Blu Ray's 'unfinished' spec....Thank goodness! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Well,

As many know the problem with Blu Ray is the unfinished spec (if you listened to all the the anti-BD folks in the other forum). I am happy that it is unfinished at this point as playback is stable...... But the BD players are solid and firmware updates update features rather than fix things (or create new issues) and as such, there are far fewer BD updates (we don't need so many). The BD updatess are almost always successful in doing what they are supposed to without creating another issue..

I own the XA2 and the Panny, arguably the best of each format. So these are my impressions.

Well, another HD DVD firmware update and a new problem with audio (lipsync with 1080P24)....

I don't know what to think is better..

1. Finish a spec (HD DVD) and, then, later fix the problems of rushing the final spec with multiple firmware updates over many months or years

or

2. Update the spec along (BD) the way and add things, along with a stable player as you go. Along theway, the player always performs reliably.

Blu Ray players in general are more stable and have far less disc playback issues....but an incomplete spec. HD DVD has a completed spec but 2 years worth of fixes....

You just can't win..... bottom line, the completed HD DVD completed spec isn't looking so great to me at this point... I'll take the slow steady approach with less hiccups along the way.

Anyone else??

You did notice that the final HD-DVD spec from 2005 got "real" final with the May 2007 revision. And the "new" 51GB disc is another version of a final product. In other words, it´s PR spin from the HD-DVD camp. If you keep repeating a half lie over and over again it becomes truth. Check Amirs post history, low bitrate VC-1 is more than enough, then check fuzzy VC-1 Caps, then check the thread about Nature's Journey and the need for high VC-1 bitrates. And look at the Low Bitrate AVC encodes keeping up with VC-1.

Then take a look at the technical issues there is with so many HD-DVD players and Discs, and you can see why the HD-DVD camp needs to make noise about Blu-Ray flaws, they don´t their own flaws to be noticed.

Halflies becomes truth, truth becomes facts it´s politics and it sucks.

Love!
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post #92 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by RBFilms View Post

I did not realize that was the question.

We were 100% in spec from the begining....and were 100% within spec out the door. All issues were resolved by firmware updates to players and updates to the professional tools where required.

I would go as far as to say that this disc had more QC than any other BD product released.

Thanks for the response Rich!
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post #93 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tintin1001 View Post

You did notice that the final HD-DVD spec from 2005 got "real" final with the May 2007 revision.

That's not a change in spec... YET.

The dvd spec has been around for a long time yet they're still adding things to it... injet printable disk.... the lite scribe disk... etc. There is no difference here with the 51gig disk.

What WILL make a difference is if they can't get the 51gig disk to work in existing machines. Then HD DVD will be in the same boat as Blu ray with their spec update in October. I don't see this happening however since the new disk was officially accepted by the DVD forum (something that Sony has a habit of bypassing, BTW)

HD DVD has done the best job that they can at setting up a minimum spec for their format and future proofing their machines... a FAR better job the Blu Ray anyway. A 3xDVD will play in ALL machines... not just some, like Sony. Not with standing, there is a lot of hardware inside a HD DVD player that just plain is not getting used right now. As an example... the 2 USB ports on the front of my Tosh A1 serve no useful purpose at the moment... but they can with some simple firmware upgrading... the hardware is there if it is needed (or wanted)

Now does this mean that the HD DVD player ARE future proof? Certainly not... the future is not as predictable as one would like... but HD DVD has gone the distance in doing the best that they can. The same can not be said for blu ray. If for example interactivity was always planned by BD from the start as people claim.... then how come there is such question and doubt as to the existing machines' capacity for interactive behavior? How come modems are not mandatory?

Point blank.... HD DVD has done a much better job at thinking about the future than BD EVER has. BD is JUST NOW beginning to understand that this is a pretty important thing. It's like I said some time ago... BD has done a terrible job at planning. They have a lot of hardware out there, but none if it is very well thought out... none of it fits together very well.... thanks to a sad lack of standardization and an official spec.
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post #94 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 07:16 AM
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I have both the PS3 and XA2 (had a A1 as well). Bottom line is I have NEVER had any issue with the PS3 as far as playback. My HD-DVD players I have had lock ups, freezes, wont play some rented discs (even though they dont look that bad), A/V get out of sync, etc...and this is normal from all the reading I have done as many have had these issues. Just the nature of the current HD-DVD hardware/software state.

I love both formats since I just want the best movie experiences possible. As far as PQ goes, they seem pretty even to me. AQ I have not really experienced fully as I am not setup for lossless sound at this point (however the times I have used the analog on the A1 it sounded fantastic). Stability wise though, no question Blu-ray is better, especially with disc playback.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #95 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 09:16 AM
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I can say right back to that that I have the A1 and it has performed flawlessly, and I use it pretty hard. On the other hand, there have been complaints about the PS3 ranging from loud fan noises to premature burning out. Now does this mean the technology is bad in either direction? No. It just means that a few people got defective machines. Try not to read more than there is.
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post #96 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 09:42 AM
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Considering the unfinished specs may mean my $1,000 player may not be able to perform all functions for the format as they change I am much happier with a stable format that continually updates to correct any possible issues
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post #97 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

I can say right back to that that I have the A1 and it has performed flawlessly, and I use it pretty hard. On the other hand, there have been complaints about the PS3 ranging from loud fan noises to premature burning out. Now does this mean the technology is bad in either direction? No. It just means that a few people got defective machines. Try not to read more than there is.


My A1 that I own was the worst piece of A/V equipment I have ever owned, until I sent it to Toshiba for repair. It is now flawless. Imagine the poor souls that have NOT sent in their player.

I have never had a problem with my PS3. It is a workhorse.

If you want to see unfinished spec, just go to the hd dvd software forum and see how many "problems with ***** disc not loading/boiling/audio lock ups/av sync......" threads there are. Not as many on the Blu Ray software forum.


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Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Considering the unfinished specs may mean my $1,000 player may not be able to perform all functions for the format as they change I am much happier with a stable format that continually updates to correct any possible issues

Tom did your first DVD player have progressive output? DTS output? How about DVI? Maybe HDMI? That nice up conversion chip? Probably not (unless you were a very, very late adopter).

This is the name of the game. You have to upgrade to have the cutting edge technology. It will happen with both of these formats. It will happen with the next one.
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post #98 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 10:48 AM
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IMO, the whole issue with revising specifications is EXCLUDING CURRENT OWNERS.

Blu-Ray's updates exclude the base, except maybe the PS3. HD-DVDs updates are likely to be enjoyed by every HD-DVD owner. Big, big difference.
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post #99 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven975 View Post

IMO, the whole issue with revising specifications is EXCLUDING CURRENT OWNERS.

Blu-Ray's updates exclude the base, except maybe the PS3. HD-DVDs updates are likely to be enjoyed by every HD-DVD owner. Big, big difference.

Not really, I will never get to watch 1080p/24 on my HD A1.
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post #100 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have both the PS3 and XA2 (had a A1 as well). Bottom line is I have NEVER had any issue with the PS3 as far as playback. My HD-DVD players I have had lock ups, freezes, wont play some rented discs (even though they dont look that bad), A/V get out of sync, etc...and this is normal from all the reading I have done as many have had these issues. Just the nature of the current HD-DVD hardware/software state.

I love both formats since I just want the best movie experiences possible. As far as PQ goes, they seem pretty even to me. AQ I have not really experienced fully as I am not setup for lossless sound at this point (however the times I have used the analog on the A1 it sounded fantastic). Stability wise though, no question Blu-ray is better, especially with disc playback.

So because your PS3 outperforms your stand alone HD DVD players, Blu-ray is better?

Think about your comparison here for a moment. The PS3 has perhaps the most advanced processor available. It has dedicated RAM. It has a dedicated video processor with its own RAM. It has endless GB of HDD storage. The thing is a computer.

I could make the same argument with my 360. It has many of the same advantages over stand alones that you cite with your PS3. Why? B/C it is a powerful computer, not a stand alone.

It is tremendously shortsided and unfair to come to the conclusion that b/c your PS3 performs better than stand alones (it better!) Blu-ray has better playback. Just try thinking critically about that before you make broad generalizations about which format is better.
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post #101 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 11:52 AM
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I'm a big Blu-Ray fan, but movies are movies and I want to watch them. I'm willing to go out and spend a few hundred on an HD-DVD player but for personal reasons will not buy anything Toshiba. So I'm looking forward to more manufacturers building non-dual format HD-DVD players. I've had excellent experiences with Samsung, Sony and Mitsubishi. I love my PS3. Even if Blu-Ray fell flat on it's face tomorrow I'd still love it. We all know Sony won't be building an HD-DVD player any time soon so maybe we will see something non-dual format from Samsung and Mitsubishi. Hopefully in the $299 range!

I have no idea what the Blu-Ray companies are doing as far as the specs go. My personal feeling is that they were hoping to have three different price points. The low end would be 1.0 players, the mid level would have the 1.1 spec and the higher end players would be 2.0. I think it's a model that would work but that model got smashed when Toshiba 's spec included all three at a cheaper price. Now the Blu-Ray companies are scrambling. Oh well I have no idea just guessing and tossing out an opinion. Take it how you like.

Rodney
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post #102 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post

Tom did your first DVD player have progressive output? DTS output? How about DVI? Maybe HDMI? That nice up conversion chip? Probably not (unless you were a very, very late adopter)..

What does that mean, if I buy a new product its on me if it only works for a year?

This is not some beta testing period and I did not purchase with the understanding or agreement that the player would only remain fully compatible with the format for a year or two. Paying $1,000 for a player I expect it to work for more then a year and that the blu-ray player should be able to perform all Blu-ray functionality that is available on Blu-ray releases.

The BDA has been advertising advanced features that are still not even available on the format and although these CE companies were aware mandatory hardware requirements due out within a year for changing profiles they chose not to include those components.

Additionally I feel these companies have intentionally misled consumers by advertising features directly above players that are not even capable of performing these same functions. And I believe that none of these companies made any reasonable effort to inform the consumer of these differences or that the player would not be compatible with these features in the near future.

I know I am not satisfied with finding out about all of these differences after spending as much as I have on my blu-ray player and certainly will seek retribution if / when my blu-ray player is unable to perform functionality on any title releases.

This of course is my own opinion and perhaps I am the only one but I would think others as well would expect there blu-ray player to be able to perform blu-ray functionality for more then a year. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see class action suits popping up in the near future.
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post #103 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post


If you want to see unfinished spec, just go to the hd dvd software forum and see how many "problems with ***** disc not loading/boiling/audio lock ups/av sync......" threads there are. Not as many on the Blu Ray software forum.



LOL.... yeah...... ooooookay, what ever you say!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...archid=6950638
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post #104 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post

If you want to see unfinished spec, just go to the hd dvd software forum and see how many "problems with ***** disc not loading/boiling/audio lock ups/av sync......" threads there are. Not as many on the Blu Ray software forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

LOL.... yeah...... ooooookay, what ever you say!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...archid=6950638


Last time I checked 50 is a not as many as 116.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...archid=6950711
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post #105 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

What does that mean, if I buy a new product its on me if it only works for a year?

The BDA has been advertising advanced features that are still not even available on the format and although these CE companies were aware mandatory hardware requirements due out within a year for changing profiles they chose not to include those components.


I know I am not satisfied with finding out about all of these differences after spending as much as I have on my blu-ray player and certainly will seek retribution if / when my blu-ray player is unable to perform functionality on any title releases.

This of course is my own opinion and perhaps I am the only one but I would think others as well would expect there blu-ray player to be able to perform blu-ray functionality for more then a year. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see class action suits popping up in the near future.

Tom, I am all for having a fully function Blu Ray player on the market at the moment. I would be the first in line. But as an early adopter you give up certain features that will be available on later generations of hardware. We don't know what will happen on the 1.1/1.0 discs at the moment with existing hardware. It is all speculation at this point.

I am more concerned with lack DTS HDMA and Bitstream audio than I am BD-J (especially web based content). Some of it will be nice to have, but I want lossless audio(bitstream preferred) and 1080p/24 off the disc without any kind of processing. That is just my opinion.

BigBarney, glad I gave you a little laugh today. I laugh everytime I see a thread about "CofM" not playing.
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post #106 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 01:25 PM
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I agree with the original poster: thank god that my $1000 player may not be compatible with future disks...as in it won't be able to play them. Blu 1.1 disks will probably not even work in past players (http://www.listenup.com/content/part...dge.aug.07.php). At the very least, some players will not work with 1.1 disks.
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post #107 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 01:44 PM
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Pete,

That is pure speculation, and it does not make any sense. If it actually got to the point where newer discs would not work with 1.0 players(which I doubt will be a problem, much less an unsolvable one), either the CE vendors would offer replacement programs OR the studios would NOT use the newer features. Studios will not release products that may not work at consumers homes, and CEs have a brand to protect if the problem is isolated...

Allan
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post #108 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 01:55 PM
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Ill check in with my experiences here as well...

HD-A1 - Many many problems with lip-sync
HD-XA2 - Only one problem with updating via the ethernet cable or accessing online material

Sammy BD-P1000 - Lip sync issues and lock up issues
Pio BDP-94HD - Solid player. No issues except SUPER SLOW start up times (not as bad as the HD-A1 but worse than my XA2)

-Evangelo2
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post #109 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 05:55 PM
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[quote=phansson;11648312]Tom, I am all for having a fully function Blu Ray player on the market at the moment. I would be the first in line.

But as an early adopter you give up certain features that will be available on later generations of hardware.

Where is this "early adopter agreement", "buyer beware / As-IS clause" or "Still Under Construction waiver"?

This is not a beta test. This is a finished product being sold to consumers for a very expensive price. No one is giving up rights of whether or not it will continue to fully function within a year, its not even being explained to consumers that this will happen.

Quote:


We don't know what will happen on the 1.1/1.0 discs at the moment with existing hardware. It is all speculation at this point.

It is not speculation, it is fact. Profile 1.1 has mandatory hardware requirements that are different then what is in profile 1.0 players.

Quote:


I am more concerned with lack DTS HDMA and Bitstream audio than I am BD-J (especially web based content).

Some of it will be nice to have, but I want lossless audio(bitstream preferred) and 1080p/24 off the disc without any kind of processing. That is just my opinion.

I do agree with part of the above statement. About one third of all titles released already have a audio track that not a single player can decode.
Certainly these companies are implying how great these advanced audio tracks are for the format but in reality I have titles I've owned for almost a year already that still not playing these tracks as would be expected.

I am not concerned so much about the lossless audio tracks for either format. To me these are barely noticeble differences. I would much rather have a dedicated 7.1 audio track then worry whether or not it is lossless.

Your opinion on wanting these tracks and 1080p/24 is certainly understandable. The whole lossless tracks, 1080p >> 1080i >>1080p conversions, and 1080p24 have been said to be barely noticable and I do agree with this until its proven otherwise.

As to BD-J, BDLive, PIP, Interactive Content and network connectivity. As for my own opinion these options are the most important (besides PQ).
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post #110 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Where is this "early adopter agreement", "buyer beware / As-IS clause" or "Still Under Construction waiver"?

It is not speculation, it is fact. Profile 1.1 has mandatory hardware requirements that are different then what is in profile 1.0 players.

I missed the "early adopter agreement" also. My point is when you buy something early, you don't expect it to do EVERYTHING the format will eventually do. Not gonna happen. I also didn't sign an agreement that all of those features would be present at the time of purchase.

It is speculation that those 1.1 discs will not play the movie in a 1.0 player. Those 1st generation BR players might just have the online features blacked out. Don't really know. I am aware, 1st generation players, will not let you download online content, online polls, online interactive features, online special interviews with the cast members, etc,etc....

I for one will believe the discs will play in 1st generation (minus online content) until I see that they don't.
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post #111 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomsHT View Post

Your opinion on wanting these tracks and 1080p/24 is certainly understandable. The whole lossless tracks, 1080p >> 1080i >>1080p conversions, and 1080p24 have been said to be barely noticable and I do agree with this until its proven otherwise.

Tom, I also have a projector that will accept a 24hz input and display it @96hz, yes I can tell a difference. Is it night and day? No but it is there.

Blu Ray doesn't do all that 1080p >> 1080i >>1080p stuff anyway (like hd dvd). I beleive all of the 1080p/24fps players output the decoded stream without any kind of processing.

Also, lossless IMHO, is incredible. Placebo effect? Maybe, but my system shines like no other with a lossless track.
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post #112 of 159 Old 09-17-2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post

Blu Ray doesn't do all that 1080p >> 1080i >>1080p stuff anyway (like hd dvd). I beleive all of the 1080p/24fps players output the decoded stream without any kind of processing.
D


six to one, half dozen to the other. there's no difference between those two methods on good equipment.

and, yes, many blu-ray players do the deinterlacing thing, too.
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post #113 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wostertag View Post

Last time I checked 50 is a not as many as 116.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/searc...archid=6950711

Yup... that about sounds right when you consider there are 20 pages in the HD DVD player forum compared to 9 in the BD player forum... looks pretty even to me.
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post #114 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phansson View Post

My point is when you buy something early, you don't expect it to do EVERYTHING the format will eventually do. Not gonna happen.

Why should it not happen??

When you buy something of this nature you AT LEAST should expect it to manage the mandatory minimums... and that's the problem with BD... there are none really.

I'm a video editor. In order to sell my product I have the be able to KNOW that the disks I create will play in a clients' machine. I can run off 150 HD DVD's (3xdvd) and hand them out to the school football league secure in the knowledge that every one of the HD DVD players will play my product. I can't do that with blu ray. AVCHD on dvd-r (just for example) only works on SOME machines. Lord knows how many returned disks and refunds to be handed out. Life for guys like us was a total disaster area when they went to war over dvd-r vs dvd+r. Fortunately 98% of the machines have now adopted both disk types because we were starting to lose money there for a while having to customize each disk for a given person.

This is what standardization is all about.... setting everybody on the same page so we all know what's what. HD DVD has achieved that goal to a much higher level than BD. And let's not confuse the idea of an official spec... the idea is to set a mandatory MINIMUM and not necessarily a maximum. In other words all machines come out MUST be able to do this that and the other thing... but there is nothing in a spec setting that can't be expanded. So with an official spec you are getting some kind of reasonable GUARANTY at the LEAST you can expect.... which is far better then being in the dark as with BD.

Bottom line... Sony has not issued an official spec because they want the flexibility to change up, down and all over the place without having to think about their PRESENT customers. HD DVD on the other hand has set forth an obligation to not only new customers... but the existing ones too.
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post #115 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 07:38 AM
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TomsHT and BigBarney,

Do either of you have Directv?

I have to upgrade my receiver right now ( my hd dvr is 2 years old) because my currrent receiver will not decode Mpeg4. They are adding 100 hd channels this fall (supposedly), but you have to upgrade your receiver and satellite.

What is the difference??
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post #116 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

Why should it not happen??

Bottom line... Sony has not issued an official spec because they want the flexibility to change up, down and all over the place without having to think about their PRESENT customers. HD DVD on the other hand has set forth an obligation to not only new customers... but the existing ones too.

51GB Triple Layer ROMs may NOT be compatible with existing HD-DVD players per this article on Tuesday, September 11, 2007.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=21372

Quote:


However, the new HD DVD-ROM discs may not be compatible with the first generation HD DVD players, since their triple-layer nature could require the use of spherical aberration compensation techniques for reading, a feature that is not currently supported by the HD DVD hardware. The DVD Forum's representatives said that the issue is still under study.

Sounds like they are back to the drawing board or will break their standards afterall.

I want my HDM
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post #117 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Calamus View Post

51GB Triple Layer ROMs may NOT be compatible with existing HD-DVD players per this article on Tuesday, September 11, 2007.
http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News...x?NewsId=21372

Sounds like they are back to the drawing board or will break their standards afterall.

Another article here...
http://arstechnica.com/journals/hard...orage-capacity

According to Screen Digest, the DVD Forum gave Toshiba's 51GB disc its stamp of approval at the end of August. The announcement does leave some people wondering whether current systems will be able to support the new technology.

When Ars spoke with Alan Bell, the executive vice president and chief technology officer for Paramount Pictures, he said that he was encouraged about the upcoming players from Toshiba that would meet all of HD DVD's specifications, as well as feature the "online [capabilities]" of the format. Bell was certainly aware of the new disc's imminent approval. The question is whether current HD DVD players will be able to read three-layer discs with a firmware update, or whether some hardware will just remain completely unable to read the new discs.
When Ars contacted the HD DVD camp to ask whether current owners of HD DVD players would need to upgrade entirely, a spokesperson responded, "Toshiba will study the performance of current HD DVD players with the disc after the standard is approved by the DVD Forum. It is premature to speculate about it now."

I want my HDM
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post #118 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 09:05 AM
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It is premature to speculate about it now."

This is probably the most important quote from the article. Patience my young Padawan.

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post #119 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 09:12 AM
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You got caught in a lie. And was busted by the discs author of all people...

Funniest thing I read all day long!!!

I am still laughing!!! Rich's timing was perfect!!! Owned!!!








































































I'm still laughing!

After subsequent clarification by the disc author, my question is , ... are you still laughing?

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post #120 of 159 Old 09-18-2007, 09:26 AM
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Here is another interesting article about the 51gb disc.

http://www.betanews.com/article/Tosh...All/1189716943
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