Official PS3 FAQ Master Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bloomcounty View Post

Hmmm... I haven't noticed any "hitching motion" watching dvds on my regular tv... But I'm wondering if that sort of thing is way more noticeable on a hidef display with a larger screen? What do you think?

Generally, the only time you notice it is during slower panning scenes. It's always bugged me a little bit, but it doesn't seem to get any worse (to me at least) as the screen size gets bigger. If you haven't really noticed it so far, then it shouldn't be an issue. Of course, now that you're aware of it, you'll probably begin noticing it.
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post #722 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 10:48 AM
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Has the whole 'Can the PS3 really output 0-255 over RGB' argument ever been settled? Many people still seem to be convinced that the PS3 outputs 0-255, but I'm not so sure. Using the THX optimizer in the Pirates of the Caribbean DVD, I cannot pass BTB with both my Samsung LCD and PS3 set to Full (Normal on the Samsung, Full on the PS3) however I can pass BTB if I set the output to YCbCr and enable super-white (x.v.Color which DOES expand the color space to 0-255). But can DVD's really output 0-255? Or is the THX optimizer not a true test for BTB?

And if this proves the PS3 cannot pass BTB with BR/DVD's, essentially meaning the PS3 is not outputting the full range but mapping 16-235 -> 0-255, this doesn't necessarily prove that the XMB/games are simply mapping 16-235->0-255 as well, but it could actually be outputting 0-255. Or does it depend on the developer whether they output the full range or limited range?

I know for BR/DVD it's recommended to set output to YCbCr and enable super-white (I've always had it this way) but for games/XMB, if your TV supports the full range (like my Samsung) should I set it to Full or Limited?
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post #723 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 11:23 AM
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When using RGB Full there can be no Blacker than Black or Peak White data. RGB Full means Black is sent as 0 and Reference White is sent as 255. Since there are no values below 0 or above 255 there's no place to put Blacker than Black or Peak White data.

RGB Limited sends Black as 16 and Reference White as 235. Blacker than Black data is supposed to go in the range from 1-15, and Peak White data is supposed to go in the range from 236-254 (the values 0 and 255 are reserved). However there is a long-standing bug in the PS3 which causes it to clip the Blacker than Black and Peak White data even when using RGB Limited.

YCbCr with SuperWhite ON correctly sends Black as 16, Reference White as 235, Blacker than Black as 1-15, and Peak White as 236-254 (luminance component values). That's what you should be using for Blu-Ray playback.

For games that insist on RGB output, the recommended setting here in this FAQ is RGB Limited so that you don't have to alter the Brightness (i.e., black levels) setting in your display from what would be correct when YCbCr is being used for Blu-Ray.

If you don't mind changing Brightness in your display each time you switch to RGB output from the PS3, then you can use RGB Full. But you WILL have to change Brightness to reflect the fact that Black is now coming across the cable as 0 instead of 16, otherwise your games will look too dark.

------------------------------------------------------

ETA: Blacker than Black and Peak White data is there to make it easier for video processing algorithms to produce results without artifacts. Results can float a bit either side of Black or Reference White without being clipped. There isn't a sharp cutoff of the data at Black and at Reference White.

Computers assume that no significant amount of video processing will happen between the output from the graphics card and the pixels lighting up on screen. In addition, their content is created on the fly rather than being the end result of a video processing chain that starts in some studio and eventually ends up in the computer. So they can forego Blacker than Black and Peak White data in their output and use the "extended" range to hold more steps in the images they are producing. And that's why computer graphics cards tend to put out "Extended RGB" -- what Sony is calling RGB Full.

Home theater content on the other hand, expects many video processing stages between studio and screen, and thus Blacker than Black and Peak White data is important. The RGB version of this is called "Studio RGB" -- what Sony is calling RGB Limited, except that the PS3 has the clipping bug described above.

Games machines are more like computers than home theater equipment -- content created algorithmically on the fly. So it makes sense that they would use Extended RGB (Sony's RGB Full). Nevertheless, it is still probably best to use the combo of YCbCr with SuperWhite ON and RGB Limited -- with the output format set to either Automatic or YCbCr -- so that you get best quality from Blu-Ray movies and the convenience of not having to change the Brightness setting in your TV when you play a game.
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post #724 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

When using RGB Full there can be no Blacker than Black or Peak White data. RGB Full means Black is sent as 0 and Reference White is sent as 255. Since there are no values below 0 or above 255 there's no place to put Blacker than Black or Peak White data.

So you're saying RGB Full is simply expanding the available colors (16-235) to a larger color space (0-255)? This is what I thought.
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RGB Limited sends Black as 16 and Reference White as 235. Blacker than Black data is supposed to go in the range from 1-15, and Peak White data is supposed to go in the range from 236-254 (the values 0 and 255 are reserved). However there is a long-standing bug in the PS3 which causes it to clip the Blacker than Black and Peak White data even when using RGB Limited.

But you're supposed to see BTB/WTW if you're using Full, not Limited. RGB Full is essentially the same thing as x.v.Color, is it not? It's supposed to just expand the limitation of colors from 16-235 to 0-255. When you enable super-white (x.v.Color) it expands the color space to 0-255, which is why you can see levels blacker than black (0-15) and levels whiter than white (236-255). So RGB should do the same thing.
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YCbCr with SuperWhite ON correctly sends Black as 16, Reference White as 235, Blacker than Black as 1-15, and Peak White as 236-254 (luminance component values). That's what you should be using for Blu-Ray playback.

I'm aware of that, but shouldn't RGB Full (if it is indeed expanding the color space rather than mapping 16-235->0-255) do the same thing?

Quote:


For games that insist on RGB output, the recommended setting here in this FAQ is RGB Limited so that you don't have to alter the Brightness (i.e., black levels) setting in your display from what would be correct when YCbCr is being used for Blu-Ray.

The FAQ assumes you have a TV that doesn't have the option to switch between Full and Limited. Samsung and Sony TV's have the option to switch color spaces, so as long as you match your color space, brightness levels are the same. For example, Samsung's HDMI Black Level set to Low is Limited range (or Video level) and Normal is Full range (or PC level) - so if you set your PS3/TV to Limited/Low, brightness setting should not have to be changed if you have your PS3/TV set to Full/Normal.
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post #725 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 11:45 AM
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You are mistaken.

RGB Full *IS* remapping Black from 16 to 0 and Reference White from 235 to 255. It is what everyone else calls "Extended RGB".

RGB Full provides more steps between Black and Reference White at the expense of eliminating any place to put the Blacker than Black or Peak White data.

x.vYCC is very different. It uses the values that would be used in YCBCr to hold Blacker than Black and Peak White data to encode NEGATIVE R,G,B values. This extends the color gamut outside of the R,G,B primary triangle you would otherwise get. x.v.YCC allows encoding of colors that can not be reached in YCbCr -- more closely approaching the limits of what the human eye can actually see.

---------------------------------------

As long as the black levels are matched at either end of the cable you can use either RGB flavor with your TV.

However, Blu-Ray discs are encoded in YCbCr, and if you convert them to RGB for output the flavor you want to use is Studio RGB (what Sony calls RGB Limited) to avoid altering the step sizes, which can introduce banding.

If your display allows separate settings for RGB input vs. YCbCr input you can use RGB Full for games from the PS3 without problem. Just be sure the PS3 is sending YCbCr when playing Blu-Ray content.

------------------------------------------------

ETA: The recommendation for use of RGB Limited is for folks who are using RGB for Blu-Ray playback and also for folks whose displays don't provide the type of flexibility we just discussed -- i.e., automatic switching of black levels setup depending upon whether the input video is RGB or YCbCr.
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post #726 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

You are mistaken.

RGB Full *IS* remapping Black from 16 to 0 and Reference White from 235 to 255. It is what everyone else calls "Extended RGB".

RGB Full provides more steps between Black and Reference White at the expense of eliminating any place to put the Blacker than Black or Peak White data.

Oh I see. So if your TV/display supports the full range, it is recommended?

Quote:


As long as the black levels are matched at either end of the cable you can use either RGB flavor with your TV.

However, Blu-Ray discs are encoded in YCbCr, and if you convert them to RGB for output the flavor you want to use is Studio RGB (what Sony calls RGB Limited) to avoid altering the step sizes, which can introduce banding.

If your display allows separate settings for RGB input vs. YCbCr input you can use RGB Full for games from the PS3 without problem. Just be sure the PS3 is sending YCbCr when playing Blu-Ray content.

------------------------------------------------

ETA: The recommendation for use of RGB Limited is for folks who are using RGB for Blu-Ray playback and also for folks whose displays don't provide the type of flexibility we just discussed -- i.e., automatic switching of black levels setup depending upon whether the input video is RGB or YCbCr.
--Bob

If your display supports both Limited and Full, there should be no need to have separate settings for both RGB and YCbCr as the Limited and Full only affects RGB signals. So, in my case, I can have it like this and use the same TV settings for both RGB and YCbCr:
PS3:
BR/DVD Output YCbCr
YCbCr super-white enabled
RGB Full

TV:
HDMI Black Level - Normal (0-255)

So if I play BluRay/DVD movies, it will use YCbCr with black being 16 on the PS3 and 16 being black on my TV. When viewing an RGB source, the TV and PS3 will both have black at 0 instead of 16 but its simply mapping 16 -> 0 and 235 -> 255, so there should be no need to have separate settings. The only time you would be required to use separate settings, is if you're using different color spaces on each end of the cable. Is this right?

Everything else I was aware of already.
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post #727 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 12:11 PM
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There's nothing wrong with that setup if the controls on your TV work as you describe. But there are quite a few displays (and receivers!) out there which mistakenly apply such Black Levels settings to YCbCr inputs as well.

In any event, it looks like this is going to work fine for you with your display -- so cool! You will not be getting Blacker than Black or Peak White when the PS3 is sending out RGB, but the games content doesn't produce that anyway so no problem.

The key thing is that you are still using YCbCr (with SuperWhite ON) for Blu-Ray and standard DVD playback.
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post #728 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 12:16 PM
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I'm pretty sure thats how all Samsung and Sony LCD's work. I believe the HDMI Black Level setting is grayed out on YCbCr sources. Here's hoping my Pioneer AVR isn't altering the picture as I have my PS3 going through it. But from what I've heard, my AVR does a straight pass-through. I will check later on when I have time.

Thanks for the help.
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post #729 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

I'm pretty sure thats how all Samsung and Sony LCD's work. I believe the HDMI Black Level setting is grayed out on YCbCr sources. Here's hoping my Pioneer AVR isn't altering the picture as I have my PS3 going through it. But from what I've heard, my AVR does a straight pass-through. I will check later on when I have time.

I wouldn't assume that about your display without testing. You can easily force the PS3 to use RGB instead of YCbCr for BD/DVD, then check if the black levels you're seeing on movies with RGB Full are the same as you see when the PS3 is outputting YCbCr. I've always assumed most displays would not compensate automatically, and hence RGB Limited is the better choice.

As for AVRs, you should be OK with a Pioneer. A bunch of Yamaha models will not pass full range HDMI signals and hence you need to use RGB Limited. The Harman Kardon 254 and 354 also did not originally pass full range but a recent firmware update was supposed to fix this.
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post #730 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I wouldn't assume that about your display without testing. You can easily force the PS3 to use RGB instead of YCbCr for BD/DVD, then check if the black levels you're seeing on movies with RGB Full are the same as you see when the PS3 is outputting YCbCr. I've always assumed most displays would not compensate automatically, and hence RGB Limited is the better choice.

I have tested before and my brightness setting on my TV applies to both, as long as I match my output levels of my TV and PS3. I just have to see if my AVR has any affect on this, which I don't think it will.

Quote:


As for AVRs, you should be OK with a Pioneer. A bunch of Yamaha models will not pass full range HDMI signals and hence you need to use RGB Limited. The Harman Kardon 254 and 354 also did not originally pass full range but a recent firmware update was supposed to fix this.

I heard the same things.
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post #731 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 02:01 PM
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With my Anthem Statement D2 preamp-processor as well, I can set its PS3 HDMI input to expect Extended RGB when the incoming signal is formatted as RGB without altering what it does when the incoming signal is YCbCr, and without altering what it does for any other input.

And then with the PS3 output format set to Automatic, along with both YCbCr SuperWhite ON and RGB Full, I do indeed get proper YCbCr (including Blacker than Black and Peak White data) for Blu-Ray and SD-DVD playback and I also get "Extended" RGB for games playback, for the XMB, and for the music playback Visualizer. And all of that works correctly.

I haven't tried streamed or imported still image or video content, so there may still be an issue there if the content was recorded expecting the 16-235 range and is now being output as RGB Full (the symptom would be additional "banding" due to the change that happens in the step sizes when the data range gets re-mapped). And I haven't tried any x.vYCC imported content.

----------------------------------------------------------

For newbies, I would recommend you START with the settings found in the first post of the FAQ: Automatic output format (as opposed to explicitly selecting either YCbCr or RGB), YCbCr SuperWhite ON, and RGB Limited.

When you are comfortable that this is working correctly for you, and you know how things are supposed to look, then see if you can switch to RGB Full along with the matching change for RGB format input in your Receiver (or TV if directly connected to the TV). Once RGB looks correct again, check to make sure this is not screwing up the YCbCr when doing Blu-Ray playback and also that it isn't screwing up playback from any other input source devices you have.

If so, then you can use RGB Full and get a better match for the ramp step sizes that PS3 game content is expecting. If you run into a problem, I would recommend you just stick with RGB Limited for games and such to better match with the YCbCr + SuperWhite On being used for Blu-Ray playback.

-----------------------------------------------------------

If your setup requires you to use RGB for Blu-Ray playback (most commonly due to a direct connection to a DVI display instead of an HDMI display), then you should use RGB Limited for best Blu-Ray playback. EXCEPTION: Some projectors intended primarily for use with computers won't have enough adjustment range to get proper black levels when using RGB Limited input, and thus you will need to use RGB Full.

Some folks may also discover that their receiver or display offers differing image control options for RGB input as opposed to YCbCr input. For example, Color and Tint control may not actually function for RGB input.
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post #732 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 05:22 PM
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Bob, why don't you just force YCbCr output just in case? That way, BR/DVD will definitely output YCbCr and games/XMB will be RGB regardless.
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post #733 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 06:35 PM
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No particular reason. I just prefer to keep factory default settings unless I have good reason to change them, and Auto does the right thing in my setup so I can just leave it that way.
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post #734 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 06:55 PM
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Great discussion between you 2.

I'm a noob looking for some advise based on your discussions.

I have a Sony XBR 4 and a PS3 as my Bluray player going thru an Onkyo receiver via HDMI.

Here are my settings:

PS3: I have YCbCr / RGB Full / Super White On

TV: I have it as RGB Full (other option was Limited)

Color Space: Do I choose Standard or Wide?

Video Color Space: Which do I choose, X.V. Color, Normal or Auto (I think i found my answer from that article I posted below, XV Color is not used).

Color Space: Should I choose Standard or Wide?

FYI, I don't play games on the PS3, I want what's best for Bluray playback.

Thank you
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post #735 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 07:17 PM
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From an article I just read:

Black and white levels for video components shall be either “Full Range” or “Limited Range.” YCbCr components shall always be Limited Range while RGB components may be either Full Range or Limited Range. While using RGB, Limited Range shall be used for all video formats defined in CEA-861-D, with the exception of VGA (640x480) format, which requires Full Range.

Basically, in YCbCr mode, full range signal (0-255, which it can do) is not allowed and limited range values are specified (16-235 for 8-bit color sources). Initially, analogue sources & displays had something called under- or overshoot which in essence took into account the 1-15 and 236 to 255 values so YCbCr was limited to 16-235.

Closing the Circle
Now that I have you thoroughly confused, let's get back to the issue at hand. ALL video stored on modern discs, be it DVD or Blu-ray, are stored as YCbCr with a range of 16-235. But, the content is mastered such that 0-255 is present in the tape domain (the SDI stream - D5 archive tape, etc.) It is then captured into a computer and then the computer will decide what to do with it - preferably retaining the extended info (all data from 0-255). This entire range is then compressed into the 16-235 range accepted by DVDs, Blu-ray Discs, etc. When you play that back on a system set to 16-235, you get all the information as it was intended with no gaps. If you mismatch and play back with RGB (0-255) settings, you'll clip off the black and white levels and black will look "dark gray". Additionally, you won't be able to view the Blacker-than-Black images found on most video test discs. Let's look at this pictorially to get a better understanding of how this works:

Many of your displays can accept a RGB 0-255 signal. However, if you are using your receiver as an HDMI switcher, there may be a bottleneck. For some reason, many receiver manufacturers have strictly limited their receiver HDMI inputs to a 16-235 range for RGB. This means that if you set your source to output RGB, it will be sending a signal to your receiver that will be truncated before it is sent to the display. If you use this signal to calibrate your black levels, your black levels will be off and it's likely you won't see the Blacker-than-Black pattern from test discs.

xvYCC - a Marketing Gimmick? Mostly.

With xvYCC, the range is again extended to 0-255 as is expected, since digital TVs have no under- or over-shoot as did analogue television signals. This will effectively override (in theory) any RGB or YCbCr settings on your source, AV receiver, or display. The idea is that the xvYCC color gamut is only effective when all components in a chain support it. While several AV receivers and displays support xvYCC color space, currently only the PlayStation3 provides xvYCC as a source. Here's where it gets dicey: The Blu-ray specification for movies (BD-ROM) does not support Deep Color or the new xvYCC color space. Oops.


I'll say it again: Blu-ray and HD DVD movie formats are limited to 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr. To our knowledge, there is no move to add xvYCC expanded color capability to the BD-ROM specification. In addition, issues of backwards compatibility would be extremely difficult to overcome, rendering any new 10-bit or higher formats unplayable on legacy BD players. The only solution would be to take advantage of larger BD storage media and issue discs with dual data streams for video (double sided or dual layer if you will).


Without mastering and the ability to store xvYCC on source material (other than games which are generated via PC video cards) it seems that xvYCC is largely a marketing gimmick.

Currently, Hollywood films are telecined directly to digital, with masters stored on D5 tape in 10-bit 4:2:2 format. While this is better than the 8-bit 4:2:0 present on current media, it's still not 12- or 16-bit Deep Color or even utilizing the xvYCC color space. Without mastering and the ability to store xvYCC on source material (other than games which are generated via PC video cards) it seems that xvYCC is largely a marketing gimmick, save the new lines of camcorders, etc which boast 10-bit recording and xvYCC support. Somehow, eliminating the occasional color banding in home movies isn't exactly the incredible leap in technology for which most of us were hoping.

Simplifying the Process - What to Do
Luckily for us - the net result is that these settings aren't all that hard to get right after all. Here are a few things to keep in mind, however:


Standard definition DVDs, Blu-ray discs and HD signals are all YCbCr 16-235 range native. Always set your source to YCbCr mode (not RGB) when calibrating your black and white levels on your display.
Some AV receivers may not pass anything except 16-235 via HDMI. This means that if you are setting your source to RGB (0-255) you may get your black and white levels truncated.
xvYCC is significant ONLY if all components in the chain support xvYCC. Do not utilize this setting on any component unless everything else can fall into place. Once set, xvYCC should override and RGB or YCbCr settings.


The general rule - the takeaway for this entire article is this:

First, set your source components to output YCbCr if there is an option. Second, get a test disc that has a Blacker-than-Black pattern (AVIA Pro, Digital Video Essentials, any THX DVD with THX Optimizer, etc) and ensure that you can see blacker-than-black on your display. Third, switch your display's HDMI setting from 'Normal' to 'Enhanced' if you do not see the Blacker-than-Black pattern. As long as you can see a below black signal, you are more than likely set up to get the best possible dynamic range from your display. Your final step in resolving this issue should be to set the correct black and white levels.
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post #736 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J y E 4Ever View Post

From an article I just read:

This article, since you seemed to have inadvertantly neglegted to include the attribution:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ca...vels-xvycc-rgb

Wide Awake

on the Edge

of the World

 

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post #737 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

This article, since you seemed to have inadvertantly neglegted to include the attribution:

http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ca...vels-xvycc-rgb

Correct, sorry about that.....

Thank you for adding that....my bad.

I had no ill intentions.
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post #738 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 08:31 PM
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This is my understanding of x.v.Color/xvYCC. The PS3's 'super-white' option enables x.v.Color (0-255) - it expands the limitation of possible colors. This is why you can pass BTB (0-15) and WTW (236-255) with super-white enabled. This setting is safe to enable, because all it does is widens the limitation of available colors.

Now for TV's that support x.v.Color and have an x.v.Color/xvYCC setting, if enabled, your TV is assuming it's accepting a 0-255 (x.v.Color) source, so it takes it and displays it at 0-255. However, if your source does NOT support x.v.Color (ie 16-235) it will take the available colors (again, 16-235), and expand it to the full 0-255 making colors look a little less saturation in comparison. IMO, unless your source supports Deep Color, you're better off keeping xvYCC/x.v.Color disabled on your display. As of now, there is next to no content that supports deep color and it probably won't become commonly used for quite a while.

So Deep color allows for more available colors, while x.v.Color/xvYCC expands the limitation of possible colors. Unless all your equipment and the source material support x.v.Color, you're better off leaving it disabled on your display. It's also not essential to have super-white enabled, as all BTB/WTW is useful for, is to help with calibrating your display.

I could be wrong about x.v.Color/xvYCC, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

edit: note, this is based on what i've noticed when enabling xvYCC on my Samsung LN46A650. I can enable/disable xvYCC with any HDMI source it seems, and if I enable it on sources that don't support x.v.Color, it makes colors less saturated... I'm assuming this is because it's taking 16-235 and expanding it to 0-255. I don't know if this is recommended or not.
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post #739 of 4488 Old 11-09-2008, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

This is my understanding of x.v.Color/xvYCC. The PS3's 'super-white' option enables x.v.Color (0-255) - it expands the limitation of possible colors. This is why you can pass BTB (0-15) and WTW (236-255) with super-white enabled. This setting is safe to enable, because all it does is widens the limitation of available colors.

Super White does not enable x.v.Color, it just allows BTB/WTW values to be output. Normal colours are not remapped in any way so you don't get any additional colour range.
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post #740 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 12:11 AM
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Actually, as a side effect of turning off the clipping of YCbCr Blacker than Black and Peak White data, SuperWhite ON *DOES* enable x.vYCC output in the PS3 -- but only when playing imported AVCHD content that happens to be encoded in x.vYCC.

This is because (when not using Deep Color) you need the data range that is enabled by SuperWhite On to encode the extra color range defined by x.vYCC. See the Sony on-line manual for the PS3:

http://manuals.playstation.net/docum...uperwhite.html

However, for Blu-Ray, standard DVD and normal imported content, you aren't going to get x.vYCC output whether or not you turn SuperWhite ON.
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post #741 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rahzel View Post

This is my understanding of x.v.Color/xvYCC. The PS3's 'super-white' option enables x.v.Color (0-255) - it expands the limitation of possible colors. This is why you can pass BTB (0-15) and WTW (236-255) with super-white enabled. This setting is safe to enable, because all it does is widens the limitation of available colors.

x.vYCC support and support for allowing the passing of both Blacker than Black and Peak White data in YCbCr are two entirely different concepts.

The SuperWhite setting is tangled up in this because the data range it enables for YCbCr output format in the PS3 is ALSO used by x.vYCC output format to represent colors that can't be reached in the YCbCr color gamut. You get one or the other -- not both.

--------------------------------------

Deep Color and x.vYCC are also separate concepts.

Deep Color allows for a finer step size within a given color gamut. Think smoother ramps between the same end points. Differences between adjacent colors are finer, but no new color range is accessible.

x.vYCC allows for a wider color gamut. Think color vs. black and white. More saturated colors are available than can be represented in either the SDTV or HDTV YCbCr color spaces. The color gamut defined by x.vYCC more closely matches what the human eye can actually see than either the SDTV or HDTV display color gamuts. In terms of physical media, the x.vYCC color gamut most closely matches what can be captured by color film stock -- which is a larger color gamut than any home theater display device can produce at the moment.

Deep Color and x.vYCC are complementary in the sense that spanning a larger color gamut with equal fineness of step size requires more steps. But they can also be applied independently.

Converting YCbCr data (as from a Blu-Ray disc) to x.vYCC is akin to converting a black and white movie to color. It can be done, but not in real time by the sort of electronics people will be willing to pay for in home theater equipment. So typically what you will get is that the movie is encoded in only a subset of what x.vYCC can actually reach -- much like putting a black and white movie into a color TV but leaving it as black and white.

Converting "normal" color data to Deep Color is a process of interpolation. The finer step sizes can result from intermediate values produced by various video processing algorithms. But of course the "rounding errors" in the color step size of the original content must still be represented somehow in the final result (i.e., garbage in -- garbage out).
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post #742 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 02:48 AM
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So do you recommend you enable xvYCC on Samsung LCD's? Or only if the source supports Deep Color? If I enable xvYCC I see a difference in PQ, even if the source does not support deep color. Again, colors look washed out in comparison.
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post #743 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 03:51 AM
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No. I don't think you should turn on xvYCC in the display unless that's what you are sending it. But it depends on how they have implemented that setting.
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post #744 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 02:51 PM
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I tried to locate this via search, but had no luck. Maybe that DTS is too general of a term to find the relevant info, I don't know.

I just got the PS3 this weekend. I have it hooked up to my TV via HDMI, but my reciever does not have HDMI, so it's on an optical cable to the reciever.

I stuck in a DVD that had a DTS soundtrack and (yes I selected the DTS track) on playback, the reciever didn't light the DTS signal, just DD. I'm thinking if it got DTS signal, it should have registered it. I recall reading before that while the PS3 will do the decoding of HD style DTS and MA and pass that on to the reciever in LCPM format (or whatever) that in those cases, the reciever would not light the True Audio/MA logos, etc, but you were still getting that HD audio.

This is not the case for standard DD and DTS is it? I should get the logo?

If so, that means, i'm guessing, my audio output options aren't set correctly. By default, two LCPM's were selected and I added DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1. Does/Did it just take the DD by default? Is there a proper way to set this if I only have a DTS capable reciever? (still saving for the HD reciever) - Or will this be a matter of fine tuning the audio settings on a per disk basis to only output either DD or DTS depending on tracks the disk holds?

Again, sorry if it's already been addressed - i've looked a few times over the last couple days and haven't been able to find it.

Thanks
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post #745 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 03:03 PM
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What is the Color Space option on my Sony XBR4 do? Should I choose Standard or Wide?

Thank You
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post #746 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 04:08 PM
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Below is my 2 cents worth for the questions you raise:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bloomcounty View Post

Hmmm... I haven't noticed any "hitching motion" watching dvds on my regular tv... But I'm wondering if that sort of thing is way more noticeable on a hidef display with a larger screen? What do you think?



Thanks for all those replies! I'm going to provide some more info for you and see if I can get a more specific opinion on a few points, if that's okay?

In no particular order, here's what is important to me (as far as my limited knowledge can determine)...

1. Bluray picture quality (and bluray compatibility -- i.e. no issues with movie discs) Sony issues frequent updates to the PS3 firmware (best obtained if you have the PS3 connected to high speed internet, either WiFi or by CAT 5) and it is generally considered the reference for BD disc compatibility.
2. SD dvd picture quality The PS3 does a very good job at de-interlacing and upscaling DVDs for output at 1080p. The only BD players that are better tend to be those using the Reon or Realta video processors (such as the Denon 3800). DVD played on the PS3 and displayed on a 1080p HDTV certainly look better than when using a SD DVD player and a std. def. dislplay.
3. De-interlacing See response to #2 above.
4. Upscaling See response to #2 above. Note that early firmware releases for the PS3 did not support DVD upscaling, so don't be mislead by older reviews of the PS3.
5. XviD/DivX .avi playback (and the PQ of it). See Post #1 for more info. PS3 supports DivX but with some limitations as to which version of DivX. I'm not into using DivX so I'll leave it to others to comment on the quality.
6. No burn-in worries (mainly because of watching a lot of 4:3 content). While this is a potential issue with Plasma displays in general, manufacturers have taken steps over the past few of years to significantly reduce the potential for burn-in. Some people use the stretch mode to fill the screen when feeding a std. def. signal to eliminate the issue, but unless a very high percent of the material you watch is 3 x 4 this shouldn't be necessary. I suggest you check out the AVS Forum for Plasma Displays for more information on the topic of burn-in (HERE).
7. Good for watching regular SD 4:3 sized stuff in center of screen (with bars on the side) -- i.e. *not* stretched to fill the screen. See response for #6 above. Most plasma HDTVs, and some upsclaing sources, let you select gray bars instead of black to reduce the potential for burn-in when watching 3 x 4 material. Also many plasma HDTVs include an orbit function of help reduce the potential for burn-in.7a. Accurate display of 4:3 material center screen.

(I realize some of this would be display things, not player things, like #6.)

I won't be playing video games.

I won't be watching regular broadcast tv (for the most part) and no cable at all.

I own a lot of SD dvds that I won't be replacing with bluray versions (and I want these to look at least as good to my eye as they do now on my regular old 4:3 Toshiba 27" flatscreen tube tv). Should look significantly better than with your old setup. Also those DVD that are in widescreen format can be displayed in full widescreen mode with your new HDTV.

I also watch .avi files of tv shows (many of which are not in a HD format, so those would be letterboxed but the whole image with bars as 4:3 in center of screen).

I won't be hooking up my computer to the display.

I do like the idea of the PS3's hard drive to put the .avi files on (and I'm guessing they probably play better from the hard drive than a dvd?).

I sit about 8.5 feet from the tv, so I figure a 50" 1080p would be worth it (as I'm told that even though I plan to play a lot of SD dvds, a 720p display won't give me a better SD dvd PQ than a 1080p, even though 720p is closer to the native resolution of the SD dvds -- assuming this is correct?)

So considering all those factors above, would you say the PS3 be the top choice as a bluray and SD dvd player for this display for me? If not *the* top, but one of the top, can you suggest ones that might be more fitting?

Or is it really worth to spend the extra $ for the Pioneer (which right now is on-sale at B&M stores for $3K and the Panasonic is $2.5K at full MSRP -- though I'm waiting for that to come down well below $2K hopefully in the coming weeks). While the Pioneer Elite Kuro plasmas are somewhat better than the Panasonic plasmas, there appears to have been a recent wholesale price drop in the Panasonic plasmas with 50 inch PZ80 entry level model under $1500 at and the step up PZ85 for around $1800 at some of the big box dealers and warehouse clubs. The PZ800 and PZ850 are over $2K. The PZ85 is probably the "most bang for the buck" in the Panasonic lineup unless you can find a good deal on a PZ800. As with Panasonic, the Pioneer entry-level models do give up performance as compared to their more expenive models. Again check out user reviews in the AVS Forum area for plasma displays (HERE).

Would you get more out of the PS3 with the Pioneer because of the whole 1080p/24 thing? Or is the 1080p/24 thing not *that* much better than using 2:3 pulldown? How much difference would you say there was in regards to that in PQ in your opinion?

In relation to that, would SD dvds look better played on the PS3 on the Panasonic in question or the Kuro? (And how much better?)

Out of curiosity, what is the advantage of 480i output from your player for SD dvd? That would just mean than you'd be letting your display de-interlace and then do all the upscaling, right? If so, then that doesn't even matter because the PS3 probably does all that better than the Panasonic display, right? (And this seems to be only done better by the Kuro, right?) So unless you had the Kuro and were letting it do all the work (and had a player that did output in 480i), it doesn't really matter -- is that right?

And thanks again to you both for the replies! And thanks again for fielding my newbie questions (and helping me make a sound decision when it comes to spending so much $).


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post #747 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboath View Post

I tried to locate this via search, but had no luck. Maybe that DTS is too general of a term to find the relevant info, I don't know.

I just got the PS3 this weekend. I have it hooked up to my TV via HDMI, but my reciever does not have HDMI, so it's on an optical cable to the reciever.

I stuck in a DVD that had a DTS soundtrack and (yes I selected the DTS track) on playback, the reciever didn't light the DTS signal, just DD. I'm thinking if it got DTS signal, it should have registered it. I recall reading before that while the PS3 will do the decoding of HD style DTS and MA and pass that on to the reciever in LCPM format (or whatever) that in those cases, the reciever would not light the True Audio/MA logos, etc, but you were still getting that HD audio.

This is not the case for standard DD and DTS is it? I should get the logo?

If so, that means, i'm guessing, my audio output options aren't set correctly. By default, two LCPM's were selected and I added DD 5.1 and DTS 5.1. Does/Did it just take the DD by default? Is there a proper way to set this if I only have a DTS capable reciever? (still saving for the HD reciever) - Or will this be a matter of fine tuning the audio settings on a per disk basis to only output either DD or DTS depending on tracks the disk holds?

Again, sorry if it's already been addressed - i've looked a few times over the last couple days and haven't been able to find it.

Thanks

For legacy digital audio connections (non-hdmi) from the PS3 you should select bitstream from the PS3 audio options. Did you do that?
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post #748 of 4488 Old 11-10-2008, 04:22 PM
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Just to add on to Bob's comments above...

Regarding the Pioneer Kuro's vs. Panasonic's (or anything else)... It's widely regarded that the new Kuro's are at the top of the list for PQ. Yes, they cost more, sometimes significantly more, than other displays. The question is: Is it worth it to you? IMHO and the opinion of many others - yes!

I'm of the opinion that you should try to get the best, within your available budget, display - since you will be keeping that for many years. It is the cornerstone of your HT experience. And, one that should last you many, many years.

Should you choose the PS3 as your BD player, you can rest assured that you will be taking advantage of the features that the Kuro offers. I'm sure that you will find the PS3 will do all the things you want/need from a BD player.

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post #749 of 4488 Old 11-11-2008, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
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Generally, the only time you notice it is during slower panning scenes. It's always bugged me a little bit, but it doesn't seem to get any worse (to me at least) as the screen size gets bigger. If you haven't really noticed it so far, then it shouldn't be an issue. Of course, now that you're aware of it, you'll probably begin noticing it.

Oh, THAT I've noticed on my regular tv and dvd player. (For example, during the opening credits of The Office when it's a tracking shot of the Scranton sign going by, you can see it "stutter" -- and I've noticed it with other things as well.)

So using the PS3's 1080p/24 mode with a TV that supports it (like the Pioneer) eliminates this? But I'd see it on the Panasonic 50PZ800U because that uses 2:3 pulldown (and is at 60Hx)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The PS3 does a very good job at de-interlacing and upscaling DVDs for output at 1080p. The only BD players that are better tend to be those using the Reon or Realta video processors (such as the Denon 3800).

So there are no bluray players below $400 that do a better job at playing SD dvds than the PS3 as far as PQ is concerned, is that correct? I know I've seen posts about some new players that have some kind of chip or other (but can't remember if it was the ones you mention or the HQV chip, which isn't the same thing, right?).

And that is either with the Pioneer or Panasonic in question...?

Thanks again!
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post #750 of 4488 Old 11-11-2008, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatHappend View Post

For legacy digital audio connections (non-hdmi) from the PS3 you should select bitstream from the PS3 audio options. Did you do that?

I remembered that bit from the HD discussion I happened upon in the past. So I do have it set to bitstream.

Do I need to only enable DTS and DD afterwards and disable the LCPM options for the available tracks?
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