DTS Master Audio...Uncompressed PCM...and a Whole Bunch of Headaches... - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 189 Old 02-24-2008, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
 
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seems like this thread has been dead for about a month and i'd hate to revive anyone's obsessions (blue),

Oh come on...that's not really fair...you're admitting below here that you don't think this to be an "abnormal anamoly" and then you call the thread an "obssession"? Come on...

but i am experiencing the same exact phenomenon as blue.

...was a matter of time because I KNOW I was not imagining this volume drop...

my set up is as follows: ps3 (40gb version) through HDMI to Onkyo 705 through HDMI to sony Bravia XBR LCD.

Just like my setup from my Panny 10A to my Onkyo 605 to my Sony SXRD...

i just got the ps3 last night and hooked up it, went through the firmware update through my wireless lan and looked to play the BD version of spiderman 3 which came with the ps3. when dynamically changing the audio output stream from bitstream to LPCM, the loudness dropped significantly. in fact, i usually listen to sources at around -30db and when i switched to LPCM, i had to crank up the volume to around -17b to get to equivalent levels and quite frankly it didn't sound significantly better. the DD 5.1 that comes with the BD disc jst adds more color and 'oomph' (no other way to put it). after reading this entire thread to no apparent definitive conclusion, i have to acknowledge that this may be an onkyo issue since i don't have the panny HW that blue has. i recall someone with an 805 indicating that he experiences sound loss using LPCM only 4db lower than corresponding DD 5.1 or DTS. I would be curious to know if other onkyo owners could respond with their experiences and workarounds. i also need to try out other BD discs to make sure Spidey 3 isn't a fluke. thanks,

I dont think Spidey 3 is a fluke disc, its just that somethings wrong with the way these Onkyos process the LPCM tracks with missing LFE and other abnormalities; it was explained to me -- because I am getting the EXACT same phenomenon as you whereby when I play BITSTREAMED material they sound MUCH MUCH better than PCM'ed tracks -- that when a DOLBY TRUEHD track is on a disc, there is also a "running parallel" Dolby Digital mix alongside it...so, if you select the TrueHD track from Spidey's menu, and you have your player set to output TrueHD in BITSTREAM, and your player doesn't output TrueHD in BITSTREAM, then the secondary Dolby Digital track is called upon to play instead...this is what happens on my Panny 10A, and no matter what, EVERY TIME I PLAY A DOLBY DIGITAL TRACK instead of an UNCOMPRESSED or PCM VERSION OF A TRUEHD TRACK, the volume output goes up tremendously with more "punch" as compared to the PCM/uncompressed mix...I'm experiencing the EXACT same thing as you.
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post #182 of 189 Old 02-25-2008, 11:53 PM
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i realized that i didn't calibrate the audio settings in the ps3 main menu. since i have completely digital connections via HDMI in my system, the ps3 automatically recognizes this and allows for all the sound formats to be utilized given a particular source. foolish me, in my haste to get started with the ps3, i selected the sound formats manually and therefore limited the selections artificially.

now when i switch between LPCM and DD 5.1 with spidey 3, i notice hardly any volume differences at all. previously, while listening to LPCM, i had to increase my master volume level by almost 13db to get similar SPLs as DD 5.1, but even then, the sound quality seemed poorer (i now realize that it was). there is still more 'push', particularly in major action scenes, in DD 5.1 but it is correspondingly 'grainier' relative to LPCM, which has a clarity that my ears dance to! it really is a thing of beauty. a prior poster indicated that his onkyo 805 had ~4db lower volume utilizing LPCM vs. DD. my aural judgement tells me it's ~2db in my setup.

blue, like your AVR, my MULTICHANNEL light goes on when LPCM is activated. since we also have all digital connections via HDMI and have very similar AVRs from the same company, i am beginning to think that maybe the issue is with your Panny A10. the only way to test this out is to borrow a friend's ps3 and see whether the issue relieves itself or not. i hope this helps and best of luck.
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post #183 of 189 Old 02-26-2008, 07:32 AM
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post #184 of 189 Old 02-26-2008, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yohji1 View Post

i realized that i didn't calibrate the audio settings in the ps3 main menu. since i have completely digital connections via HDMI in my system, the ps3 automatically recognizes this and allows for all the sound formats to be utilized given a particular source. foolish me, in my haste to get started with the ps3, i selected the sound formats manually and therefore limited the selections artificially.

now when i switch between LPCM and DD 5.1 with spidey 3, i notice hardly any volume differences at all. previously, while listening to LPCM, i had to increase my master volume level by almost 13db to get similar SPLs as DD 5.1, but even then, the sound quality seemed poorer (i now realize that it was). there is still more 'push', particularly in major action scenes, in DD 5.1 but it is correspondingly 'grainier' relative to LPCM, which has a clarity that my ears dance to! it really is a thing of beauty. a prior poster indicated that his onkyo 805 had ~4db lower volume utilizing LPCM vs. DD. my aural judgement tells me it's ~2db in my setup.

blue, like your AVR, my MULTICHANNEL light goes on when LPCM is activated. since we also have all digital connections via HDMI and have very similar AVRs from the same company, i am beginning to think that maybe the issue is with your Panny A10. the only way to test this out is to borrow a friend's ps3 and see whether the issue relieves itself or not. i hope this helps and best of luck.

I unfortunately don't know anyone with a PS3 that I can borrow one from; but I'm not really clear on what you are describing in terms of how you "resolved" this LPCM/LFE/volume issue...can you explain a bit clearer? I am connected digitally via HDMI, so are you saying you needed to make settings at your PS3 to change the sound? What would I have to change at my 10A then?
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post #185 of 189 Old 02-26-2008, 03:39 PM
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I unfortunately don't know anyone with a PS3 that I can borrow one from; but I'm not really clear on what you are describing in terms of how you "resolved" this LPCM/LFE/volume issue...can you explain a bit clearer? I am connected digitally via HDMI, so are you saying you needed to make settings at your PS3 to change the sound? What would I have to change at my 10A then?

this is correct. i had to go into my ps3's main menu settings and have the ps3 automatically choose all the sound formats that my system (AVR, HDMI connections, TV, etc.) can feasibly handle. i didn't change any settings on my AVR; i simply went into the ps3 audio settings and selected 'Auto' (vs. Manual) and the ps3 recognized that all the sounds formats were available for use in my system. i don't know which format it was that resolved the sound issue. however, when i hit Display (SELECT on the PS3 controller) while watching the BD disc, it shows the sound format as being LPCM 5.1 48kHz and the bitrate information (about 4-5Mbps).

i'm not at all familiar with your BD hardware, but i would suggest methodically going through various combinations of settings in order to see whether it works. also, is it possible that a setting in your AVR is perhaps contributing to the problem? you know that onkyo came out with a firmware update for the 605, specifically related to decoding of DD, DTS, TrueHD, and DTS-MA. it's only for the original production models of the 605, but yours may be eligible and if so, could be the source of your issue. best of luck.

http://www.onkyousa.com/605firmware_replace.cfm
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post #186 of 189 Old 02-26-2008, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
 
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this is correct. i had to go into my ps3's main menu settings and have the ps3 automatically choose all the sound formats that my system (AVR, HDMI connections, TV, etc.) can feasibly handle. i didn't change any settings on my AVR; i simply went into the ps3 audio settings and selected 'Auto' (vs. Manual) and the ps3 recognized that all the sounds formats were available for use in my system. i don't know which format it was that resolved the sound issue. however, when i hit Display (SELECT on the PS3 controller) while watching the BD disc, it shows the sound format as being LPCM 5.1 48kHz and the bitrate information (about 4-5Mbps).

Well, there is no such settings algorithm on the 10A; you simply select Speaker Settings (multichannel or 2 channel), then there are all kinds of settings for Digital Audio Output to select the codecs and either bitstream or PCM their transfer, plus HDMI resolution output....as far as I know, EVERYTHING from my 10A is set right to pass these PCM tracks to my 605.

i'm not at all familiar with your BD hardware, but i would suggest methodically going through various combinations of settings in order to see whether it works.

It has already been suggested in the 10A Settings thread that there is something wrong with this Panny and the way it "processes" LFE and other characteristics of a track, plus the volume discrepencies as well...as I had said above, I have gone through just about every setting there is on the player, and the PCM tracks pass as best they can.

also, is it possible that a setting in your AVR is perhaps contributing to the problem?

Well, not a SETTING per se, as the receiver is calibrated and set perfectly right, but it had been suggested that these Onkyos may not be "processing" these PCM signals "correctly"...

you know that onkyo came out with a firmware update for the 605, specifically related to decoding of DD, DTS, TrueHD, and DTS-MA. it's only for the original production models of the 605, but yours may be eligible and if so, could be the source of your issue. best of luck.

Yes, indeed I did know that, but like you said, these were for the original run of the models, and I got mine just last November, which was certainly not the first run for these units...at any rate, I haven't been able to pinpoint if the Onkyo is to blame for these issues because I do not have any equipment connected to it which BITSTREAMS the high resolution codecs so the receiver can't process or decode them, nor do their corresponding logos illuminate on the front of the receiver....so there's no way for me to know if I got one of the units that have the bug which stops these receivers from decoding the new formats....
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post #187 of 189 Old 02-27-2008, 12:05 AM
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Quote:


Well, not a SETTING per se, as the receiver is calibrated and set perfectly right, but it had been suggested that these Onkyos may not be "processing" these PCM signals "correctly".

By whom? Onkyos doing PCM just fine. Your player definitelly have the -5db LFE "bug", on the BD-30 it was just fixed with a FW update.
There is no definitive answer to if the BD10A will get this fix as well.

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post #188 of 189 Old 02-27-2008, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blu Camry SE View Post

this is correct. i had to go into my ps3's main menu settings and have the ps3 automatically choose all the sound formats that my system (AVR, HDMI connections, TV, etc.) can feasibly handle. i didn't change any settings on my AVR; i simply went into the ps3 audio settings and selected 'Auto' (vs. Manual) and the ps3 recognized that all the sounds formats were available for use in my system. i don't know which format it was that resolved the sound issue. however, when i hit Display (SELECT on the PS3 controller) while watching the BD disc, it shows the sound format as being LPCM 5.1 48kHz and the bitrate information (about 4-5Mbps).

Well, there is no such settings algorithm on the 10A; you simply select Speaker Settings (multichannel or 2 channel), then there are all kinds of settings for Digital Audio Output to select the codecs and either bitstream or PCM their transfer, plus HDMI resolution output....as far as I know, EVERYTHING from my 10A is set right to pass these PCM tracks to my 605.

i'm not at all familiar with your BD hardware, but i would suggest methodically going through various combinations of settings in order to see whether it works.

It has already been suggested in the 10A Settings thread that there is something wrong with this Panny and the way it "processes" LFE and other characteristics of a track, plus the volume discrepencies as well...as I had said above, I have gone through just about every setting there is on the player, and the PCM tracks pass as best they can.

also, is it possible that a setting in your AVR is perhaps contributing to the problem?

Well, not a SETTING per se, as the receiver is calibrated and set perfectly right, but it had been suggested that these Onkyos may not be "processing" these PCM signals "correctly"...

you know that onkyo came out with a firmware update for the 605, specifically related to decoding of DD, DTS, TrueHD, and DTS-MA. it's only for the original production models of the 605, but yours may be eligible and if so, could be the source of your issue. best of luck.

Yes, indeed I did know that, but like you said, these were for the original run of the models, and I got mine just last November, which was certainly not the first run for these units...at any rate, I haven't been able to pinpoint if the Onkyo is to blame for these issues because I do not have any equipment connected to it which BITSTREAMS the high resolution codecs so the receiver can't process or decode them, nor do their corresponding logos illuminate on the front of the receiver....so there's no way for me to know if I got one of the units that have the bug which stops these receivers from decoding the new formats....

Blue, Have you tried using the BD10A's multi-channel analog output with your Onkyo? Does it have multi-channel analog inputs? I get fantastic sound with an older Pioneer A/V receiver using MC analog connections. My audio settings are as follows: PCM down conversion off, BD-Video Function Sound off and all four outputs set to PCM. My BD10A is connected directly to my 1080p TV via HDMI with the resolution set to 1080p. The HDMI audio output is, of course, set to off. Before I got my BD10A, I had read about the decrease in LFE output, hence, I compensated in the 10A's multi-channel speaker settings. Specifically, I set the front, center and surround speakers in my 5.1 setup to -6db from the default of 0db. This essentially boosted the sub woofer 6db. I also ended up boosting the SW an additional 4db on the A/V receiver but now I think I have a little too much bass. My A/V receiver doesn't have HDMI connections so I can't go that route but I get amazing sound via analog. Also, I like connecting the TV directly to the output devices (in my case, blu-ray player and FIOS set-top box). This eliminates any possible degradation or interference in the signal from going through an A/V receiver.

Roger
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post #189 of 189 Old 02-27-2008, 11:19 AM
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Happy to have stumbled upon this thread.. and i think i might be able to shed some light on the difference in "loudness" between PCM and Bitstreamed audio. It's the receiver.

I recently went from an Onkyo 674 to an Onkyo 805 after my 674 released the magic white smoke.

With my 674 there was a NOTICEABLE difference between the loudness when going from a Bitstreamed DD track ( or any other audio source for that matter) to the PCM 5.1 or Tru HD Track which was being sent via PCM. ( I have a PS3 ) The LFE channel also felt muted in the PCM track.

With my 805, i hear VERY little difference in loudness between PCM and Bitstreamed audio (and any other audio source). The fullness of the PCM track is absolutely there, its just the sound level is correctly interpreted somewhere? I have NO idea why this is, but my ears do not lie.

I have set up my system with an DVE disc and a Radio Shack SPL meter along with using the Audessy setup built into my reciever but more or less, just for the distances. The decible meter proved the Audessy to be off by about 2 or 3 db.

I chalked it up to being something different in the recievers. Keep in mind sound is a very subjective thing, but to me, the 674 lacked the punch in LFE as well as loudness when using PCM. DD loudness levels were more on par with the loudness of a DD track or cable TV volume.

You are most definately not imagining things, but i think your culprit is your AVR. Still.. loudness levels having to be adjusted hardly justify buying a new receiver.

Just thought i'd toss in my $0.02 in.
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