Official PS3 FAQ Master Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkleafar View Post

Here is a question:

Does the PS3 physically and hardware-wise lacks the ability to ever be able to send lossless audio format in bitstream mode, or is it just a matter of waiting for a firmware update to enable this feature?

This has been beaten to death (do a search). Many users who have multiple players have reported that there is no discernable difference between bitstream audio to their AVR vs. using the PS3 to decode the audio and transmit it as PCM. There are a few (small but vocal minority) members who insist that bitstream sounds better.

If you really want bitstream for whatever reason, your best bet would simply be to buy a player that supports this feature.

Keep in mind that the folks at Criterion are using a PS3 as their BD player. If PCM from the PS3 is good enough for them, it's sure as hell good enough for me with my <$100K audio set up.
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post #62 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

This has been beaten to death (do a search). Many users who have multiple players have reported that there is no discernable difference between bitstream audio to their AVR vs. using the PS3 to decode the audio and transmit it as PCM. There are a few (small but vocal minority) members who insist that bitstream sounds better.

I'm in that minority. I believe that it's because the dedicated signal processors in my Onkyo 805 decode TrueHD and DTS-MA more accurately than the PS3. I would be VERY surprised to find out that accurate decoding of TrueHD and DTS-MA were as high on the PS3 teams priority list as it was for Onkyo.

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TrueHD = DTS-MA = LPCM
Low Bit Rate AVC > Low Bit Rate VC-1
High Bit Rate VC-1 > High Bit Rate AVC
MPEG-2 = Great for DVD and that's about it.
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post #63 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdev511 View Post

I'm in that minority. I believe that it's because the dedicated signal processors in my Onkyo 805 decode TrueHD and DTS-MA more accurately than the PS3. I would be VERY surprised to find out that accurate decoding of TrueHD and DTS-MA were as high on the PS3 teams priority list as it was for Onkyo.

You misunderstand the nature of decoding. It's not like translating Japanese into English, where the meaning and content are subjective and open to interpretation. It's like unpacking a ZIP file: either there are errors (in which case the decoder is defective and won't be certified by Dolby and DTS) or it's not (in which case the unpacked audio is 100% perfect).

You can, of course, "believe" whatever makes you feel good. But if the same lossless audio stream comes out of two decoders different from one another, one of those decoders is broken. The PS3 and your Onkyo (and my Onkyo) are not broken.

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post #64 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 08:44 PM
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I have a Sony Es3200 AVR with HDMI in/outs that does accept audio but i think the highest bit rate is PCM 96/24 which the PS3 apparently doesn't support via HDMI. I guess i won't be able to listen to the newest Audio Codecs will I ? Does the PS# support 96/24 via coax/optical?
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post #65 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

You misunderstand the nature of decoding. It's not like translating Japanese into English, where the meaning and content are subjective and open to interpretation. It's like unpacking a ZIP file: either there are errors (in which case the decoder is defective and won't be certified by Dolby and DTS) or it's not (in which case the unpacked audio is 100% perfect).

You can, of course, "believe" whatever makes you feel good. But if the same lossless audio stream comes out of two decoders different from one another, one of those decoders is broken. The PS3 and your Onkyo (and my Onkyo) are not broken.

Exactly.

It's like claiming that if you unzip an archive with an Apple computer it is somehow inferior to unzipping that same archive on a PC.
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post #66 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

Exactly.

It's like claiming that if you unzip an archive with an Apple computer it is somehow inferior to unzipping that same archive on a PC.

No, it's more like difference between unzipping a file on a processor that was built to do nothing but unzip as quickly and efficiently as possible or using software emulation on a multi-purpose processor that unzips files, processes video frames and decrypts the information that comes off the disc. They end up with the same bits, but in the case of uncompressing and streaming a file in real time.

No matter how good the Cell processor is, the PS3 doesn't have a dsp that's only purpose is to uncompress TrueHD and DTS-MA, the Cell and firmware have to perform that task. So when you're watching a BD and the Cell has a lot more work to do than just process the sound. The DSPs in a receiver aren't doing anything but decoding the lossless formats.

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TrueHD = DTS-MA = LPCM
Low Bit Rate AVC > Low Bit Rate VC-1
High Bit Rate VC-1 > High Bit Rate AVC
MPEG-2 = Great for DVD and that's about it.
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post #67 of 4485 Old 08-29-2008, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdev511 View Post

No, it's more like difference between unzipping a file on a processor that was built to do nothing but unzip as quickly and efficiently as possible or using software emulation on a multi-purpose processor that unzips files, processes video frames and decrypts the information that comes off the disc. They end up with the same bits, but in the case of uncompressing and streaming a file in real time.

No matter how good the Cell processor is, the PS3 doesn't have a dsp that's only purpose is to uncompress TrueHD and DTS-MA, the Cell and firmware have to perform that task. So when you're watching a BD and the Cell has a lot more work to do than just process the sound. The DSPs in a receiver aren't doing anything but decoding the lossless formats.

But if you make that claim then the only thing that the DSPs in a receiver are doing better is that they are doing it faster...when you say the DSPs uncompress the "zip file" more efficiently and quickly, all that you can possibly claim is speed. If you have a computer with 4 GB of RAM, and a quad core processor do the unzipping, it will probably be blazing fast. If you have a computer with 512 MB of ram, and a pentium 2 processor, it will probably be considerably slower. But that comparison is not teh case, because a PS3 and an onkyo 805 cant possibly be that far apart. If you compare the first computer mentioned to a Pentium Dual core processor and 2 GB of ram, then then unzipping would be a little slower, but not noticeably so. This comparison is a more befitting metaphor to the relationship between your 805 and the PS3. In other words, even if you claim that your 805 is "faster" at decoding, it will not make an audible a perceptible difference between the two. Just my two lil' coins
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post #68 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webdev511 View Post

No, it's more like difference between unzipping a file on a processor that was built to do nothing but unzip as quickly and efficiently as possible or using software emulation on a multi-purpose processor that unzips files, processes video frames and decrypts the information that comes off the disc. They end up with the same bits, but in the case of uncompressing and streaming a file in real time.

No matter how good the Cell processor is, the PS3 doesn't have a dsp that's only purpose is to uncompress TrueHD and DTS-MA, the Cell and firmware have to perform that task. So when you're watching a BD and the Cell has a lot more work to do than just process the sound. The DSPs in a receiver aren't doing anything but decoding the lossless formats.

Actually, if you knew anything about the Cell, you'd realize that it's more of a general purpose processor with 8 DSP cores hanging off of it. It's perfectly suited to signal processing, since that's what it was specifically designed to do. But hey, don't let little details like facts get in the way of your beliefs.

EDIT: And if you think the only purpose of a DSP in your receiver is to decode a compressed signal, you really need to go read up on how your receiver works.
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post #69 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 08:05 AM
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It seems we can never have thread concerning the PS3 without a lengthy debate of decoding in the player vs. decoding in the receiver. Speaking as an electronics engineer with 30+ years of work in digital communictions, the PCM bit string produced by the decoder with the PS3 should be identical (in terms of the sequence of ones and zeros) to the PCM bit string produced by the decoder within the AVR. However, there is still some potential for the sound quality out of the speakers to be different, depending on what additional processing the AVR does in these two cases. One specific example is the LPCM as received by the AVR from the PS3 will have addition jitter on the bit timing (HDMI adds jitter) and some AVRs will buffer and reclock this incoming PCM to remove the jitter, and some will not. If the AVR does the buffering and reclocking there is no technical reason why having the decoding external to the AVR is inferior to having the AVR doing the decoding. Like it says in Post #1 it all comes down to the capabilties of the AVR for handling LPCM inputs.

Bottom line is if you insist on having a bitstream output for the lossless Dolby and DTS audio formats, buy a stand-alone BD player instead of the PS3. I don't see any need to discuss this further in this thread.

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post #70 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

I have a Sony Es3200 AVR with HDMI in/outs that does accept audio but i think the highest bit rate is PCM 96/24 which the PS3 apparently doesn't support via HDMI. I guess i won't be able to listen to the newest Audio Codecs will I ? Does the PS# support 96/24 via coax/optical?

Bump
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post #71 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 03:21 PM
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I went in to check to see if my settings were correct after reading one of the PS3 threads. I have my PS3 connected to a yamaha 1700 via HDMI and receiver connected to my Pioneer plasma via HDMI. So I went into Display settings- Video output- HDMI-Auto, like instructed and I dont know if I did something wrong, I either hit the "X" button on the controller or hit it to the left and the screen went black??? But if I put game in it plays/displays it fine?? Any suggestions?? Thanks
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post #72 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dhark View Post

I went in to check to see if my settings were correct after reading one of the PS3 threads. I have my PS3 connected to a yamaha 1700 via HDMI and receiver connected to my Pioneer plasma via HDMI. So I went into Display settings- Video output- HDMI-Auto, like instructed and I dont know if I did something wrong, I either hit the "X" button on the controller or hit it to the left and the screen went black??? But if I put game in it plays/displays it fine?? Any suggestions?? Thanks

You likely selected by mistake a video resolution for display of the PS3's menus (the XMB) that your TV can't handle. Meanwhile the game is using 720p and your TV is fine with that. Here's what you do:

Eject the disc and turn off the PS3 with the front panel buttons.

Turn off the PS3 with its BACK panel power switch as well. Now turn that back panel power switch back on.

Now press and hold the PS3's front panel power button for between 5 and 10 seconds.

This will cause the PS3 to revert to its default video output settings which will make the XMB visible again. You can then go into the Settings and set up the video output the way you want.

Remember that on some of the settings screens you have to hit the RIGHT arrow button to accept the settings changes you have made.
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post #73 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 04:32 PM
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post #74 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 05:26 PM
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Thanks Bob that did it. Still not sure what I did? Should I be selecting 720p or 1080i for max resolution? I have a pioneer 42" 525cmx display
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post #75 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 06:47 PM
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Thanks Bob that did it. Still not sure what I did? Should I be selecting 720p or 1080i for max resolution? I have a pioneer 42" 525cmx display

Usually the Automatic HDMI setup will offer you all, and only, the choices that work for your display. So start with that -- see what the Automatic video setup offers and go with that unless you have good reason to make a change.

If there's a problem with the choices the Automatic video setup makes for you, you can change them. Look in the manual for your display to find out what it accepts as valid input video choices.

For Blu-Ray discs, use 1080p if your display will take that, otherwise use 1080i. All HDTVs have to accept 1080i since it is one of the standard HDTV broadcast resolutions. This will be true even if your display is a 720p display.
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post #76 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Can i use this http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1192835122014

with a PS3 ?

Yes, with add-on software it will work. If you are interested in Windows Home Server though I would recommend "rolling your own" as you can get a lot more bang for your buck than with the HP box.
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post #77 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

I have a Sony Es3200 AVR with HDMI in/outs that does accept audio but i think the highest bit rate is PCM 96/24 which the PS3 apparently doesn't support via HDMI. I guess i won't be able to listen to the newest Audio Codecs will I ? Does the PS# support 96/24 via coax/optical?

I assume are you talking about surround formats (e.g., Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA) and not just 2 channel stereo. The Optical out of the PS3 (and other devices for that matter), is limited to the basic Dolby Digital and DTS surround formats but can output 2 channel PCM at various standard rates including a 88.2 KHz (e.g., double the normal 44.1 sampling rate on CDs). HDMI on the other hand will result in your receiver and the PS3 doing a handshake where the AVR tells the PS3 what maximum PCM rates it can support and the PS3, when set to Auto for the audio, will select the highest data rate that it supports that is also compatible with the AVR. What is actually available out of the PS3 will also vary according to what the audio track characteristics are that is recorded on the disc i.e., sampling rate and number of bits per sample).

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post #78 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 07:40 PM
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Hey guys,

Excellent thread! BB also tried to get me to buy a standalone player but on the strength of the PS3 reviews amongst various threads here, I elected to purchase a PS3 anyway.

What is the best way to bypass the previews shown before the actual movie? I do have the Sony remote control.

Thanks.
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post #79 of 4485 Old 08-30-2008, 07:44 PM
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Thanx Ron-i'll have to settle for DolbyDigital then-i'm not gonna replace my receiver at this time. Sounds more than adequate now through the Es and my 5.3 system. Will use the HDMI for video only and the coax for audio.
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post #80 of 4485 Old 08-31-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post

Can i use this http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1192835122014

with a PS3 ?

Yes, I have one and it works fine
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post #81 of 4485 Old 08-31-2008, 10:24 AM
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Will the PS3 have he ability to carry/transfer Neural THX surround to my receiver that has Neural THX? I am getting the Yamaha RX-V3900 AVR in a few weeks.
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post #82 of 4485 Old 08-31-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mmiedema View Post

Will the PS3 have he ability to carry/transfer Neural THX surround to my receiver that has Neural THX? I am getting the Yamaha RX-V3900 AVR in a few weeks.

Neural THX is simply a sound processing system on the receiver.

Movies are not recorded in "neural sound".
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post #83 of 4485 Old 08-31-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jofer View Post

Hey guys,

............What is the best way to bypass the previews shown before the actual movie? I do have the Sony remote control.

Thanks.

Use the Chapter Forward button to advance to the next preview or movie (if the disc allows it). This will work for most discs I have tried.

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post #84 of 4485 Old 09-01-2008, 09:22 AM
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Thanks Ron.
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post #85 of 4485 Old 09-01-2008, 11:42 PM
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Advanced thanks for all your help. Here's my setup: HDMI for video output and optical for audio out connected to a MainstageHD single speaker. Should I be using bitstream or LPCM?
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post #86 of 4485 Old 09-02-2008, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnysd View Post

Advanced thanks for all your help. Here's my setup: HDMI for video output and optical for audio out connected to a MainstageHD single speaker. Should I be using bitstream or LPCM?

Please read the first post of this thread... it will do you a lot of good.

You may be particularly interested in Case 5 of the sample configurations.
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post #87 of 4485 Old 09-02-2008, 02:08 PM
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My question is two-fold really.

Part 1:

Everyone says the PS3 can't output highend DD/DTS over bitstream due to the following two ideas:

1. They haven't unlocked it via firmware
1a. Why would they NOT release one.

2. PS3 is hardware limited? If so HOW and WHY is this true?

Part 2:

If the PS3 is your only Blu-Ray player, pairing it up with a beast like 5808 for example is a complete waste? Since nothing is being decodeded in the reciever but in the PS3 and spit out LPCM. Feels like all the money you invested in is being unsed and might as well bought a 1909 or whatever.

More logical to buy a standalone Blu-Ray player for your highend receivers if you own one.

Thanks and appericate any help/input on this subject.
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post #88 of 4485 Old 09-02-2008, 02:15 PM
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Why a new thread? Hasn't this being discussed to the death already.
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post #89 of 4485 Old 09-02-2008, 02:17 PM
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Where have you been? This has been discussed to death. Apparently the PS3 does not have the proper HDMI 1.3 chipset to bitstream the advanced lossless codecs.

But the good news is that the PS3 does decode them internally and according to Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs, it decodes them 100% accurately (at least for TrueHD). Which means you lose absolutely nothing using a PS3 as your BD player.

As for your receiver point, I agree that buying a receiver with the advanced codec decoding on board is slightly pointless if using a PS3, but:
- Most receivers from Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha, Sony, etc are going to offer this on newer HDMI switching receivers.
- Going with a higher end receiver results in better performance, more wattage, more features, etc.
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post #90 of 4485 Old 09-02-2008, 02:18 PM
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codec support is not the only reason to buy a more expensive AVR. You also might need more power, want multi zone support, need more HDMI inputs, want better DACs, etc,etc,etc.
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