OFFICIAL "HELP ME CHOOSE A PLAYER" THREAD: Can't decide? Start HERE. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 06:17 AM
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I posted about this over the weekend but got no response and it's been driving me crazy. The sound output is too low with my PS3. I have to turn the volume to almost reference level to hear normal dialog. This same volume level is way too loud when I use my Toshiba XA2, Oppo 970 and my MP3 player so I know it can't be amp or speaker issue. The PS3 is only few days old. I went through the settings but found nothing for audio level setting. Anyone have a suggestion please? Should I return the PS3 and wait for the BD50?

I want to hear opinions from people who don't have a dog in the fight.
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post #632 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex solomon View Post

I posted about this over the weekend but got no response and it's been driving me crazy. The sound output is too low with my PS3. I have to turn the volume to almost reference level to hear normal dialog. This same volume level is way too loud when I use my Toshiba XA2, Oppo 970 and my MP3 player so I know it can't be amp or speaker issue. The PS3 is only few days old. I went through the settings but found nothing for audio level setting. Anyone have a suggestion please? Should I return the PS3 and wait for the BD50?

While playing a movie press the options button (triangle) and move to the speaker icon. You can then adjust the volumn to one of 5 steps.. -2,-1,0,1,2 I think this is sticky so if you are trying to level match to the XA2 I think it will remember the setting.

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post #633 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 07:39 AM
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I am setting up a home theater with a Pioneer PDP-5010 50" Plasma, Definitive Pionner Vsx92 Receiver, Mythos 8 for Left, Right, Center Speakers, Supercube 2 sub, Speakercraft AImEights Threes for Rear Speakers,

I would like to get the PS3 but from what I understand I will be sacraficing sound quality compared to BD-30 (which I have in my kitchen) and BD 50 when it comes out. Is this correct. Since I am spending a good amount of money on my sound system I would like to get the most out of it. Or am I being over technical. (I am not technical at all, still learning)

I like the idea of PS3 for games which I will occasionally play, but I can also get Xbox 360 and standalone Blue ray (of course it would cost more)

I will be using most likely the harmony one which the PS3 does not work with without a adapter from Nykos (no big deal to purchase).

Please help as I have not an audio expert. Thanks.
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post #634 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:02 AM
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seriously... you've started 3 threads in the last 3 days asking this same question.....

just look here ------> The real Official "Help a guy pick a Blu-Ray player" thread


or here------> BD Player Audio Support Comparison
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post #635 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jzoz01 View Post

seriously... you've started 3 threads in the last 3 days asking this same question.....

just look here ------> The real Official "Help a guy pick a Blu-Ray player" thread


or here------> BD Player Audio Support Comparison

This is true cause I still can't decide based on the lack of information on the audio side. Seems PS3 fans do not take into consideration Audio. Thanks for the reminder. Ill reread those posts. Maybe I missed something.
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post #636 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:13 AM
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you have a panny 30 in your kitchen..??????


if so why the ps3 then....


i am lost here...
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post #637 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:20 AM
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The aspects to consider for the audio differences between using a Panasonic BD30 or BD50 versus a PS3 with your setup are:

1. Due to hardware limitations the PS3 cannot bitstream out the advanced lossless Dolby and DTS audio formats.

2. However the PS3 can internally decode the lossless Dolby audio (Dolby TrueHD) and output it to your AV Receiver via Linear PCM over the HDMI. Support for internal decoding of the DTS lossless audio (DTS HD-MA) is expected to be added via a firmware update to the PS3 in a few months. Thus with the PS3 your AV Receiver's decoding for the advanced audio formats would not be used as the decoding would have already have been performed withing the PS3.

3. In contrast the BD30 only bitstreams these advanced audio formats to your AV receiver where the decoding is performed. The BD50 allows either option, decoding within the BD player and output via LPCM, or bitream output.

4. Now the bottom line on which sounds better, having the decoding done within the BD player or within the AVR. If the docoder is correctly implemented (either within the BD player or the receiver) exactly the same PCM bit pattern will be produced. Therefore any difference in audio quality should not be a result of any difference in the decoded bit string. Rather it comes down primarily to a factor that can make small differences in the audio. Specifially, it is generally accepted that jitter (small timing errors in the spacing between digital bits) in the bit string being fed into the receiver's Digital-to-Analog Converter (i.e., DAC) can, if large enough, impact the audio quality of the analog output of the DAC. In the case of encoded audio (Dolby or DTS) being sent via bitstream to your receiver the jitter introduced over the HDMI between the BD player and the receiver is not as important since the receiver must have an internal decoder with its own timing source that will generate the bit positions of the decoded digital bit stream. Thus in this case the small timing errors between the BD player and the receiver won't directly result in equalivant jitter on the data stream going to the receiver's DAC. Now considering the alternative case where the Dolby and DTS decoding is being done within the BD player, any jitter introduced on the bit stream going over the HDMI interface to the AV receiver will be directly passed onto the input of the receiver's DAC unless the AV receiver includes internal data buffering and re-clocking of the data stream. Although such a de-jitter feature would be quite easy to implement, I'm not aware if any manufacturers that actually do it. Thus in theory passing an undecoded bit stream to the AV receiver from the BD player could result in slightly better sound quality. However, with your specific setup you may, or may not, be able to actually hear a difference.

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post #638 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:23 AM
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I hate to beat a dead horse...but I am housing the following and need to decide on the proper blue ray. (Yes I rad all the threads and I know it comes down to Bd-30 BD 50 PS3)

Pioneer pdp 5010 plasma (50")
Pionneer VSx92 Receiver
Mythos 8's for l,r & c
Supercube II
SpeakerCraft Aimeights Three

I know PS3 lacks certain decoding of sound, but since my receiver can do all types will PS3 bring out the best in my system or does Bd-30 or 50 make more sense.

Will I hear a difference between PS3 or bd-30/50 when all said in done with "my" system. Gaming is secondary but would be nice.
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post #639 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The aspects to consider for the audio differences between using a Panasonic BD30 or BD50 versus a PS3 with your setup are:

1. Due to hardware limitations the PS3 cannot bitstream out the advanced lossless Dolby and DTS audio formats.

2. However the PS3 can internally decode the lossless Dolby audio (Dolby TrueHD) and output it to your AV Receiver via Linear PCM. Support for internal decoding of the DTS lossless audio (DTS HD-MA) is expected to be added via a firmware update to the PS3 in a few months. This with the PS3 your AV Receiver's decodes for the advanced audio formats would not be used as the decoded would have already have been performed with the PS3.

3. In contrast the BD30 only bitstreams these advanced audio formats to you AV receiver where the decoding is performed. The BD50 allows either option, decoding within the BD player and output via LPCM, or bitream output.

4. Now the bottom line on which sounds better, having the decoding done within the BD player or within the AVR. If the docoder is correctly implemented (either within the BD player or the receiver) exactly the same PCM bit pattern will be produced. Therefore any difference in audio quality should not be a result of any difference in the decoded bit string. Rather is comes down primarily to a factor that can make small differences in the audio. Specifially, it is generally accepted that jitter (small timing errors in the spacing between digital bits) in the bit string being fed into the receiver's Digital-to-Analog Converter (i.e., DAC) will impact the audio quality of the analog output of the DAC. In the case of encoded audio (Dolby or DTS) being set bitstream to your receiver the jitter introduced over the HDMI between the BD player and the receiver is not as important since the receiver must have an internal decoder with timing source that will generate the bit positions of the decoded digital bit stream. This small timing errors between the BD player and the receiver won't directly result in jitter on the data stream going to the receiver's DAC. Now considering the alternative case where the Dolby and DTS decoding is being done within the BD player, any jitter introduced on the bit streaming going over the HDMI interface to the AV receiver will be directly passed onto the input of the DAC unless the AV receiver includes internal data buffering and re-clocking of the data stream. Although is de-jitter feature would be quite easy to implement, I'm not aware if any manufacturers that actually do it. Thus in theory passing bit stream to the AV receiver from the BD player could result in slightly better sound quality. With you specific setup you may, or may not, be able to hear a difference.

So, are we saying bd 30 would sound fine with my current receiver cause my receiver will decode? Bd 50 does the decoding so it will sound fine also and in theory maybe better? and PS3 eventually will be upgraded as well to do the decoding so this will be in line with the Bd-50.

So all three are winners in my case? Bd 50 and PS3 being the best choice in theory? If PS3 gets upgraded.
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post #640 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fit2Run View Post

I am setting up a home theater with a Pioneer PDP-5010 50" Plasma, Definitive Pionner Vsx92 Receiver, Mythos 8 for Left, Right, Center Speakers, Supercube 2 sub, Speakercraft AImEights Threes for Rear Speakers,

I would like to get the PS3 but from what I understand I will be sacraficing sound quality compared to BD-30 (which I have in my kitchen) and BD 50 when it comes out. Is this correct. Since I am spending a good amount of money on my sound system I would like to get the most out of it. Or am I being over technical. (I am not technical at all, still learning)

I like the idea of PS3 for games which I will occasionally play, but I can also get Xbox 360 and standalone Blue ray (of course it would cost more)

I will be using most likely the harmony one which the PS3 does not work with without a adapter from Nykos (no big deal to purchase).

Please help as I have not an audio expert. Thanks.

With the receiver you own you would benefit from a blu-ray player that sends a signal bitstream to your receiver. Don't hold your breath about the DTS Master firmware update for the PS3. Your receiver already has that decoder built in.

Panasonic TC-P50ST60 plasma HD television, Onkyo TX-SR805 and PIONEER ELITE VSX-47TX receivers, Klipsch RB-75(2 pair) and RB-61 bookshelf speakers, Klipsch RSW-10, RSW-12(2), Velodyne HGS-12, HGS-18 subwoofers, OPPO BDP-103, PS3 80G, PIONEER DV-525 dvd player, Klipsch RS-42 surrounds, Klipsch RC-52 center channel
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post #641 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by kemiza View Post

With the receiver you own you would benefit from a blu-ray player that sends a signal bitstream to your receiver. Don't hold your breath about the DTS Master firmware update for the PS3. Your receiver already has that decoder built in.

So since my receiver already has that decoder built in does it matter what blue ray I get for sound?
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post #642 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 09:29 AM
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fit2run, at present, the PS3 will not give you lossless dts-MA tracks. (There's no guarantee that will ever happen.) On discs where dts-MA is the only lossless option (all Fox titles, for example), you will be limited to the DTS core, which is still considerably better than DTS. But, it's not lossless. The difference should be discernable on your equipment. But, and this is a very big but, only you can decide whether that improvement matters. With uncompressed PCM and TrueHD, the PS3 will give you the same quality as the other players you are considering. If you have a decent AV shop in your area, see if you can set up a comparison of dts-MA and DTS core on equipment similar to yours.
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post #643 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

fit2run, at present, the PS3 will not give you lossless dts-MA tracks. (There's no guarantee that will ever happen.) On discs where dts-MA is the only lossless option (all Fox titles, for example), you will be limited to the DTS core, which is still considerably better than DTS. But, it's not lossless. The difference should be discernable on your equipment. But, and this is a very big but, only you can decide whether that improvement matters. With uncompressed PCM and TrueHD, the PS3 will give you the same quality as the other players you are considering. If you have a decent AV shop in your area, see if you can set up a comparison of dts-MA and DTS core on equipment similar to yours.

Thanks for the reply.
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post #644 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fit2Run View Post

So since my receiver already has that decoder built in does it matter what blue ray I get for sound?


I could be wrong about this, but I think it could matter when dealing with extras such as PIP. I've read on here numerous times that if you're big on extras, get a player with internal decoding.
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post #645 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 09:58 AM
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sony350 will bitstream all and will be upgradable to spec 2.0.
extras w/in PIP are not in the lossless codecs, so if bitstream to AVR in Lossless, you will not hear sound from the PIP, you'll have to listen to movie in the lossy core.
At least that's how i understand it.
Fit, how about this question... do you want your receiver to read "Multichannel" or "TRUEHD"?
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post #646 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fit2Run View Post

This is true cause I still can't decide based on the lack of information on the audio side. Seems PS3 fans do not take into consideration Audio. Thanks for the reminder. Ill reread those posts. Maybe I missed something.

What problems?
I run my PS3 @ 1080p/24 with 7.1 uncompressed. Can't get better than that.(inluding bitstreamed trueHD audio since I can't hear a bit of difference)
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post #647 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rr330i View Post

sony350 will bitstream all and will be upgradable to spec 2.0.
extras w/in PIP are not in the lossless codecs, so if bitstream to AVR in Lossless, you will not hear sound from the PIP, you'll have to listen to movie in the lossy core.
At least that's how i understand it.
Fit, how about this question... do you want your receiver to read "Multichannel" or "TRUEHD"?

I could care less about PIP. what is Multichannel? and I prefer TrueHD. I have no idea? All I know is when I buy blue movies I want to be able to hear the most out of the DVD as I can.
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post #648 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

What problems?
I run my PS3 @ 1080p/24 with 7.1 uncompressed. Can't get better than that.(inluding bitstreamed trueHD audio since I can't hear a bit of difference)

What receiver you running. ANd from what I Know PS3 cant send bitstream. or can it as long as it is uncompressed?
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post #649 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:28 AM
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You seem to be confused about internal decoding vs bitstream.

Internal Decoding - audio is decoded in the player. It is sent as LPCM to any HDMI AVR.

Bitstream - audio is sent as raw data to AVR. AVR does the decoding. AVR must be HDMI v1.3.

Your AVR is HDMI v1.3. It can decode all used codecs (DD, DTS, DT-HD, DTS-HD:MA, TrueHD, DD+).

All you need for perfect audio is a player that can bitstream. Since you spent good money on the AVR you might as well put it to good use. The DMP-BD30 can't decode anything (except DD & DTS). It can however bitstream all the codec to your AVR (which can decode them).


The DMP-BD50 or PS3 will not offer any "improved" audio. At best they would be equal to DMP-BD30. The DMP-BD50 adds internal decoding (for people who aren't as lucky to own a top of line HDMI v1.3 AVR) but you won't be using that. So from audio standpoint it is identical to DMP-BD30.

As another poster stated LPCM is subject to jitter. It may be slight or non existent but since you ALREADY HAVE an HDMI v1.3 why take the chance. Bitstream allows the AVR to use it's internal clock for decoding. Once again the DMP-BD30 or any player that can bitstream avoids the whole issue. You paid serious $$$ for an HDMI v1.3 AVR why not use it to it's full potential?

The PS3 "may" gain DTS-HD:MA "soon" but it maybe longer than people are guessing. If Sony needs to drop the price of PS3 this fall (because Wii & 360 drop in price) the PS3 could be substantially the lowest priced BD player again. Adding DTS-HD:MA support would only make the problem worse. Nobody really knows it or when the PS3 gains DTS-HD:MA support.
The DMP-BD30 does everything you need for audio standpoint. Why get PS3? The DMP-BD50 doesn't improve audio so why wait and pay more for same performance?

Solution:
1) Buy a DMP-BD30
2) Set it to bitstream everything
3) Enjoy 100% of BD discs in highest possible audio.

One small caveat: The DMP-BD30 doesn't support BD-Live. This is downloading content from internet. IMHO BD-Live is not really that great of a feature and I haven't seen any BD-Live content that makes me change my mind yet. If this is something you care about the DMP-BD50 would be better option.
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post #650 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:29 AM
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My pleasure. The only other thing I can add is about my personal experience. I am not an audiophile, but I appreciate good sound. I prefer SACD and DVD-Audio to redbook CD and legacy DTS 5.1, for example. I sat on the HD media sidelines until HD DVD players dropped below $200. I happened to hear a TrueHD track transcoded to DD at 640kbps on a friend's budget theater system and the improvement from DD at the usual 448kbps was remarkable. My receiver does not have HDMI and I need a player with 5.1 analog outs to get lossless audio, which was part of the reason I wasn't jumping into the HD DVD/Blu-ray war. But, with player prices down to a very affordable level and the audio quality of the DD transcode, I went ahead and bought an HD-A3. TrueHD sounds cleaner and more detailed to me. But, I've never regretted the purchase, even without losssless audio and HD DVD's demise. As for Blu-ray, I am waiting for the BD50 or Sony's S550. When a player costs $500 or more, I want the best audio it can provide.
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post #651 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

What problems?
I run my PS3 @ 1080p/24 with 7.1 uncompressed. Can't get better than that.(inluding bitstreamed trueHD audio since I can't hear a bit of difference)

PS3 can't bitstream TrueHD tracks.
What about tracks (Fox) that are ONLY DTS-HD:MA?
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post #652 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

You seem to be confused about internal decoding vs bitstream.

Internal Decoding - audio is decoded in the player. It is sent as LPCM to any HDMI AVR.

Bitstream - audio is sent as raw data to AVR. AVR does the decoding. AVR must be HDMI v1.3.

Your AVR is HDMI v1.3. It can decode all used codecs (DD, DTS, DT-HD, DTS-HD:MA, TrueHD, DD+).

All you need for perfect audio is a player that can bitstream. Since you spent good money on the AVR you might as well put it to good use. The DMP-BD30 can't decode anything (except DD & DTS). It can however bitstream all the codec to your AVR (which can decode them).


The DMP-BD50 or PS3 will not offer any "improved" audio. At best they would be equal to DMP-BD30. The DMP-BD50 adds internal decoding (for people who aren't as lucky to own a top of line HDMI v1.3 AVR) but you won't be using that. So from audio standpoint it is identical to DMP-BD30.

As another poster stated LPCM is subject to jitter. It may be slight or non existent but since you ALREADY HAVE an HDMI v1.3 why take the chance. Bitstream allows the AVR to use it's internal clock for decoding. Once again the DMP-BD30 or any player that can bitstream avoids the whole issue. You paid serious $$$ for an HDMI v1.3 AVR why not use it to it's full potential?

The PS3 "may" gain DTS-HD:MA "soon" but it maybe longer than people are guessing. If Sony needs to drop the price of PS3 this fall (because Wii & 360 drop in price) the PS3 could be substantially the lowest priced BD player again. Adding DTS-HD:MA support would only make the problem worse. Nobody really knows it or when the PS3 gains DTS-HD:MA support.
The DMP-BD30 does everything you need for audio standpoint. Why get PS3? The DMP-BD50 doesn't improve audio so why wait and pay more for same performance?

Solution:
1) Buy a DMP-BD30
2) Set it to bitstream everything
3) Enjoy 100% of BD discs in highest possible audio.

One small caveat: The DMP-BD30 doesn't support BD-Live. This is downloading content from internet. IMHO BD-Live is not really that great of a feature and I haven't seen any BD-Live content that makes me change my mind yet. If this is something you care about the DMP-BD50 would be better option.

You summed it up REAL well. MY decision now can be made with clarity. THANK SO MUCH.

Next question is then do I keep my XBOX 360 (no hdmi) and deal with it or do I drop a few $$$ and get 360 with HDMI. Or do I PS3 just for gaming. Im freakin' crazy.
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post #653 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

PS3 can't bitstream TrueHD tracks.
What about tracks (Fox) that are ONLY DTS-HD:MA?


Never said it could.
Fox has many issues. But do those discs have NO other options for audio? Could you not matrix 5.1 dolby?

Also, "perfect audio"? So you are saying it is clearly superior and that he will be able to hear the difference?
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post #654 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:44 AM
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The other thing is I Have BD-30 in my kitchen on a 40" LCD no surround sound. Should I just take that BD-30 and move it and buy PS3 for that room. Makes sense. But then I got to play PS3 in my Dining room. Bummer.
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post #655 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:54 AM
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you need a bluray in your kitchen on a 40" LCD w/ no surround?
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post #656 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Fit2Run View Post

I could care less about PIP. what is Multichannel? and I prefer TrueHD. I have no idea? All I know is when I buy blue movies I want to be able to hear the most out of the DVD as I can.

When the BD player sends audio via LPCM, your receiver will show Multichannel on its screen. When it sends the audio via Bitstream, the AVR will decode and show either TRUEHD, or DD plus, or DTS MA, or whatever is it doing, not just passing thru multichannel.
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post #657 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by rr330i View Post

you need a bluray in your kitchen on a 40" LCD w/ no surround?

I dont NEED anything of the sort. But I prefer it. My Kitchen is open to my dining room and the TV is above the fireplace on a full motion mount so I can watch it in the kitchen or Dining room. It is mainly used for my daughter to watch tv when she plays or eats.
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post #658 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 11:31 AM
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Take the bd-30 and put it in your HT or media room and see how you like it.
Dont buy anything till you can make that decision.
Is your daughter watching a good amount of BD in your kitchen? Will a regular DVD work there?
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post #659 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 11:37 AM
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Fox has many issues. But do those discs have NO other options for audio? Could you not matrix 5.1 dolby?

Most Fox releases have dts-MA as their only lossless option. Matrixing legacy DD 5.1 is hardly the same.

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Also, "perfect audio"? So you are saying it is clearly superior and that he will be able to hear the difference?

Yes, it is clearly better in the opinion of many. Each of us has to decide how much better and whether the improvement is worth it.
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post #660 of 17288 Old 03-17-2008, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rr330i View Post

Take the bd-30 and put it in your HT or media room and see how you like it.
Dont buy anything till you can make that decision.
Is your daughter watching a good amount of BD in your kitchen? Will a regular DVD work there?

My daughter is 3 1/2. Don't think she can tell the difference yet. The tv in the kitchen is mainly for casual watching and for her movies during the day. We will then move to the Home Media room at night (once it is installed 3 weeks). I can easily by just a regular DVD player in the meantime for $79.00 and be done with this whole charade. and wait it out to see if PS3 gets upgraded. Im just itching to play baseball THE SHOW. Im a kid at heart.

Thanks for the option.
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