Blu Ray's 'unfinished' spec....Thank goodness! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Well,

As many know the problem with Blu Ray is the unfinished spec (if you listened to all the the anti-BD folks in the other forum). I am happy that it is unfinished at this point as playback is stable...... But the BD players are solid and firmware updates update features rather than fix things (or create new issues) and as such, there are far fewer BD updates (we don't need so many). The BD updatess are almost always successful in doing what they are supposed to without creating another issue..

I own the XA2 and the Panny, arguably the best of each format. So these are my impressions.

Well, another HD DVD firmware update and a new problem with audio (lipsync with 1080P24)....

I don't know what to think is better..

1. Finish a spec (HD DVD) and, then, later fix the problems of rushing the final spec with multiple firmware updates over many months or years

or

2. Update the spec along (BD) the way and add things, along with a stable player as you go. Along theway, the player always performs reliably.

Blu Ray players in general are more stable and have far less disc playback issues....but an incomplete spec. HD DVD has a completed spec but 2 years worth of fixes....

You just can't win..... bottom line, the completed HD DVD completed spec isn't looking so great to me at this point... I'll take the slow steady approach with less hiccups along the way.

Anyone else??

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #2 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Well,

As many know the problem with Blu Ray is the unfinished spec (if you listened to all the the anti-BD folks in the other forum..... But the BD players are solid and firmware updates update features rather than fix things (or create new issues) and as such, there are far fewer BD updates (we don't need them). The Bd updatess are always successful.

I own the XA2 and the Panny, arguably the best of each format. So these are my impressions.

Well, another HD DVD firmware update and a new problem with audio (lipsync with 1080P24)....

I don't know what to think is better..

1. Finish a spec and fix the problems of rushing the spec in multiple firmware updates

or

2. Update the spec along the way and add things, along with a stable player as you go.

Blu Ray players in general are more stable and have far less disc playback issues....but an incomplete spec. HD DVD has a completed spec but 2 years worth of fixes....

You just can't win..... bottom line, the completed HD DVD completed spec isn't looking so great to me at this point... I'll take the slow steady approach with less hiccups along the way.

I think there's a debate in the HD DVD section, people aren't sure if it's true 24fps or if it's 60i 3:2 to 24?... because it stay in 24 for DVD too, i know that Gary seem a little pissed at this..

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #3 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 04:11 PM
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Nice try bland, but, I'm not buying it..... I've had my A1 for over one year now and never had a problem with it. The truth is that both formats have their problems, but the two are approaching those problems with a different model. With BD, you're sh!t out of luck if you have a current player and want the 1.1 or 2.0 spec. With HD-DVD, Toshiba can always issue a firmware upgrade.

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post #4 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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SO, you are saying that no other person has had a problem with the HDa1? I won't take to time to go through the numerous 500 posts problem threads....It was a finished spec, but problems exist (and new ones created).

I say, an unfinished spec has been a good thing (in terms of playback stability and lack of issues with software).

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #5 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 04:39 PM
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Oh no, there have been plenty of problems with the A1. There have also been plenty of problems with the various Blu-ray players on the market, including the fact that all current players will not play certain 1.1 or 2.0 content. Now, you've made it blatantly clear on this forum that you could care less about extras. I, however, like to view the extras of a movie after my initial viewing, including re-watching it with the various PIP and commentary features. Furthermore, since every movie studio has tried to cram every extra they possibly can in their movies (excluding Fox), it is obvious that I'm not the only one who cares about extras.

I'm not like most hard core enthusiasts on here in that I don't constantly upgrade my equipment. When I buy something, I'm going to get about three to four years of usage out of it before I buy a replacement for that product. I could easily drop a grand on a Blu-ray player, but I'm not going to until I see players that at least support 1.1, and no firmware upgrade can fix that on any of the current players. If I didn't care about extras I would have a BR player sitting in my rack right now. Unfortunately, I do care about them and will wait until this cumbersome unfinished spec is worked out.

To sum up my argument, I'll say this. For all the owners of HD-DVD, some have had players that have no problems while other have players that do. Firmware upgrades can fix this. For all the owners of Blu-ray, ALL have players that will have problems with any 1.1 content, and these problems cannot be fixed with a firmware upgrade. Again, if you don't care about extras, this topic is meaningless. If you do care, it is a dealbreaker.

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post #6 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 05:18 PM
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That is a pretty sad argument. Toshiba's issues don't have anything to do with the HD-DVD spec, they are manufacturer related. True, at this point, that may be a semantic distinction as Toshiba is the only one making the players.

However, buggy as they may be FOR SOME, HD-DVD players are set to play any disc now and in the future. The same cannot be said for Blu-Ray, which is frankly, damn pathetic at this stage in the game. The manfs should be EMBARASSED to be releasing 3rd gen players in the next month that cannot do Final Profile. Unbelievable.

Not a fanboy here, more like a former Blu-Ray hopeful who is becoming more and more disillusioned as time rolls on....
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post #7 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 05:43 PM - Thread Starter
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It is not an argument bt an observation.

Both formats were rushed to market.

One completed its spec, one did not.

THe one that completed things early has run into many playback issues along the way, while the other with the incomplete spec, as a whole, has had essentially no playback issues to speak of.

Again, just an observation that came as the new Tosh firmware appears to have created a new issue as a promised feature was enabled.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #8 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 05:55 PM
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You can always rely on thebland to stir the pot a bit...


By the way, congrats on Danilynn's first birthday!

I miss the rosewood sides on the old Pioneer Elite equipment!

Blu-ray - 576


HD DVD - 81

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post #9 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Well,

As many know the problem with Blu Ray is the unfinished spec (if you listened to all the the anti-BD folks in the other forum). I am happy that it is unfinished at this point as playback is stable...... But the BD players are solid and firmware updates update features rather than fix things (or create new issues) and as such, there are far fewer BD updates (we don't need so many). The BD updatess are almost always successful in doing what they are supposed to without creating another issue..

I own the XA2 and the Panny, arguably the best of each format. So these are my impressions.

Well, another HD DVD firmware update and a new problem with audio (lipsync with 1080P24)....

I don't know what to think is better..

1. Finish a spec (HD DVD) and, then, later fix the problems of rushing the final spec with multiple firmware updates over many months or years

or

2. Update the spec along (BD) the way and add things, along with a stable player as you go. Along theway, the player always performs reliably.

Blu Ray players in general are more stable and have far less disc playback issues....but an incomplete spec. HD DVD has a completed spec but 2 years worth of fixes....

You just can't win..... bottom line, the completed HD DVD completed spec isn't looking so great to me at this point... I'll take the slow steady approach with less hiccups along the way.

Anyone else??

thebland,
I don't think the top guy at Denon is happay about BD's unfinished specs..... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=906883
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post #10 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm sure he isn't.

I know they are dying to release a BD player.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #11 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 06:53 PM
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blu ray players always update and dont have problems? well when I updated mines to I think it was 1.4 my ps3 would skip like crazy, the 1.93 updated also made the ps3 now lock up out of nowhere while watching trailers or playing demos.
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post #12 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 07:17 PM
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BD's #1 player -- the PS3 -- has had more FW updates than any other piece of non-computer CE hardware in history. Often, the updates introduce new problems as well.

Don't dare think for a minute that it is just on the HD DVD side.

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post #13 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 07:22 PM
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The OP's point is based on the assumption that the problems in stabilty with HD DVD are directly related to the fact that they finished their spec before manufacturing machines. I don't buy that. I do buy almost everything else the OP says.

Like him, I have the Panasonic BD player and the XA2 (I also have an A1). And I've been saying for a long time that the most stable, reliable, quality player I have is the Panny. The other two give much pleasure ... but I know the Panny will perform without a flaw each time I put in a disc.

The biggest problem I have with the XA2 is lip sync. My Felston delay solves that on the digital audio outs. My biggest problem with the A1 is pauses and audio drop outs. Doesn't happen very much ... almost not at all ... but it does every now and then.

They could fix these things. And I'm wondering how loud the complaining is going to have to get before they finally do fix the lip sync problems with the XA2. It's not just this recent FW update. The lip sync problem with that model is an old, ongoing issue.

But this didn't happen because they rushed to finish the spec prior to manufacturing. They're just not doing it right yet.

I'll be they will soon.

All just my opinion.

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post #14 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 07:35 PM
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I have to agree with thebland, except I don't really blame "HD DVD." I blame Toshiba 100%. Their name is on the products and I have lost all respect for them with their total lack of quality control.

I currently have the HD-XA2 and the PS3. I also have owned the HD-A1, Panny BDP-10 and Sony 301. In my opinion, the HD-A1 was a total quality train wreck. I had to return it and swore I would never buy another Toshiba product. But then the HD-XA2 came out with the Reon and I couldn't resist it for DVD playback. It is fairly reliable now, but slow as heck and is by far the loudest component in my rack. Note that I do not even hear my recently Chinese manufactured 60 GB PS3. The HD-XA2 still has a big problem even after the 2.5 firmware update where component video is disabled when playing copy protected DVDs with HDMI audio and the "1080i maximum video resolution" setting. I never had any of these kinds of problems with the Panny or Sony 300 players -- well except that they were also slow.
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post #15 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 07:38 PM
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I also have the Panasonic BD player and the Toshiba XA2 and have yet to have a problem with either of these players.But I don't jump on the updates right away with either of the units
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post #16 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata View Post

I have to agree with thebland, except I don't really blame "HD DVD." I blame Toshiba 100%. Their name is on the products and I have lost all respect for them with their total lack of quality control.

I currently have the HD-XA2 and the PS3. I also have owned the HD-A1, Panny BDP-10 and Sony 301. In my opinion, the HD-A1 was a total quality train wreck. I had to return it and swore I would never buy another Toshiba product. But then the HD-XA2 came out with the Reon and I couldn't resist it for DVD playback. It is fairly reliable now, but slow as heck and is by far the loudest component in my rack. Note that I do not even hear my recently Chinese manufactured 60 GB PS3. The HD-XA2 still has a big problem even after the 2.5 firmware update where component video is disabled when playing copy protected DVDs with HDMI audio and the "1080i maximum video resolution" setting. I never had any of these kinds of problems with the Panny or Sony 300 players -- well except that they were also slow.

I thought you keep the Panny player I love my Panny player I have the XA2 only time I hear it is with no sound and about 2 feet away from it.I do agree the Panny is whisper quiet and they are both slow but no big deal.My neighbor has the PS3 and its the loudest thing I have heard in a long time no way would I have it setting in my living area.
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post #17 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 08:01 PM
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Yea, but HD-DVD does not output lossless PCM, and Blu ray does....

OH, and please understand; Dolby True HD does NOT sound as good as lossless PCM.

I own a A20 and PS3 and will take the lossless PCM track any day over Dolby True HD

I just wish Sony and Toshiba would stop making the consumer their test sites.
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post #18 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jbm007 View Post

Yea, but HD-DVD does not output lossless PCM, and Blu ray does....

OH, and please understand; Dolby True HD does NOT sound as good as lossless PCM.

I own a A20 and PS3 and will take the lossless PCM track any day over Dolby True HD

I just wish Sony and Toshiba would stop making the consumer their test sites.

hold on right there and don't post falsehoods. do your research.

HD-DVD supports lossless PCM; it is part of the mandatory specs. The fact that TrueHD decoding is mandatory means PCM has no reason to exist UNLIKE blu-ray. On the BD side TrueHD isn't supported on many models and that's why BDs even use PCM to begin with. PCM is going away on Blu-ray, though, according to paidgeek. Spiderman 1-2 ditched it.

BTW, A Mighty Heart on HD-DVD will be PCM. Frankly I have no idea why.

Also, TrueHD is lossless. Repeat...LOSSLESS. Audiophiles have been unable to prove that it is lossy, so you (who can't get facts straight) definitely can't. The reason PCM probably sounds better to you is the volume and dialog enhancement. From the same master THEY WILL BE IDENTICAL.
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post #19 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 08:23 PM
 
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How quickly we forget about the BD players that don't do 24p, TrueHD, BD-J problems (my 94HD seems to hate discs that use it), and other little silliness. I'd take a firmware upgrade a week until they can fix it. Unfortunately, firmware can't fix most of th problems that BD players have. It's just more hypocrisy. I bet you'll be praising the FW that helps 1.1 discs work on older players.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven975 View Post

hold on right there and don't post falsehoods. do your research.

HD-DVD supports lossless PCM; it is part of the mandatory specs. The fact that TrueHD decoding is mandatory means PCM has no reason to exist UNLIKE blu-ray. On the BD side TrueHD isn't supported on many models and that's why BDs even use PCM to begin with. PCM is going away on Blu-ray, though, according to paidgeek. Spiderman 1-2 ditched it.

BTW, A Mighty Heart on HD-DVD will be PCM. Frankly I have no idea why.

Also, TrueHD is lossless. Repeat...LOSSLESS. Audiophiles have been unable to prove that it is lossy, so you (who can't get facts straight) definitely can't. The reason PCM probably sounds better to you is the volume and dialog enhancement. From the same master THEY WILL BE IDENTICAL.

TrueHD is the Meridian MLP format. It has been widely praised for it's quality.
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post #21 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowcanary73 View Post

I thought you keep the Panny player...

I generally liked the Panny, but when I found that I could get an HDMI AVR on the cheap and the PS3 for $500 I went that route.
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post #22 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 10:42 PM
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Yea, its a great thing to have an unfinished spec and players on the market that will never be able to take advantage of the final spec because they don't have the right hardware requirements. I can definitely see how that is a good thing.

Hopefully the PS3 is the one player that will be able to be updated to 1.1 in the future (which is why I bought it).

I also think you have just gotten lucky with your players. My BD-P1000 has been sent to Samsung 3 times for repair and they are finally replacing it with a BD-P1200 which I'm going to sell as soon as I get it. The whole ordeal has been one major headache and I will never buy another Samsung BD player. To even things up a bit, I did have huge problems with skipping on my HD-A1 and used my Best Buy PSP to exchange it for an A2. My PS3 and A2 have both worked flawlessly so far and I'm quite happy with both players.

Problems and reliability issues aside, I don't think for one second that BD coming to market with an unfinished spec is a good thing. People keep trying to pass this off as a non issue but, I have no doubt that when disc start coming out with 1.1 features we will see many threads saying "why can't I access this or that feature." You think some people are upset about black bars, just wait tell they find out hey have to buy a brand new player only months after buying there current one to access some features.

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post #23 of 159 Old 09-13-2007, 11:03 PM
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I think that people watching BD movies at 1080p/24fs with uncompressed audio sleep very well when they finally hit the sack. If you want to read about people who are losing sleep check out this thread: HD DVD gets 1080p 24fps output
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post #24 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 07:54 AM
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Slim,

Exactly which problems can't be fixed by firmware? 1.0 players are not supposed to play advanced content(PiP and internet access), but they should play the disc, the main feature and most extras(including ALL java applications). If it is not capable of doing it, it is a problem for the CE manufacturer and for a specific model. It is NOT a format problem, no matter how much you spin it. There is a known problem with java performance on earlied models(using only a SoC), but that was a manufacturers design mistake(my personal opinion, not a matter of fact), not a format limitation. Unless you guys can separate what is a format problem and what is a manufacturer problem, this argument can't reach any resolution.

The BD format specifies the APIs that should be available, the ones that are optional, and how to build java applets that test stuff availability before trying to use it. Backward compatibility of all 1.1 and 2.0 feature enabled discs is a requirement, and despite changes to the profiles, it should not be affected as long as people implement it as they should. Toshiba has been fixing issues with their firmware too, but I do not say it is because their format sucks...

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post #25 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 08:01 AM
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I have both the Panasonic BR and the Toshiba XA2 and what really bothers me about the Panasonic is the possibility of not being able to play 1.1 or higher movies. I bought the Panasonic knowing that I wouldn't get the pip and extras for the 1.1 and higher formats but really didn't care is long as I can still watch the movie in HD.

On the other side, I bought the XA2 knowing that even if HD-DVD would one day fail, I still have a player that is top notch with the Reon chipset for my standard DVD collection.

Because of the possibility of the Panasonic not being capable of playing the new format BD, I find myself buying the HD-DVD version of a movie when its available in both formats.

Although I upgraded both with the latest firmware with no problems, I must agree with some previous posts that the Panasonic has been a little more stable and glitch free, except for the failure to play the LOTR movies. The XA2 has frozen up on a couple of movies and the ever so slight lip synch it has shown is a little annoying yet I know with Toshiba's continuing firmware releases that they will correct it.

I'm not bashing BR yet and I'm letting it play out, but if the the current batch of BR player do become obsolete in the sense that it will not even play the HD feature, I will be one of many that will be, to say the least, upset.

If BR lets this happen, can you imagine how many people they would alienate. Can't help but think that this would do way too much damage for them to overcome. I tend to believe they will not allow this to happen.
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post #26 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 08:11 AM
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Quote:


With BD, you're sh!t out of luck if you have a current player and want the 1.1 or 2.0 spec. With HD-DVD, Toshiba can always issue a firmware upgrade.

Agreed! With the exception of the PS3 of course, which I'm assuming can get 2.0 via a firmware update vs. all the current standalone BD players.

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post #27 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 08:35 AM
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Agreed! With the exception of the PS3 of course, which I'm assuming can get 2.0 via a firmware update vs. all the current standalone BD players.

We still don't know if this is possible. For the sake of everyone with a PS3, I hope it is.

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post #28 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 08:37 AM
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TheBland must be insanely naive to think that BD 1.1 will come without problems much more serious than all HD DVD problems - or he must be a very well paid blu-robot.

I seriously hope it is the latter.

Format neutral! (prefering HD DVD which is build on quality while blu-ray is build on marketing)
CETERUM CENSEO BLU-RAYEM ESSE DELENDAM!
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post #29 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Personally, I could careless about PIP and the like.

I like my Panny very much. It is quick responsive and plays great.

My XA2 has been great as well...though twice as slow to boot.

Since I am doing a CIH set up, my next Blu Ray player will be the one that can move subtitles to the viewing area (image). OR the add the feature to discs. PIP isn't anytrhing I am interested in (and most others as well I'd bet). Just the movie, please.

Yes, the BD players may not be upgradeable to 1.1 but if it keeps doing the playback job it has been doing all along, I'll be very pleased. It plays movie and does so without issue. I have had it over a year now and I feel I have gotten my money's worth.

1.1 may roll out flawlessly as Sony seems to be in no hurry to release it. When they do, it'll likely be fine. I am sure they have watched that original HD DVD owners are on their 8th firmware update.....and all issues are still not resolved.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #30 of 159 Old 09-14-2007, 08:50 AM
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FWIW, I have the Samsung 1200, and it is far less reliable than my A1. I'm dreading the arrival of 1.1 discs, because I expect to have alot of problems with them. Its going to be interesting when these discs come out.
J
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