DTS Master Audio...Uncompressed PCM...and a Whole Bunch of Headaches... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

it's been explained several times in excruciating detail to you why and what is happening... the "solution" (which i, sanjay and others have suggested) is to turn the volume knob to the right (or, as thebland suggested, set a separate calibration for it)...

the horse is dead... stop beating the poor thing...

Oh... so now YOU undestand, eh?
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post #92 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 11:23 AM
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Some observations from my system....all speakers large, Mirage BPS-400 for LFE only. I have an XA2 HD-DVD connected by analogue 5.1 and L/R analogue, a BD-S500 Blu-ray connected by HDMI and L/R analogue and a Sony RDR-GX7 DVD recorder connected by L/R analogue to a Yamaha RX-V861 used only for an audio pre amp/processor. My component video and coaxial digital connections are switched through a Key Digital switcher, with the digital bitstream going to a Marantz DP-870 DD decoder (I like the sound and this was my original DD source - and it has an Rf input for LD - so no "processing" is done in the V861). To balance the various levels to reference 75 dB this is what I have recorded....I aim the SPL to about 72 dB as it is plenty loud...so the Radio shack meter should read +5 if at reference.

Internal Marantz tones (the starting point):
+4 all channels no LFE tone.

BDP S-500 (all output PCM via HDMI):
DVE DVD (DD) all channels +1, LFE +10 (noted problem with this disc)
Video essentials all channels +2, LFE +3 to +6
- All levels approximately the same when the L/R analogue sent to 861 and decoded as PLIImovie except there is no LFE signal.
- All levels approximately the same when the DD bitstream for DVE and VE is sent to the Marantz 870.

XA2 HD-DVD (all output analogue 5.1)
DVE DVD (DD) all channels +1, LFE +10
Video essentials all channels +2, LFE +3 to +6
DVE HD DVD (True HD) all channels +.5 to +1, LFE +6 to +7
- All levels approximately the same when the L/R analogue sent to 861 and decoded as PLIImovie except there is no LFE signal.
- All levels approximately the same when the DD bitstream for DVE, VE and DVE HD DVD is sent to the Marantz 870.

RDR GX7 DVD recorder (DD bitstream to Marantz, analogue to 861)
DVE DVD (DD) all channels +1, LFE +10
Video essentials all channels +2, LFE +3 to +6
All levels approximately the same when the L/R analogue sent to 861 and decoded as PLIImovie except there is no LFE signal.

As you can see (I think, there are lots of measurements - remember I set up a reference SPL of 72 dB with the original Video Essentials DVD - and Laserdisc years ago - and all are relatively consistant) all of the levels are consistant across all the platforms and "codecs" at least, to within a dB or so. All the level trims into the Yamaha 861 are more or less within a dB or so of each other except the bass level for the XA2 analogue LFE is a little higher compared to the HDMI input for the S-500. At present, I do not have a level source for the PCM tracks on Blu-ray, but the sound levels appear to be the same and the LFE also appears to be at the same level. Last night during POTC: Dead Man's Chest The bass from the PCM channels was spectacular and at one point I got next to the sub to "check" LFE and the "thumf" sound at that point moved the air between myseff and the subwoofer, so there does not seem to be any loss of volume based on that. If the LFE is off by 10 dB and was indicated in a few posts, I think it would be unbearable in my setup with a 10 dB boost!

The only consistant "anomoly" I found is that DTS decoded streams (from the S500) are a lot louder than DD, DD+, True HD or PCM, so I will tend to stay with the Dolby variants or PCM. As a matter of fact, in Die Hard 4, the DTS stream caused my 861 to shut down twice (at explosions) for no reason I can figure out! I do not find the PCM tracks to be "lower" in level, the loud parts and the Low frequencies are seemingly at the same levels as the Dolby variants. The dynamic range is probably greater and as a result, some scenes may seem lower in level, but generally they seem "cleaner" and more defined. The same thing can be heard in music, the "compressed" stuff is louder and may appear "better" but it is more fatiguing to listen to and is always loud, no range. The better recordings are lower in overall volume and you can just increase the volume a bit to have the louder sound and dynamics.... Just my 2 cents worth and some of my observations...it is snowing outside here and there is not much else to do, therefore this rather long rambling post, hope some of it is useful....this hobby is getting too complicated, or I am getting too old.

Cheers,
P.E.H.
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post #93 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 11:54 AM
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So Die Hard 4 caused your 861 to shut down! After how long? Was it overly hot? Did it re-set automatically? Die Hard 4 is a really challenging film sound wise. I actually feared for my sytem during some of the more intense scenes.
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post #94 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 12:39 PM
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The shutdown of the 861 seems strange to me. I wouldn't think it to be heat as the power amps are not used, only the pre amp section. I would also assume that the HDMI being digital cannot overload, unless the pre out section overloaded. It occured at the two big explosions, just turning on the receiver again reset it. The sound was overly loud (as noted in my observations on DTS) and I was tempted to turn it down a bit, but since I am at a reference level of 3-4 dB below the 75 dB, I figured what the hey, let it rip.... The power amps in the system were OK, no shutdown, unless there was some funny feedback from something. After the second shutdown I reduced the volume to -2 dB (I have my reference level set as 0 dB) and the rest of the movie played fine, even the Jet sequence and crash. There were no warning messages, just a complete shutdown! No other problems on any of the other Die Hards or other DTS MA "PCM decoded DTS" movies or any PCM Blu-rays (or any HD-DVD for that matter). Curious, maybe the pre amp did overheat (??) but I would not think so....maybe too high a signal level?? I posted in the 861 owners thread, but no responses.

P.E.H.
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post #95 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phannon View Post

The shutdown of the 861 seems strange to me. I wouldn't think it to be heat as the power amps are not used, only the pre amp section.
P.E.H.



Are your power amp(s) plugged into the same circuit as your preamp? The huge current draw when loud explosions hit could have caused the protection circuit in the preamp to trigger, if the circuit's limitations were met.

Lee

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post #96 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 02:10 PM
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My LFE sub, centre channel amp and centre sub (line level connection between Yamaha and centre amp), rear channel amp (120 watt Sony receiver) as well as monitor, Yamaha, disc players and Marantz decoder are on the one circuit. The left and right channel Rotel amp and Mirage OM-6 speakers (built in 200 watt subs) are on a separate circuit. Both circuits are Panamax protected (max 1000+ for the Yamaha circuit) as well as having a couple of Monster power bars to tidy up the power cords. Only the Yamaha (again, only used as a preamp) shut off, nothing else tripped. Maybe the Yamaha is sensitive, but it would seem to be a real problem if it was also powering the speakers. Unless it was some sort of "goofy" HDMI problem...

Cheers,
P.E.H.
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post #97 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by quad user View Post

Oh... so now YOU undestand, eh?

no, actually, i've understood since the beginning...

- chris

 

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post #98 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phannon View Post

The shutdown of the 861 seems strange to me. I wouldn't think it to be heat as the power amps are not used, only the pre amp section. I would also assume that the HDMI being digital cannot overload, unless the pre out section overloaded. It occured at the two big explosions, just turning on the receiver again reset it. The sound was overly loud (as noted in my observations on DTS) and I was tempted to turn it down a bit, but since I am at a reference level of 3-4 dB below the 75 dB, I figured what the hey, let it rip.... The power amps in the system were OK, no shutdown, unless there was some funny feedback from something. After the second shutdown I reduced the volume to -2 dB (I have my reference level set as 0 dB) and the rest of the movie played fine, even the Jet sequence and crash. There were no warning messages, just a complete shutdown! No other problems on any of the other Die Hards or other DTS MA "PCM decoded DTS" movies or any PCM Blu-rays (or any HD-DVD for that matter). Curious, maybe the pre amp did overheat (??) but I would not think so....maybe too high a signal level?? I posted in the 861 owners thread, but no responses.

P.E.H.

I would bet you have a damaged speaker cable somewhere...I had this happen in a similar situation with 50 AVS members at my home for a meet.

We were playing Saving Private Ryan at reference level and as soon as a big mortar exploded, so did the system shut down. We traced it to a damaged sub wire... It obviously arced when power levels were maxed.

Check your cables and wiring at the back of your pseakers / subs.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #99 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Dolby Digital tracks on Blu-ray are encoded at 640Kbps. Dolby Digital tracks on DVD are generally 448Kbps.

Okay, THIS was useful information -- can anyone else confirm that these rates are correct? And then let me ask you this: COULD THIS BE THE REASON THAT THE DOLBY DIGITAL TRACKS ON BLU-RAY SOUND BETTER TO MY EAR THAN THOSE ON DVD?

That is correct when it comes to DTS-HD MA titles, although you get standard DTS-ES, not some "enhanced DTS."

What do you mean we get DTS ES -- why would DTS ES be extracted from a core DTS Master Audio 5.1 track? I don't even have the sixth speaker in back to complete a DTS ES configuration, so what the heck would I be hearing?

You're the first person who's told me that DTS ES is derived from a Master Audio mix when playing it back on equipment that cannot support Master Audio...can anyone else confirm this?

However, when set to PCM, the player will decode DTS-HD High Resolution tracks.

Okay, reading this above statement from you has me REALLY concerned if it is indeed true...before you, I was being told that BECAUSE THIS PLAYER CANNOT HANDLE OR SUPPORT MASTER AUDIO, THE SIMPLE DTS "CORE" MIX WOULD BE EXTRACTED FROM A MASTER AUDIO TRACK ON THIS PLAYER...AND SO IT DID NOT MATTER WHETHER OR NOT I KEPT THE DTS-HD AUDIO OUTPUT SETTING ON THE PLAYER ON BITSTREAM OR PCM -- EITHER WAY, THE CORE DTS MIX WAS BEING SENT....

Now, you're telling me that if I keep the DTS-HD AUDIO OUT on PCM on the player, I'll be getting the DTS-HD extraction from these Master Audio tracks....and THAT should be the way to listen to them, not with regular extracted CORE DTS?

Can anyone else please confirm this? Does the Panny '10A send the decoded DTS HD stream to a receiver over PCM when the DTS-HD output is set to PCM, or does the STANDARD, DERIVED DTS CORE MIX simply transfer over to a receiver, bitstreamed or PCM?
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post #100 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Another example. I sold my old Onkyo receiver to a friend. It was the SR601 I believe. It doesn't have HDMI. He plays BD's on his PS3 with LPCM by way of optical which only allows a 2 channel track, yet even there the volume is significantly louder than the DD or DTS tracks.

Correct me if I am wrong anyone, but most are getting what I describe and you seem to be the rule to the exception.

I believe there is something not setup right on your end.

There were a few others who experienced the same "lowering" effect of the PCM audio that I did; I cannot seem to trace them back over the four pages right now.

At any rate, I will go over this once more for you:

My setup is as follows:

HDMI OUT OF THE PANASONIC '10A BLU-RAY PLAYER TO HDMI IN (1) OF THE ONKYO TX-SR605 RECEIVER....THEN HDMI OUT OF THE ONKYO TO HDMI IN OF THE SONY SXRD DISPLAY...

With this setup, and running Blu-ray uncompressed tracks, the uncompressed tracks sound SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER IN OUTPUT when immediately compared to the Dolby track on the same disc on the fly, using the disc's pop-up menu feature.
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post #101 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 03:45 PM
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With this setup, and running Blu-ray uncompressed tracks, the uncompressed tracks sound SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER IN OUTPUT when immediately compared to the Dolby track on the same disc on the fly, using the disc's pop-up menu feature.


I tested this....I'll bet if you take out your SPL meter, you'll find it 4 db lower compared to the non PCM track. (Dialnorm level is -4 db, as Sanjay pointed out). THere is no dialnorm on PCM tracks...only on Dolby / DTS bitstream.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #102 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I tested this....I'll bet if you take out your SPL meter, you'll find it 4 db lower compared to the non PCM track. (Dialnorm level is -4 db, as Sanjay pointed out). THere is no dialnorm on PCM tracks...only on Dolby / DTS bitstream.

i'm guessing he doesn't have a spl meter...

- chris

 

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post #103 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 05:02 PM
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With this setup, and running Blu-ray uncompressed tracks, the uncompressed tracks sound SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER IN OUTPUT when immediately compared to the Dolby track on the same disc on the fly, using the disc's pop-up menu feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I tested this....I'll bet if you take out your SPL meter, you'll find it 4 db lower compared to the non PCM track. (Dialnorm level is -4 db, as Sanjay pointed out). THere is no dialnorm on PCM tracks...only on Dolby / DTS bitstream.

If this was the case then the uncompressed PCM tracks would be louder then the Dolby tracks. Dialnorm has nothing to do with this, my best guess would be that the PCM tracks are -4 db lower coming out of the player which is what I found with my PS3 and XA2. I bet he is sending the regular Dolby bitstream to the pre/pro to be decoded, if he sets his Blu-Ray player to decode the regular Dolby tracks internally they will also be off by -4 db since it would be output as PCM also.
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post #104 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

no, actually, i've understood since the beginning...

Well... then I congratulate you on your 20/20 hindsight and your incredible aptitute for the obvious.
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post #105 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 07:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post


Now, you're telling me that if I keep the DTS-HD AUDIO OUT on PCM on the player, I'll be getting the DTS-HD extraction from these Master Audio tracks....and THAT should be the way to listen to them, not with regular extracted CORE DTS?

A DTS HD MA track does NOT contain the extensions for DTS HD HR (High Resolution). Only DTS core can be extracted from the DTS HD MA track.
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post #106 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

I tested this....I'll bet if you take out your SPL meter, you'll find it 4 db lower compared to the non PCM track. (Dialnorm level is -4 db, as Sanjay pointed out). THere is no dialnorm on PCM tracks...only on Dolby / DTS bitstream.

Okay....so you ARE saying -- just so I get this straight -- that there is a FOUR DECIBEL DIFFERENCE between the PCM and Dolby tracks on the given Blu-ray disc -- the PCM TRACK being the LOWER one?
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post #107 of 189 Old 12-28-2007, 10:06 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

A DTS HD MA track does NOT contain the extensions for DTS HD HR (High Resolution). Only DTS core can be extracted from the DTS HD MA track.

Okay...

Can you explain this to be in some greater detail or try to make this a little easier to understand? The manual is of abolutely no help in this matter...

In the '10A's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT setup menu, there are selections for this:

PCM DOWNCONVERSION ON/OFF (I have this set to OFF)

DOLBY DIGITAL PCM/BITSTREAM (I have this set to BITSTREAM)

DOLBY DIGITAL PLUS/DOLBY TRUEHD PCM/BITSTREAM (I have this set to PCM because the PLAYER cannot send these bitstream, only decode them and send them PCM)

DTS BITSTREAM/PCM (I have this set to BITSTREAM)

DTS-HD BITSTREAM/PCM (This is where the confusion comes in...)


Now, with these settings above, much confusion comes from the manual, which is just about useless, and I haven't been able to get reliable, definitive answers from anyone else either from Panasonic themselves or online...

The main problem is with MASTER AUDIO tracks, which are not supported by the Panasonic '10A...the MANUAL says that in SUBSTITUTION of these tracks, DTS will be used "as an alternative"...so, for some reason, the "DTS-HD" settings in the player's DIGITAL AUDIO OUTPUT menu (see above) seems to be affecting these Master Audio tracks when I play them on this unit...again, no one can confirm for me what happens during playback of these tracks on this machine...

I just watched LIVE FREE OR DIE HARD on Blu-ray, and kept the "DTS-HD" output of this player on PCM and selected the disc's MASTER AUDIO mix off the menu...my equipment did the HDMI handshake, and then my receiver read "MULTICH" indicating it was receiving some kind of PCM signal -- I ONLY DID THIS BECAUSE I WAS TOLD BY ANOTHER MEMBER ABOVE THAT IF I KEEP THE DTS HD OUTPUT ON PCM, I WILL BE GETTING THE DTS-HD SIGNAL DECODED AND SENT TO MY RECEIVER....however, now you're telling me that the DTS HD cannot be extracted by this player and ONLY THE REGULAR CORE DTS TRACK WILL BE HEARD....so then my question becomes, does it even matter what I keep the DTS-HD output setting on, BITSTREAM or PCM if only the core DTS mix is going to heard anyway when playing Master Audio tracks on this player? The BITSTREAM method sounds better on my system rather than PCM; but what is the final answer here?

Does "DTS HD" get played back instead of DTS Master Audio if this player cannot support Master Audio, or is the regular DTS "core" mix actually being extracted either way? And then the question becomes this: WHY DOES THE PLAYER'S ONSCREEN STATUS DISPLAY READ "DTS-HD MULTI" when I play back these Master Audio tracks? No matter what I keep the setting on -- BITSTREAM or PCM -- the display from the remote reads "DTS-HD MULTI" when I play Master Audio tracks....what does this suggest? That perhaps the DTS-HD EXTRACTED stream IS IN FACT being sent over PCM?
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post #108 of 189 Old 12-29-2007, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter67 View Post

Dialnorm has nothing to do with this

Right. Dialnorm could explain why the TrueHD calibration track that Jeff was using would play back 4dB softer than the internal calibration tones of his pre-pro. But, as you said, a PCM track (which doesn't have Dialnorm) should play back 4dB louder than any of the Dolby tracks. However, the opposite is happening, which means the explanation lies elsewhere.

Sanjay

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post #109 of 189 Old 12-29-2007, 05:32 AM
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I have my two HD players (Sony BDPS1, Toshiba A20) outputs set at PCM (vs. bitstream) in their respective "player menus." My Onkyo 885 pre/pro then displays "Multi PCM" in @ 48khz, and 96khz respectively (which is exactly what it is receiving). This works perfect for me until I replace both players w/ HBR capable bitstream players. I will then process (my goal) all audio streams "inside" the 885. For me - it will be satisfying to read "Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital+," and "DTS Master Audio" on my 885's display. Just a mental thing I know - but that will confirm (before I sit down to watch a movie) exactly what audio stream is being processed from the disc.
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post #110 of 189 Old 12-29-2007, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

Okay....so you ARE saying -- just so I get this straight -- that there is a FOUR DECIBEL DIFFERENCE between the PCM and Dolby tracks on the given Blu-ray disc -- the PCM TRACK being the LOWER one?

That is very common, yes.

I find I must frequently turn up the volume on PCM tracks because every channel is lower (not just the LFE).
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post #111 of 189 Old 12-29-2007, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I have my two HD players (Sony BDPS1, Toshiba A20) outputs set at PCM (vs. bitstream) in their respective "player menus."

John,

Thank you for your insight and for giving some more input on this debatable topic; can I ask you, when you say these players are set to output PCM instead of bitstream, for which codecs do you mean -- the high resolution codecs the machines support (Dolby Digital Plus, TrueHD, etc.)? Do you also keep your legacy codecs set to PCM as well (Dolby Digital, DTS)? If so, you would probably benefit from keeping those on bitstream and sending the others PCM, from what I have learned so far.

My Onkyo 885 pre/pro then displays "Multi PCM" in @ 48khz, and 96khz respectively (which is exactly what it is receiving).

Okay -- right there -- can I ask you: is this normal operating status for Onkyos, or is this just for their higher end stuff, including their pre pros? My TX-SR605 displays "MULTICH" in large letters across the display screen when playing back PCM tracks, with "MULTICHANNEL/PCM/HDMI" illuminated in very small lettering above this message....is this the correct listening mode for the PCM/uncompressed tracks on all Onkyos?

If I switch the SPEAKER SETTINGS on my Panny '10A to "2-CHANNEL," then the playback behavior on the Onkyo gets weird -- if the player is kept on 2-CHANNEL speaker output, and I play an uncompressed PCM track from a disc, then suddenly my receiver lets me use all the DSP modes available -- such as Pro Logic II, All Channel Stereo, etc. -- and these sound horrible being processed over the PCM tracks...so, MULTICHANNEL should be the only listening mode used for these tracks?

This works perfect for me until I replace both players w/ HBR capable bitstream players. I will then process (my goal) all audio streams "inside" the 885. For me - it will be satisfying to read "Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital+," and "DTS Master Audio" on my 885's display. Just a mental thing I know - but that will confirm (before I sit down to watch a movie) exactly what audio stream is being processed from the disc.

I TOTALLY agree with you here 1,000-percent -- that is MY goal as well, to finally see the TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio, etc. lights FINALLY illuminate on my Onkyo instead of going through all this PCM rhetoric; I agree that getting the processing done at the RECEIVER or PRE PRO is the "better" way to do it; for now, until I can upgrade my '10A for a model that sends these codecs bitstreamed, I have to get a handle on how I need to send these tracks to my '605....
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post #112 of 189 Old 12-29-2007, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That is very common, yes.

I find I must frequently turn up the volume on PCM tracks because every channel is lower (not just the LFE).

Well, then, I guess that's the final answer to my question and there's nothing I can do about it...I was misinformed about this whole "uncompressed/PCM/high resolution" audio from out of the gate, which lead me to believe that these uncompressed tracks were going to be louder, more forceful and just more "in your face" and aggressive as compared to Dolby and DTS tracks...again, it was my misconception. Thank you for confirming this.

Well, until I get a player that sends out the new codecs via bitstream, I'll have to live with the lower-sounding PCM tracks on these discs; I do have the option of playing some of these titles in Dolby Digital, such as the Pirates discs, but this still, below, has not been confirmed for me:

If the Dolby Digital tracks on Blu-ray discs are encoded at a higher bitrate than on DVD, could THIS be why they sound better to my ear?
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post #113 of 189 Old 12-29-2007, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

I'll have to live with the lower-sounding PCM tracks on these discs; I do have the option of playing some of these titles in Dolby Digital

Why would you resort to a louder lossy audio track when you can raise the level on the lossless track? You want quality, not quantity (which can be had with a twist of the volume knob).
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If the Dolby Digital tracks on Blu-ray discs are encoded at a higher bitrate than on DVD, could THIS be why they sound better to my ear?

Yes, DD at 640kbps can sound better than DD at 448kbps. The Pink Floyd DVD 'Pulse' has the audio encoded at both rates (640kbps is outside the spec for DD on DVD, and some devices will not play it, which is a 448kbps version was included). You can switch back and forth between the two tracks and hear the difference. Subtle, but it's there (especially on the trailing edge of sounds).

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post #114 of 189 Old 12-30-2007, 04:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That is very common, yes.

I find I must frequently turn up the volume on PCM tracks because every channel is lower (not just the LFE).

Again, something is not right here. I find the opposite very common with the people I personally know who have PS3's. In fact go into a HT store and try out there equipment since they have it set up correctly, at least the ones I went to do, and ask to watch a BD. I have listened to several PCM tracks and they are just like at my home, louder, significantly louder than DD. I have done this at CC, Magnolia Hi Fi and Magnolia BB.
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post #115 of 189 Old 12-30-2007, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

There were a few others who experienced the same "lowering" effect of the PCM audio that I did; I cannot seem to trace them back over the four pages right now.

At any rate, I will go over this once more for you:

My setup is as follows:

HDMI OUT OF THE PANASONIC '10A BLU-RAY PLAYER TO HDMI IN (1) OF THE ONKYO TX-SR605 RECEIVER....THEN HDMI OUT OF THE ONKYO TO HDMI IN OF THE SONY SXRD DISPLAY...

With this setup, and running Blu-ray uncompressed tracks, the uncompressed tracks sound SIGNIFICANTLY LOWER IN OUTPUT when immediately compared to the Dolby track on the same disc on the fly, using the disc's pop-up menu feature.


Everything is returnable. Try this. Get a PS3 and the Denon4308ci like I have and then try it. If it isn't as I say, then I will eat crow. I wonder if those that are experiencing this issue have run Audyssey or other sound calibration programs.
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post #116 of 189 Old 12-30-2007, 06:43 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Hunter67 View Post

Dialnorm has nothing to do with this

I see many here have confused increased dynamic range (aka 85dB SPL) with increased average volume compression aka (loudness)

Not all DD disc are coded with (-27dBFS) dialnorm, in fact Dolby guidelines recommend 79dB SPL aka (-25dBFS). In reality many Dolby releases further compress and raise the average volume beyond -25dBFS. Unfortunately it seems the Mixing engineers just leave their DD encoder Dialnorm metadata setting to the factory default of (-27dBFS).
http://www.aes.org/technical/documen...s.cfm?docID=65

Dialnorm is a useless feature that makes HT monitor calibration futile. Dialnorm is really targeted for broadcast paradigms i.e. where programs of “varying mix average volume” are assembled in real time.

btw dts DVD release soundtracks do NOT implement dialnorm for good reason, with dts you are receiving the true 85dB SPL theatrical mix. This and many other reasons is why dts is the preferred codec.
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post #117 of 189 Old 12-30-2007, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Again, something is not right here. I find the opposite very common with the people I personally know who have PS3's. In fact go into a HT store and try out there equipment since they have it set up correctly, at least the ones I went to do, and ask to watch a BD. I have listened to several PCM tracks and they are just like at my home, louder, significantly louder than DD. I have done this at CC, Magnolia Hi Fi and Magnolia BB.

As I noted in a prior post, the PS3 boosts the volume of PCM tracks. Other Sony players may as well.

However, all he needs to do is boost his volume control like sdurani says. I don't understand the problem Blu has with that.
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post #118 of 189 Old 12-30-2007, 07:30 AM
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As stated by tbrunet, I believe there is a confusion between dynamic range and compression used to limit it, and compression of data by one of the audio codecs as a means of efficient storage.

When referring to dynamic range, the difference between the softest and loudest sounds on a soundtrack, compression is a scheme that reduces this range. Dynamic compression is used in radio broadcasts heavily, so that no parts of the music OR COMMERCIALS are drowned out by driving noises. Dynamic compression is also used in home theater/audio for late-night listening: you can hear the dialog, but the explosion won't wake the household because it is not as much louder as it should have been. Dynamic compression therefore can limit the "punch" of a soundtrack.

However, dynamic compression can also make audio sound "louder", since we typically tend to adjust things so that the loudest sounds hit a pre-chosen "ceiling" in our listening environment (or our equipment). Then, dialog, etc. will play back louder than in a unlimited dynamic range presentation.

Compression, as used in Dolby and DTS, is simply a means of storing a music file so that it doesn't take up as much space on a disc. It can also use a lower data rate (megabits per second) during playback. This "compression" of the track for storage HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DYNAMIC RANGE COMPRESSION AS DESCRIBED ABOVE. When implemented correctly, there is minimal to no effect on the playback of the soundtrack. If the engineers choose to alter the natural dynamic range of a recording, that is a choice that is not dictated by the codec.

It's important when having discussions that we set our terminology clearly, so that we can hopefully avoid confusion such as this.

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post #119 of 189 Old 01-01-2008, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by hdblu View Post

Pcm

PCM what, HD Blu?
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post #120 of 189 Old 01-02-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Some people in this thread are really confusing others by arguing semantics.



Some receivers boost the "LFE" channel on LPCM tracks, or include the option to do so. I think Sony confused some A/V receiver vendors by applying this boost in the PS3 (the most popular Blu-ray player). Many players do not implement this boost -- they rely on the receiver to do so. This is clearly evident in A/B playback of a LPCM title from a Panasonic DMP-BD30 and Sony PS3 on my Denon receiver.

Should this boost be done in the player or the receiver though.

People with the bd30 (check out that thread) -- are complaining that that blu-ray player has a low level of LFE on PCM tracks.

But should that be a firmware upgrade in the bd30 player or on the Onkyo receiver, which apparently doesn't boost PCM LFE.

See this post in the bd30 thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12643000
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