Denon's DVD-2500BTCI Blu-Ray Player OWNERS Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 2526 Old 07-29-2007, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I thought it would be nice to have a forum just for the new Denon DVD-2500BTCI blu-ray player. I love the idea of just having a transport and allowing the amp to do all of the work while lowering the cost over the more well equipped DVD-3800BDCI.


UPDATE: People now have these starting here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post12901383

Known issues so far:
-5db LFE channel on PCM (same as Panny BD players hmmm)
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post #2 of 2526 Old 07-29-2007, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post

I thought it would be nice to have a forum just for the new Denon DVD-2500BTCI blu-ray player. I love the idea of just having a transport and allowing the amp to do all of the work while lowering the cost over the more well equipped DVD-3800BDCI. Has anyone heard when this is going to be released? The Denon Article.

Do you mean the Denon DVD-3800BDCI?
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post #3 of 2526 Old 07-29-2007, 09:54 PM - Thread Starter
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No, I am interested in the model below the 3800BDCI. Here is the product info. I have the new Denon 4308 so I would be duplicating much of the hardware and software if I were to get the 3800BDCI.

DVD-2500BTCI Blu-ray Transport: High-Performance Connection to A/V Receivers
The DVD-2500BTCI is a leading edge Blu-ray Disc Transport that allows owners of advanced A/V receivers to add Blu-ray capability to their system and enjoy high definition video. The DVD-2500BTCI will natively output an HD audio bit-stream to a connected receiver via HDMI. Once this signal is accepted in the receiver, it can then be decoded into its native format including Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD Master Audio.

Secondary Video and Audio Decoders
In keeping with the guidelines mandated by the Blu-ray Association for BD-ROM Profile 1 version 1.1 players, both Denon Models DVD-3800BDCI and DVD-2500BTCI incorporate a secondary audio and video decoder. This allows for simultaneous playback of a secondary audio and video track which may be used for interactive audio and commentary and for picture-in-picture capability (respectively). Additional information (subtitles, audio streams, camera angles, trailers, games, etc.) can be downloaded from the Internet via computer and stored on a SD card that either player will accept. This content can be played with the original content of Blu-ray Discs.
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post #4 of 2526 Old 07-29-2007, 10:46 PM
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I'm also interested in the Denon 2500 BD transport, but I wonder how a player like this can send a compressed bitstream to an AVR for all discs. Supposedly the audio tracks on many current discs are mastered in such a way that the player is supposed to decompress and mix them before output.

Thoughts?
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post #5 of 2526 Old 07-29-2007, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I'm also interested in the Denon 2500 BD transport, but I wonder how a player like this can send a compressed bitstream to an AVR for all discs. Supposedly the audio tracks on many current discs are mastered in such a way that the player is supposed to decompress and mix them before output.

Thoughts?

That was my impression as well, as currently all blu-ray discs are authored in Advanced Mode, which means the player HAS to decode it. I may be wrong but thats how i interpreted it on the insiders thread.

Im keeping the PS3 and just upgrading to a hdmi amp for pcm

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post #6 of 2526 Old 07-29-2007, 11:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I think we would all like that question answered. If it can be done and done well this player might just get the nod.
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post #7 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 06:17 AM
 
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How'd you get a 4308? Mine doesn't come in until tomorrow.

There are so few THD discs that it doesn't matter, so MA is the only real issue ATM. BD is a complete cluster. It seems like it will take another year to get players, discs and receivers where they need to be. Too many cooks.
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post #8 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 06:28 AM
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I am interested in this player also.

Now you have my interest in "adavanced mode" decoding. What is this about? Link? I haven't heard of that yet.

I was under the impression the reason the player had to do the decoding was because there wasn't a receiver/pre-pro that could decode the bitstream. Now with the onkyo/integra products coming out(which claim to decode advanced audio), we don't have a player that will pass the bitstream to test. I didn't think it was a software issue but a hardware issue.

Talk about the chicken or the egg................
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post #9 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 06:36 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post

I am interested in this player also.

Now you have my interest in "adavanced mode" decoding. What is this about? Link? I haven't heard of that yet.

I was under the impression the reason the player had to do the decoding was because there wasn't a receiver/pre-pro that could decode the bitstream. Now with the onkyo/integra products coming out(which claim to decode advanced audio), we don't have a player that will pass the bitstream to test. I didn't think it was a software issue but a hardware issue.

Talk about the chicken or the egg................

The Denons will do it, but they need a player that will pass it. The XA2 might, but that's it ATM.
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post #10 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim GoodBooty View Post

How'd you get a 4308? Mine doesn't come in until tomorrow.

There are so few THD discs that it doesn't matter, so MA is the only real issue ATM. BD is a complete cluster. It seems like it will take another year to get players, discs and receivers where they need to be. Too many cooks.

I was lucky enough to find a local dealer who had a few in stock so I paid TAX and have the comfort of working with a local business.
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post #11 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 10:42 AM
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I gather that we still don't have a price for the 2500? I figured they'd announce the price for it along with the 3800 press release.
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post #12 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 11:34 AM
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I've read in several articles that $1,199 is the asking price for the DVD-2500BTCI.

That's a bit more realistic than $1,999 for a first gen blu-ray player, but I don't know if it'll be worth the cost if in a year you can get cheaper, better models.

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post #13 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 12:02 PM
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That does sound interesting. So does this unit have any kind of video processing? Or is it pretty much bare bones and the video upscaling is the responsibility of your Video Processor or A/V receiver?
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post #14 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 12:20 PM
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Yes. It sounds like Denon dropped the advanced audio and video processing on this model so people will have to use their own receivers with built-in decoders and scalers. As someone who plans on owning a AVR-3808CI, this would work for me. However there's yet no infomation on what this thing will do for standard DVD's, and since I really want one deck to handle all my movies, I'll probably choose something else.

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post #15 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post

I am interested in this player also.

Now you have my interest in "adavanced mode" decoding. What is this about? Link? I haven't heard of that yet.

I was under the impression the reason the player had to do the decoding was because there wasn't a receiver/pre-pro that could decode the bitstream. Now with the onkyo/integra products coming out(which claim to decode advanced audio), we don't have a player that will pass the bitstream to test. I didn't think it was a software issue but a hardware issue.

Talk about the chicken or the egg................

I did a little more research on the subject of "Advanced Authoring" and it appears to only affect HD-DVD players, not Blu-ray.

Taken from the "Why you don't need HDMI 1.3" thread:
"Some newer receivers have HDMI 1.3 along with the ability to decode DTS-HD and TrueHD. This ability is not as useful as it would seem. Firstly, there are no current players can send these as bitstreams (meaning the actual compressed signal stored on the optical disc.) Denon has announced a Blu-ray player that can do this, but no known HD DVD players can do this, and they may never. Because of a feature on HD-DVD called known as "advanced content" (menus over video, PIP, Information overlays, and the audio present in these features), players need to be able to decode the soundtrack and mix advanced content audio with it. Which is another reason players provide internal decoding. "
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post #16 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 02:05 PM
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I am a huge Denon fan, but I can't justify $2000 for a blu-ray player. $1000 or so? Maybe. So, I m trying to figure out how this device will work.

I have a 4306 with an open hdmi input. What audio formats will my AVR support coming from the 2500CI?

Since the 4306 also does upscaling, then SD DVDs should play just fine as well, right?

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post #17 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I did a little more research on the subject of "Advanced Authoring" and it appears to only affect HD-DVD players, not Blu-ray.

Taken from the "Why you don't need HDMI 1.3" thread:
"Some newer receivers have HDMI 1.3 along with the ability to decode DTS-HD and TrueHD. This ability is not as useful as it would seem. Firstly, there are no current players can send these as bitstreams (meaning the actual compressed signal stored on the optical disc.) Denon has announced a Blu-ray player that can do this, but no known HD DVD players can do this, and they may never. Because of a feature on HD-DVD called known as "advanced content" (menus over video, PIP, Information overlays, and the audio present in these features), players need to be able to decode the soundtrack and mix advanced content audio with it. Which is another reason players provide internal decoding. "

Currently yes, but what happens after BD 1.1 when the new movies have this PIP etc, in which case the disc may have to be advanced authored to mix sound, what would happen? Will this player not play any AA discs if they should surface?

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post #18 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dobieck1 View Post

Currently yes, but what happens after BD 1.1 when the new movies have this PIP etc, in which case the disc may have to be advanced authored to mix sound, what would happen? Will this player not play any AA discs if they should surface?

Actually from the profile sticky

BD-Video 1.1:

256 MB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required

This appears to be heading to advanced authored discs. Why else would they want secondary audio decoding in the player itself?

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post #19 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 04:06 PM
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As was asked in another thread about dropping Denon link, from an AVF forum audio guru, it now looks like with the HDMI 1.3a spec, HDMI will now include Audio Rate Control.

from the post by welwynnick


Quote:


The Audio Rate Control feature allows a Sink to slightly and continuously adjust the audio clock rate of the Source in order to match the Sink's crystal-based audio clock. The Sink controls the Source's audio clock rate with the CEC command. See CEC Supplement section CEC 13.16 for details. Source ACR behavior is not affected by Audio Rate Control. When Audio Rate Control is enabled the Source shall continue to generate correct ACR packets that accurately reflect the current (possibly adjusted) audio clock rate.

Now, doesn't that sound just like adaptive rate control, and something rather like iLink over HMDI?

i think this is the best reason why no denon link.

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post #20 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 04:26 PM
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for adavanced content AUDIO

maybe the audio gets mixed in the player via the standard and secondary audio encoders, but then outputted to bitstream, instead of going to on player truHD, DTS MA decoders etc.

so the recievers just do the end result. how would that be any different? as its the standard and seconday audio encoders that do the mixing not the truHD, DTS MA decoders

Dustin
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post #21 of 2526 Old 07-30-2007, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gandley View Post

for adavanced AUDIO

maybe the audio gets mixed in the player via the standard and secondary audio encoders, but then outputted to bitstream, instead of going to on player truHD, DTS MA decoders etc.

so the recievers just do the end result. how would that be any different? as its the standard and seconday audio encoders that do the mixing not the truHD, DTS MA decoders

I really have no idea how that works. That could be the case. I would find out more about though before buying. I was just tossing out something to keep in mind.

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post #22 of 2526 Old 07-31-2007, 02:13 PM
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Maybe I wasn't clear with my question:

Does anybody know/speculate what audio options will be available if I run this unit through the hdmi input of my 4306?

Mike Rife

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post #23 of 2526 Old 07-31-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRinDenver View Post

Maybe I wasn't clear with my question:

Does anybody know/speculate what audio options will be available if I run this unit through the hdmi input of my 4306?

Audio-Signalverarbeitung 4306
- HDMI-Repeater / Yes
- 2-Kanal LPCM / 24-Bit, 176.4/192 kHz
- 6-Kanal LPCM / 24-Bit, 88.2/96 kHz
- 8-Kanal LPCM / 24-Bit, 88.2/96 kHz
- DSD (SACD-Datenstrom) / No
- Bitstream Dolby Digital, DTS / Yes
- Bitstream Dolby Digital Plus / No
- Bitstream Dolby TrueHD / No
- Bitstream DTS-HD / NO
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post #24 of 2526 Old 07-31-2007, 02:47 PM
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this is great to see - finally home theater owners don't have to purchase a great player and have it loaded with great sounding DACs and analogue outputs that I'll never use because I'm decoding and converting externally.

Woo hoo!
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post #25 of 2526 Old 07-31-2007, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRinDenver View Post

Maybe I wasn't clear with my question:

Does anybody know/speculate what audio options will be available if I run this unit through the hdmi input of my 4306?

My semi-educated speculation would be that you probably wouldn't be able to decode Dolby TrueHD and the other advanced audio codecs because the '4306 does not have HDMI 1.3 input capability. Nor could you feed the signal through multi-channel analog cables and do such decoding because the player doesn't have the capability.
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post #26 of 2526 Old 07-31-2007, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Osadciw View Post

this is great to see - finally home theater owners don't have to purchase a great player and have it loaded with great sounding DACs and analogue outputs that I'll never use because I'm decoding and converting externally.

Woo hoo!

Man, THAT is the truth!!!
I have been bitching about that forever.

IMO, all audio should be handled by a standalone box (aka, surround processor, receiver, pre/pro, etc.) dedicated to the task.
Otherwise, you end up paying for features/chips/circuits that you DON'T really utilize.
All we really need are TRANSPORTS (either audio or video)...in this way, upgrading various equipment periodically is less expensive (and less irritating ).

Hooray for a future of SEPARATES!

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post #27 of 2526 Old 08-01-2007, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DK_Titan View Post

Audio-Signalverarbeitung 4306
- HDMI-Repeater / Yes
- 2-Kanal LPCM / 24-Bit, 176.4/192 kHz
- 6-Kanal LPCM / 24-Bit, 88.2/96 kHz
- 8-Kanal LPCM / 24-Bit, 88.2/96 kHz
- DSD (SACD-Datenstrom) / No
- Bitstream Dolby Digital, DTS / Yes
- Bitstream Dolby Digital Plus / No
- Bitstream Dolby TrueHD / No
- Bitstream DTS-HD / NO


And from s2silber:

My semi-educated speculation would be that you probably wouldn't be able to decode Dolby TrueHD and the other advanced audio codecs because the '4306 does not have HDMI 1.3 input capability. Nor could you feed the signal through multi-channel analog cables and do such decoding because the player doesn't have the capability.


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post #28 of 2526 Old 08-01-2007, 12:10 PM
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Is the release date for this player the same as the 3800? I was just wondering since it appears to be a bit more simplified if it was due out sooner then 4Q this year?
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post #29 of 2526 Old 08-01-2007, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlhjr34 View Post

Is the release date for this player the same as the 3800? I was just wondering since it appears to be a bit more simplified if it was due out sooner then 4Q this year?

It so far seems to be going to be released at the same time. But I imagine we won't get much new info on it until the trade shows at the end of the month. Once they're underway, expect tons of new announcments.

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post #30 of 2526 Old 08-02-2007, 07:50 AM
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So, if I have a receiver such as Denon's AVR-3808CI that'll handle all the audio decoding and upconverting of standard DVD's that the DVD-2500BTCI doesn't seem to do, will 1080p signals sent from the Blu-ray disks be processed at all? I just realized that if I set the video processor of the receiver to upconvert to the native resolution of my display, it may do it for both standard DVD's (which I want it to do) as well as Blu-ray disks (which I don't want it to touch, just pass). Therefore in order to keep the receiver from doing anything but pass 1080p signals, I'll either have to change the output on the receiver each time I put in a DVD or Blu-ray disk, or I'll want to use a separate DVD player instead of the DVD-2500BTCI for watching standard DVD's.

Any speculations?

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