Do Blu ray players have better sound quality than HDDVD players? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Was talking with my friend last night about the differences in Blu ray and HDDVD. Is there any significant audio differences between the two...given you are watching the same movie?

My friend was explaining to me how blu ray audio is't compressed which makes an audible difference.

I am just trying to understand better because I want to add a PS3 to my entertainment system.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 07:37 AM
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No matter what he or anybody else tries to say about it. Effectively lossless audio is lossless audio. The informed and experienced audiophile would call it even.

Any other opinion starts to border on voodoo.

Blu-ray is going to steadily go away from offering Multi-ch PCM as it just takes up to much room and even the Multi-ch PCM tracks are only so high in resolution and bit depth anyways so you can easily pick that apart as well if you wanted to.
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post #3 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 07:38 AM
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Both formats offer a lossless audio (TrueHD)and if your comparing the same lossless track from each they will be the same as they are copies of the master

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post #4 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 07:49 AM
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However, your friend is somewhat correct as there is a strong trend for Paramount and Universal to only have a DD+ track and not TrueHD. DD+ is still pretty amazing (just watch Transformers) but technically its not lossless like TrueHD. Bluray seems to almost always have a lossless track although Fox uses DTSHDMA which very few players can play in full lossless. At least they do on new releases, catalogues not always.

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post #5 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 07:50 AM
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No, they don't.

Just enjoy HD in whatever form you can (Sat, Cable, D-VHS, OTA, HD DVD, or BD).
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post #6 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 08:14 AM
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Although this is probably not what you're asking, I would point out that the PS3 is an SACD player as well as a Blu-Ray player. I'm blown away by the quality of music I hear on SACD's playing on my PS3.
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post #7 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 08:26 AM
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No end of story both sound great. And like others have stated even the DD+ sounds great.
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post #8 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 09:43 AM
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If the question is "does one format inherently sound better?" the answer is no. But the title of the thread is "Do Blu players have better sound quality than HDDVD players?"

And the answer to that is a definite "sometimes".

If you have a reciever that can decode the new formats and a HDM player (either BD or HD DVD) then it will sound exactly the same (although more Blu-rays have lossless sound tracks, so you will get consistently better sound). If you have an older reciever (like I do) you will have to decode the audio in the player and convert it from digital form (as it's stored on the disk) to analog form (to go out the wires to your reciever), in which case the Panny BD-10 sounds better than any player I've heard on either side.

Also, in that case the players without multi-channel analog outputs (e.g. the cheaper Toshibas) will never sound close to as good.

So in short:

1) Both formats have equal ability to sound good, but right now more Blu-ray movies come with lossless or compressed sound

2) If you have a reciever that can decode the hidef formats, all players tha can bitstream the codecs over HDMI sound equally good (limited by how good your reciever is)

3) If you have an older reciever like 98% of the market does, then the player itself matters a lot; cheap players with no audio outs obviously do not sound as good, and players with inferior digital audio converters (DACs) do not sound as good as players with really good ones (IMO the Panny BD-10 is the best here).

To my knowledge there are no HD DVD players with the sophistication of the BD-10 in the audio-decoding and D/A conversion, but to be fair I have no heard the Onkyo player, which by some reports have upgraded DACs from the Toshiba player it's based on.

So if you really want the best audio, either upgrade your reciever, or look into the Panny BD-10, and possibly check out the Onkyo HD DVD player (and write to studios asking them to support lossless sound tracks on their releases).

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post #9 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 10:11 AM
 
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Regarding this question.....Won't the internals of each player decide which has the best sound quality....What OpAmps are used and the DACS etc etc not to mention the actual Amp or Receiver you are feeding....Seems to me there could be plenty of variables to take into account and even your speakers and Subwoofer and how they are set up.
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post #10 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Regarding this question.....Won't the internals of each player decide which has the best sound quality....What OpAmps are used and the DACS etc etc not to mention the actual Amp or Receiver you are feeding....Seems to me there could be plenty of variables to take into account and even your speakers and Subwoofer and how they are set up.

correct!

Both Formats SHOULD offer the same quality when same components are used. However, If a brand chooses to implement other ways to decrease distortion, jitter etc. it COULD sound different.

Regarding to soundtracks on both formats, Blu-Ray offers more DTS HD-MA movies, so at the time of speaking, I'd say Blu-Ray offers more when it comes to high quality lossless audio.
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post #11 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 11:42 AM
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However, if you look at lossless or PCM audio then Blu-ray has the sonic advantage over HD-DVD.

Although DD+ lossy can sound good, it's still not as good as master quality lossless audio!


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post #12 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 12:47 PM
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More titles on BD that have lossless than HD-DVD?
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post #13 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 01:03 PM
 
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However, if you look at lossless or PCM audio then Blu-ray has the sonic advantage over HD-DVD.

Absolutely does not. DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD are both used, or can be used on both formats and both are at the very least equal to PCM of equal bit depth and sampling frequency. For that matter, PCM could be used on HD DVD. It's allowed by the spec. But, why?
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post #14 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 01:20 PM
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Ok, this thread is grasping at straws... I highly doubt a good trained ear could tell the difference using the same sound format. Even though I lean more Blu, I doubt one can hear the difference using the same sound formats, especially during movie playback.
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post #15 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 01:24 PM
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Yes!

BD has far more lossless titles than HD DVD. So odds are that on a 'per movie' basis, you'll likely find that BD will more often have a lossless track and will have the potential to sound better*

* System dependent.

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post #16 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

....PCM could be used on HD DVD. It's allowed by the spec. But, why

Why?

Lack of space, IME.....(on a 25 gb disc).

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post #17 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 02:27 PM
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I have both format's and they both sound great, I not sure you would here any difference's between the two as long as both are using the same lossless or non lossless audio. Blu ray does have more space for more lossless audio options such as PCM. I am not sure but is there some HD DVD's with PCM?

Mike
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post #18 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbansniper View Post

Was talking with my friend last night about the differences in Blu ray and HDDVD. Is there any significant audio differences between the two...given you are watching the same movie?

Not really. It depends on the movie/studio's decision. At present, only Warner and some old Paramount titles allow you to do this comparison.

Quote:


My friend was explaining to me how blu ray audio is't compressed which makes an audible difference.

Relative to DVD-Video which has lossy compression for audio.

Quote:


I am just trying to understand better because I want to add a PS3 to my entertainment system.

Make sure you have at least a receiver with HDMI connection.

Cheers!
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post #19 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 03:13 PM
 
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Quote:


Why?

Lack of space, IME.....(on a 25 gb disc).

No, Bland. I said, PCM is allowed on HD DVD, but why use it, not why not use it.

And HD DVD does not have a 25 GB disc. That's Blu-ray.
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post #20 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 03:21 PM
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You are right, 31 gb disc. And still not enough space... At least the Paranount exec was honest.

I am all for wasting space. It shows you have far more than you need and the compression will be minimal. This may explain the 4X disparity in lossless audio soundtracks when comparing BD to HD DVD...Lack of space, the desire to get out the least expensive product and no desire to cater to the audiophiles / videophiles. That is what I see in HD DVD.

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post #21 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garman View Post

I highly doubt a good trained ear could tell the difference using the same sound format. Even though I lean more Blu, I doubt one can hear the difference using the same sound formats, especially during movie playback.

No one can hear the difference between lossless tracks on either format because formats don't make noise, they just store it. As long as your player just bitstreams the hidef audio (or sends PCM) over HDMI there is no difference at all, as they are mathematically identical.

But if you have to use analog outputs (as most do) then several difference in parts in your player can effect audio playback, and do so noticeably. I've played about 2 dozen movies (about 1/3 with lossless tracks) on my A1 and it never sounds as good as lossless tracks on my BD10. It's not a problem with the format, it's the DACs used in each player.

I'm not into audio-phoolery and $1,000 cables, but if you think there's no difference in digital to audio converters in different equipment you haven't been listening to good equipment.

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post #22 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottscay View Post

But if you have to use analog outputs (as most do) then several difference in parts in your player can effect audio playback, and do so noticeably.

Most? I would contend that most people without HDMI receivers are using S/PDIF, not analog outs. That's just a hunch though.

OP, try to filter out the spin, it's a title by title basis. The various titles on each format have different audio specs, but the simplest answer to your question is "no", Blu-ray audio tracks are not inherently better sounding than HD DVD audio tracks. You also need to consider your equipment, if you're using S/PDIF, then you're already limiting your audio choices to the extent this is a non-issue.
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post #23 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I am all for wasting space.

Agreed! Your post history is proof
Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

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post #24 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Regarding this question.....Won't the internals of each player decide which has the best sound quality....What OpAmps are used and the DACS etc...

Not if you're using HDMI, no amps or DACs involved. If you're using the multi-channel analog outs, then yes.

To the OP, like just about everyone else has said, and assuming all else is equal (HDMI out, capable receiver, bit depth) then BR and HD DVD will sound the same.

PQ is the same, too, in case you're wondering.

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post #25 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

You are right, 31 gb disc. And still not enough space... At least the Paranount exec was honest.

I am all for wasting space. It shows you have far more than you need and the compression will be minimal. This may explain the 4X disparity in lossless audio soundtracks when comparing BD to HD DVD...Lack of space, the desire to get out the least expensive product and no desire to cater to the audiophiles / videophiles. That is what I see in HD DVD.

It's a good thing what you see and what is reality rarely cross paths then.

More and more Universal and Paramount HD DVD's are coming with TrueHD, and Warner almost ALWAYS packs a TrueHD track in their movies.

Wasting space is pretty much what all folks who are lazy when it comes to efficiency fall back on. Why advance technology when we can just use up more space?
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post #26 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 09:30 PM
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100% of the time depends on the title...

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post #27 of 45 Old 12-21-2007, 10:32 PM
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This thread is going in all directions. The way the question was put is a bit confusing. We are in the players forum, the title mentions players, so presumably this is about players, not the format. But the first post mentions the two formats as a whole and for the same movie (so it really narrows down to dual format releases) and the PS3 (and not other players).

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post #28 of 45 Old 12-22-2007, 04:15 AM
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Any title counts showing a break down of total titles by the audio offered on them for both formats?

I guess I could research it myself. The DTS-MA is a tough one on BD as very very few people can ever get that one right now.
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post #29 of 45 Old 12-22-2007, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottscay View Post

To my knowledge there are no HD DVD players with the sophistication of the BD-10 in the audio-decoding and D/A conversion, but to be fair I have no heard the Onkyo player, which by some reports have upgraded DACs from the Toshiba player it's based on.

The HD-A1 and HD-XA1 also have FANTASTIC DACs. So good that those players make suitable replacements for $3,000+ CD players.

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post #30 of 45 Old 12-22-2007, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

However, if you look at lossless or PCM audio then Blu-ray has the sonic advantage over HD-DVD.

Although DD+ lossy can sound good, it's still not as good as master quality lossless audio!


Dan

The funny thing is out of all the next gen audio titles I have heard at full capacity bitstreaming to my Onkyo 885 on both BR and HD-DVD, my 2 very favorite audio tracks are lossy DD+ tracks with King Kong and Transformers. Live Free or Die Hard, X-Men 3 (both DTS-MA) and Superman Returns (TrueHD) would all be a close 3rd though. It seems obvious to my ears (not everyones I am sure) that anything beyond DD+ at 1.5 has only the possibility for a ever so slight advantage and even then it is so small that it would not be significant. I personaly have not heard any DTS-MA, TrueHD, or PCM track that was better than the DD+ tracks on Transformers and King Kong.

As long as it is DD+ at 1.5 or better, I dont even think about "well what if it had TrueHD, DTS-MA, or PCM?" They all can sound fantastic at this stage and any difference between them is extremely slight IMHO from my listening.

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