is no way to know.

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post #93 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 05:17 AM
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Agreed....

However, if the newest spec sheet is legit...then I am thinking the 2500 will be the player I was hoping it would be.

7.1 LPCM output must be DTS MA / TRUE HD as the core tracks are only 5.1

But, we'll see.....

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #94 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 05:54 AM
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^^Now the spec sheet just needs to include "Reon" or "Realta" and all of a sudden this thing becomes a very attractive option.
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post #95 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 06:09 AM
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Quote:


What is the truth here? Will it decode and output LPCM 7.1... It must...If core output is only 5.1, 7.1 must be from DTS MA / TRUE HD?

I think it's just referring to movies already encoded with PCM tracks (like Pirates, and all the Disney movies). Bitstream for all the "packed" DTS and Dolby codecs, LPCM for PCM tracks, is my guess..
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post #96 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 06:39 AM
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Fair assessment...but I hope you are incorrect!

THere has to be some decoding possible as it does do DTS / DD core....

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #97 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

THere has to be some decoding possible as it does do DTS / DD core....

The transport was always expected to internally decode legacy DD and DTS, as it's required of all BD playback components. A lot of people say the transport merely bit-streams, but decoding of these legacy codecs is a given.

Also, the 7.1 PCM output mentioned in that spec sheet is just referring to tracks already encoded in PCM. As for the advanced lossless codecs, no one really knows what the final product will bring given all the different information out there. I'm still trying to figure out what DSP chipset(s) the transport will have, and if it's the same as the 3800's.
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post #98 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 08:17 AM
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It's my understanding that SACD and DVD-Audio can be sent thorugh HDMI 1.3, even though they said these players won't be SACD and DVD-Audio playback compliant, isn't it the same principle as using the transport for CD and DVD playback as well? Why wouldn't you be able to play SACD and DVD-Audio, is that a seperate laser as well to read it?

I also, i understand the differences between the units, the 2500 is to be matched with the 2808 / 3808, 4308 reciever units to have them do all the decoding, and the 3800 is to have the player do all the decoding, but it does state the 2500 transport will have upscaling, so it has to have SOME chip, unless they are assuming you're using the faroudja from the recievers?
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post #99 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Agreed....

However, if the newest spec sheet is legit...then I am thinking the 2500 will be the player I was hoping it would be.

7.1 LPCM output must be DTS MA / TRUE HD as the core tracks are only 5.1

But, we'll see.....

It says up to 7.1. DTS core is decoded as LPCM. DD hidden track (included with TrueHD) is decoded as LPCM. LPCM on disc (up to 7.1) is output as LPCM.

The name of the player is a TRANSPORT. I am sure that Denon intends this player to be mated with one of their HDMI v1.3 receivers and the 3800 to be used with HDMIv1.1 and analog only receivers.

I think the ONLY reason it even decodes DTS and TrueHD "core" is because it is a requirement of the spec. If no internal decoding was required and 2 streams could be sent by HDMI I think they would have had NO decoding at all and sent everything bitstream. Obviously the spec and pip requires decoding so it is included but the HD audio is going to be bitstream only.
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post #100 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwock5 View Post

It's my understanding that SACD and DVD-Audio can be sent thorugh HDMI 1.3, even though they said these players won't be SACD and DVD-Audio playback compliant, isn't it the same principle as using the transport for CD and DVD playback as well?

In terms of audio, DVD-Audio and SACD are different in the sense that SACDs are encoded in DST and DVD-Audio discs are encoded in MLP, and these must be decoded in the player. In the case of SACDs, the lossless DST codec is decoded into DSD and sent over HDMI as DSD. In the case of DVD-Audio discs, the lossless MLP codec is decoded into PCM and sent over HDMI as PCM. Extra time and resources would have to be expended in implementing the decoding and optical interfacing of these formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwock5 View Post

I also, i understand the differences between the units, the 2500 is to be matched with the 2808 / 3808, 4308 reciever units to have them do all the decoding, and the 3800 is to have the player do all the decoding, but it does state the 2500 transport will have upscaling, so it has to have SOME chip, unless they are assuming you're using the faroudja from the recievers?

The transport will have a de-interlacing/interlacing and scaling solution, but it will likely be generic when compared to an HQV or ABT solution.
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post #101 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 09:27 AM
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Is it possible that Denon is using the same HQV chip as in the 3800 but is saving a few bucks in licensing fees by not advertising it or putting the logo on the player? I don't know if things work that way but it seems strange that they would go to the trouble to develop a separate in-house solution for a $1,000 unit when they have already incorporated the HQV in their other blu-ray player.

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post #102 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 03:56 PM
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I have a 2500 on order to mate with my 4308. I will then move the PS3 to another room. I'll be interested to see if the 2500 makes a better picture than the PS3. I know I will get more audio formats out of the 2500.
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post #103 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 03:57 PM
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When will the 2500 be available? Anyone even know?

Mike
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post #104 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 04:45 PM
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How can the 2500 be P1.1 and CI yet have no ethernet jack?

Also, where's the card reader slot????
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post #105 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp View Post

Also, where's the card reader slot????

Right hand side of the display.

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post #106 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 05:49 PM
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According to my read of the Product Sheet for the AVR-5308CI and DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player they both seem to have exactly the same video and audio processing chips and specs (please correct me if I am wrong).

So, wouldn’t the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport connected to the AVR-5308CI produce the exact same video and audio result as the DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player connected to the same AVR-5308CI?

If so, then I presume if you are going to be a AVR-5308CI owner and are trying to choose between the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport or DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player there would be no point in purchasing the DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player because it wouldn’t produce any different result for you than the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport.

Am I correct?
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post #107 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrey View Post

According to my read of the Product Sheet for the AVR-5308CI and DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player they both seem to have exactly the same video and audio processing chips and specs (please correct me if I am wrong).

So, wouldn't the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport connected to the AVR-5308CI produce the exact same video and audio result as the DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player connected to the same AVR-5308CI?


If so, then I presume if you are going to be a AVR-5308CI owner and are trying to choose between the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport or DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player there would be no point in purchasing the DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player because it wouldn't produce any different result for you than the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport.

Am I correct?


For BD I think your right. For SD DVD the 3800 has the HQV Realta upconversion chip. The 2500 only indicates "10bit upconversion" which would lead me to believe it is NOT the Relta and likely an entry level chip (maybe Denon internal design).
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post #108 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp View Post

How can the 2500 be P1.1 and CI yet have no ethernet jack?

Also, where's the card reader slot????

Custom Install and no ethernet, that's strange. Ethernet is however not a requirement for profile 1.1, only BD-Live requires an ethernet port.

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #109 of 2526 Old 01-10-2008, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrey View Post

So, wouldn’t the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport connected to the AVR-5308CI produce the exact same video and audio result as the DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player connected to the same AVR-5308CI?

If so, then I presume if you are going to be a AVR-5308CI owner and are trying to choose between the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport or DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player there would be no point in purchasing the DVD-3800BDCI Blu-Ray player because it wouldn’t produce any different result for you than the DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray transport.

I personally think that depends on one thing. IF the 2500 decodes DD+,TrueHD and DTS-HD to PCM, then there would be no difference if HDMI is your connection of choice. However, if the player front panel picture is accurate, it seems the only way to get the new audio codecs is to bitstream them to an HDMI 1.3 receiver with decoding support.

That's fine as long as you can live with one thing... no profile 1.1 extras working, as none of those will get any sound. For 1.1 extras such as PiP to work as intended, decoding and mixing must be done in player. The only way the 2500 can decode on board is if it uses bog std. DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1, or the disc has a lossless PCM track. So, if you want working PiP etc with full quality audio, on the face of it, the 2500 can only deliver that with PCM discs. Anything else will result in a large drop in quality.

The 3800 will be able to do all 1.1 extras and deliver full quality audio as either PCM over HDMI or over analogue outs.

BOTH players will suffer glitches if you bitstream HD audio. In both cases to 'seamlessly' switch to PiP and get audio will need you to switch to in-player decoding to get it to work. At best, even if the remote has a simple toggle button, you're going to get a brief audio drop out. At worst you're going to have to stop the movie, fiddle with player settings and then restart which as we all know doesn't work for BD-J (hence all 1.1 features) discs. Somewhere between those two extremes I suspect lie things such as video freezes, synch drift etc.

Of course if the 2500 can decode DD+,TrueHD and DTS-HD to PCM internally, then to use profile 1.1 features you don't need a 1.3 HDMI amp anyway as the output of choice remains PCM from the player.
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post #110 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 04:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

For BD I think your right. For SD DVD the 3800 has the HQV Realta upconversion chip. The 2500 only indicates "10bit upconversion" which would lead me to believe it is NOT the Relta and likely an entry level chip (maybe Denon internal design).


Thanks very much. I thought the AVR-5308CI would do the upconversion for any SD DVDs played on a DVD-2500BTCI connected to the AVR-5308CI since that AVR has the Realta sx T2 HQV processing for i/p and scaling which is the same as the DVD-3800BDCI player. So, I thought even SD DVD video result would be the same regardless of if they were played on the DVD-3800BDCI or DVD-2500BTCI connected to the AVR-5308CI. Am I missing something?
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post #111 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 04:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_S View Post

... That's fine as long as you can live with one thing... no profile 1.1 extras working, as none of those will get any sound...

Thanks, Ian. The part I don't follow then is the statement in the Product Sheet that reads: "Supports extended functions for BD-Video. Sub-video data (directors comments, etc.) recorded with movies on BD-Video discs can be enjoyed in a sub-screen along with the main screen."

So, I am getting confused (sorry). Would I be correct that in order to get PIP you'd give up bitstream?
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post #112 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by localnet View Post

When will the 2500 be available? Anyone even know?

Mike

My dealer was informed at CES that the 2500 will begin shipping in about a week to 10 days. He said they were showing a production unit jacked into their new Pre/Pro with a Marantz 1080p projector and 7.1 Snell system (new LCRs each costing $10,000). The image and sound, he said, was awesome. The demonstrator pointed out that the new HD formats are not automatically detected. You have to pull up the dvd audio menu to see what the disc offers and select the one you want. Also, he said it takes a while for everything to boot and connect. But once dialed in, it was the best he'd seen/heard.
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post #113 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 09:13 AM
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The pre-order for late January delivery is now online at Listenup.com.
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post #114 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 09:18 AM
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Can listenup.com confirm if the audio selections are for decoding TRUE HD / DTS MA to LPCM here with this player??

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #115 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 09:52 AM
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I can't believe this thing is supposed to start shipping in less than 2 weeks and no one yet knows for sure what the player can and can't do.
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post #116 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Can listenup.com confirm if the audio selections are for decoding TRUE HD / DTS MA to LPCM here with this player??

ListenUp's pre-order page uses the spec sheet that says it will. With the 2500's release so close, Denon really needs to get the correct information out there. This is important information that will be the determining factor as to whether quite a few people will buy this machine.
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post #117 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Can listenup.com confirm if the audio selections are for decoding TRUE HD / DTS MA to LPCM here with this player??

I called Denon and the rep who seemed to know his stuff said the 2500 will not convert TrueHD/DTS MA => LPCM. It will only bitstream those advance formats. It will send a LPCM track to the receiver is that is the format offered by the movie.

Bottom line is that the 2500 (especially for the price) is not a good option unless you have a HDMI 1.3 AVR that can accept TrueHD and DTS MA via bitstream.

The only thing I am still unclear on is how it handles the BD 1.1 features. My guess is that it will mix everything in the player using legacy DD and DTS. Which is fine with me since if I am listening to the director commentary I really don't think I would notice if the movie is being played with TrueHD or DD.
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post #118 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 10:26 AM
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I have TRUE HD decoding ni my Panny BD-10...I won't upgrade to the $2K 3800 just for DTS MA...I'll await a lower priced option... Too bad.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #119 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 11:18 AM
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Stupid question here.

I have the Denon 4308ci, the 2500, is this the unit I want?

I have a very sorry Sony BD player, and a Denon 2930ci DVD that actually blows the Sony away in pq.

Help a newby out here!

Mike
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post #120 of 2526 Old 01-11-2008, 11:41 AM
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I also have the 4308 and I am going to get the 2500. We don't need the player to decode the advanced audio, we just need the player to send it to our receiver to do the job. That is why this player is labeled as a transport. It just sends the raw signal for your receiver to process it. It will decode the legacy Dobly Digital and DTS because the blu-ray format requires it, but not the advanced codecs.
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