OFFICIAL "HELP ME CHOOSE A PLAYER" THREAD: Can't decide? Start HERE. - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Pire View Post

Try the DD and DTS demo discs (HD-DVD). Great for testing hardware abilities. I think that is all that is available in the consumer arena at this time. I produce my own TrueHD 7.1 HD-DVD Audio discs, that is what I use mostly for testing. Waiting for my new BR burner to arrive then I can make those too and finally put the PS3 to the test.

To be clear here - are you talking about downmixing 7.1 to 5.1 on an HD DVD player, not a PS3?
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post #1082 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds54 View Post

Maybe I'm missing something here......
My current DVD player is connected with component video and optical audio, and has great 480P PQ and 5.1/DTS audio. Why wouldn't I want to just leave it as is for DVDs, (as opposed to buying an Oppo) and then also connect a new BD player with HDMI and analog audio? Assuming that I would even watch DVDs after getting BD, is the Oppo upscaling that significant?

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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

I think many would beg to differ with that statement. What's the problem with using analog for lossless audio?

BI, My assumption is that mds54 is talking L/R analog, and that his avr may not have 7.1(or 5.1)analog inputs, since he's using optical for his DVD.
What is the proper term for a 7.1analog vs L/R analog inputs?


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post #1083 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr330i View Post

BI, My assumption is that mds54 is talking L/R analog, and that his avr may not have 7.1(or 5.1)analog inputs, since he's using optical for his DVD.
What is the proper term for a 7.1analog vs L/R analog inputs?

L/R would normally be classified as two channel or stereo, which is a whole different animal than multichannel analog. He's using optical from a DVD player because there's nothing to be gained by decoding legacy DD and DTS in the player. He'd switch to multichannel analog for Blu-ray because that's the only way to get lossless audio if his AVR lacks HDMI. His AVR would have to be very old and/or cheap to be lacking multichannel analog inputs.
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post #1084 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 08:15 AM
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BI, thanks... and agreed w/ analog multichannel being the alternate to HDMI for lossless.


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post #1085 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rr330i View Post

BI, thanks... and agreed w/ analog multichannel being the alternate to HDMI for lossless.

Newb question, but can you guys expand on this? I do not keep up with the latest and greatest in audio, but my AVR does not have HDMI. It does have analog multichannel inputs however. So I can just use those w/ a BD player and get the same audio as w/ HDMI? Is it really that much better than DD or DTS for a 5.1 system?
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post #1086 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr330i View Post

BI, My assumption is that mds54 is talking L/R analog, and that his avr may not have 7.1(or 5.1)analog inputs, since he's using optical for his DVD.

Sorry about not being clear.....
My AVR (Yamaha RX-V800) has 6-channel 5.1 analog inputs which I plan to use for BD audio, since it does not have HDMI.
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post #1087 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhnie View Post

Newb question, but can you guys expand on this? I do not keep up with the latest and greatest in audio, but my AVR does not have HDMI. It does have analog multichannel inputs however. So I can just use those w/ a BD player and get the same audio as w/ HDMI? Is it really that much better than DD or DTS for a 5.1 system?

If you get a player that can decode the new formats and has analog outputs you will get the same as you would through HDMI.

As far as how much better it is, that all depends on your speakers and your ears.
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post #1088 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds54 View Post

Sorry about not being clear.....
My AVR (Yamaha RX-V800) has 6-channel 5.1 analog inputs which I plan to use for BD audio, since it does not have HDMI.

OK, so if i were you, i'd keep the current dvd player and add a BD.
Multichannel analog BD players:
The $700 panasonic bd50 & $500 S550 sony will both decode all formats and be 2.0. The $400 S350 sony will decode all but DTS-MA, and should be upgradable to 2.0. The $600 Pioneer 51FD will decode all, but will be 1.1.
I don't know much about the $2000 Denon, but that's because i haven't spent anytime reading about it, but it should do all you want.


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post #1089 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 11:43 AM
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Thanks for that, rr330i!
I agree with your recommendation. I'm currently waiting on the BD50 or S550....whichever comes out first!
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post #1090 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds54 View Post

I'm currently waiting on the BD50 or S550....whichever comes out first!

Oye... that's a whole nother thread.


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post #1091 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruhnie View Post

Newb question, but can you guys expand on this? I do not keep up with the latest and greatest in audio, but my AVR does not have HDMI. It does have analog multichannel inputs however. So I can just use those w/ a BD player and get the same audio as w/ HDMI? Is it really that much better than DD or DTS for a 5.1 system?

Decoding and conversion to analog in the player provides the same quality as sending digital over HDMI to a receiver for decoding. The big difference comes in the quality of the digital-analog converters (DACs). With digital over HDMI, you are using the receiver's DACs. With analog, you are using the player's DACs. The better DACs produce better sound.

Analog requires some additional set ups in the player. Bass management and speaker distances must be set in the player because those functions are done while the audio is still digital.

Your receiver must be able to provide a +10db (or +15db when using "small" speakers) boost for the LFE channel.

Most receivers cannot apply additional signal processing when using the analog inputs. If you like the sound of the "jazz club" or "stadium" DSP settings, you won't be able to use those modes.

Bottom line: analog can be a bit of a pain to set up, beginning with the six to eight cables you need to run. But, you only do the set up once and then it's no different than using digital.
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post #1092 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Decoding and conversion to analog in the player provides the same quality as sending digital over HDMI to a receiver for decoding. The big difference comes in the quality of the digital-analog converters (DACs). With digital over HDMI, you are using the receiver's DACs. With analog, you are using the player's DACs. The better DACs produce better sound.

Analog requires some additional set ups in the player. Bass management and speaker distances must be set in the player because those functions are done while the audio is still digital.

Your receiver must be able to provide a +10db (or +15db when using "small" speakers) boost for the LFE channel.

Most receivers cannot apply additional signal processing when using the analog inputs. If you like the sound of the "jazz club" or "stadium" DSP settings, you won't be able to use those modes.

Bottom line: analog can be a bit of a pain to set up, beginning with the six to eight cables you need to run. But, you only do the set up once and then it's no different than using digital.

Cool, thx for the reply. I guess I'll have to do some more research before I decide to buy a BD player on this. Right now I don't even have a sub, so not worried about the LFE channel atm. I can adjust the boost on any channel on my receiver though, so I'm guessing that would work for me (HK AVR35). I don't use any of the dsp settings really that I can think of, just the straight DD or DTS.
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post #1093 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 07:56 PM
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I have been perusing some of the posts in this thread and was just wondering if my Panasonic Plasma (600U) is capable of showing a true HD DVD picture in 1080p resolution. I know it handles the 1080i just fine but I am VERY new to this Blu-Ray stuff and wanted to be sure before laying out the 400-500 bucks.

...and, if it can, what would be a good choice for a newbie like myself? I have heard that the PS3 is actually a good option but I do not want to make a big mistake at this point and just buy something blind. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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post #1094 of 17004 Old 05-07-2008, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy Train View Post

I have been perusing some of the posts in this thread and was just wondering if my Panasonic Plasma (600U) is capable of showing a true HD DVD picture in 1080p resolution. I know it handles the 1080i just fine but I am VERY new to this Blu-Ray stuff and wanted to be sure before laying out the 400-500 bucks.

...and, if it can, what would be a good choice for a newbie like myself? I have heard that the PS3 is actually a good option but I do not want to make a big mistake at this point and just buy something blind. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Your TV will take whatever input you give it and scale according to its native resolution. A 600u sounds like a native 768p panel. If so, you'd likely send it 1080i from the player and let the TV rescale to 768p. Regardless of the particulars, if you like the picture you get from HD television stations, you'll be equallly happy with Blu-ray disc playback.

There isn't much difference in video among the players. With audio, there's a wide range and it's important to buy a player that matches up with your receiver's capabilities. All players and receivers will give you legacy Dolby Digital and DTS playback. But, if you want the improved audio quality of the new lossless formats, it gets more complicated.
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post #1095 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 10:06 AM
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If the BD-50 and S550 are going to be so similar why pay the extra $200? What am I missing?

Is there another thread that reviews the differences between the two?
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post #1096 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 11:17 AM
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Why would anyone buy anything but the PS3 when it comes to a blu-ray player?

From what I've seen all the players are priced in the same ballpark, and they all suck compared to the PS3.

I'm just wondering why someone would chose any blu-ray player over the PS3... ? There must be a good reason that I'm not thinking of...
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post #1097 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 11:20 AM
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It's a no-brainer for those of us without HDMI AVRs.....
Some of the new BD players have internal audio decoders for 5.1 analog connections.
The PS3 does not. That's a pretty good reason in my book!
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post #1098 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

There are two parts to this process - deinterlacing and scaling. The 480i source on the DVD needs to be turned into a progressive image to be viewed on a fixed pixel display and it needs to be scaled to the native resolution of your set. You can have the player or the set do both jobs or split it up between them, depending on which device does a better job with each task. However, some players won't output 480i, meaning you have to let them do the deinterlacing.

Since you already have an A2, whose scaling doesn't impress you, you can see whether you like the job done by your TV better. Switch the output of your A2 to 480p and see if the picture improves when using the scaler on your set. If the A2 has a 480i option, try that as well to see if the deinterlacing is better on the TV.

thanks for the info...I'll try having my Samsung DLP set do the scaling and see if it makes any difference...anyone know off hand how Samsung DLP HDTV sets do in this regard?...my HD-A2 only goes up to 1080i while my TV is 1080p so I'm assuming the TV would do a better job

"You can have the player or the set do both jobs or split it up between them"

how would I get the player and the TV to split the job?
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post #1099 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mds54 View Post

It's a no-brainer for those of us without HDMI AVRs.....
Some of the new BD players have internal audio decoders for 5.1 analog connections.
The PS3 does not. That's a pretty good reason in my book!

I see, so its an audio thing. Hmmm... Its just that we have all the blu-ray players at my work and they are insanely slow while the PS3 does everything insanely fast... so I just couldn't understand why anyone would put up with the horrible load times with the other players.
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post #1100 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 11:45 AM
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Newbie question on audio:

I have an HK receiver that does NOT support HDMI inputs. It does have 5.1 analog inputs, as well as coax & toslink inputs. From scanning through this thread, the toslink & coax inputs would be inferior to the 5.1 analog inputs? What if my setup is using Polk bookshelf sized speakers & I'm only running a 5.1 environment?
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post #1101 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 11:47 AM
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Strictly for watching movies, and currently owning neither....

Is there an advantage to getting a player over getting a PS3?
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post #1102 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 12:00 PM
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dafunkiestmonkey -- The only two informative threads on these players is --

Panasonic BD-50: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=970806
and
Sony S550: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1000180

Oops, I forgot this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=996843

Until the Owner's manuals become available online, we won't really know more than what is in those 2 threads (and a lot of that is speculation). Right now, neither manufacturer is even saying much on their web sites.

From what's been published, there doesn't seem to be much, if any, difference. It looks like the main differences will be in the BD-Live features, which aren't important to me. Also, the BD-50 is "supposed" to have only 5.1 channel analog outputs, vs S550's 7.1 channel - advantage Sony (see the chart on the first page of http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980672). Also, the BD-50 is supposed to have slightly better picture quality, but that's pure speculation right now.

Adrian7724 -- If you are just plugging the player into the HDMI port on your TV set, it doesn't make any difference (provided the TV set can decode PCM, LPCM/MPCM). For just video, you are right. However, to most of us, the Audio Processing capabilities makes a very big difference and that also depends on what the capabilities of our AVRs are. Most of us (like me) don't want to spend another $500 to $1500 for a new AVR to give us the lossless audio signals that are on the BD DVDs (audio is 50% of the HT experience).

Billbo1970 -- Yes! The PS3 only outputs 2-channel stereo out of it's digital optical output (and it has no analog audio outputs), and we would need an AVR with HDMI 1.3 inputs with PCM decoding capability. Lacking that, the PS3 has no advantages for those of us with, good to excellent, legacy (5.1/7.1 channel) audio gear in our Home Theaters.

For me, that means spending $1000 to $1500+ for a PS3 plus a new, quality, AVR. That's 2 to 3 times the cost of a BD-50 or a S550. Slower load times is a small trade-off.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #1103 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Bottom line: analog can be a bit of a pain to set up, beginning with the six to eight cables you need to run. But, you only do the set up once and then it's no different than using digital.

Hi Peter,

Unless of course if you want to go back and use your AVR/Preamp's post processing, say to regain 7.1 processing for listening to movies. Then you have to recalibrate your speakers for a S/PDIF connection.

Then, if you want to listen to 5.1 lossless, say for listening to music, you have to go back and recalibrate them again.

Only those fortunate folks who have AVRs/Preamps that redigitize the analog input can avoid this constant recalibration issue.

Larry



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post #1104 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 02:29 PM
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Larry,

I’m set up for 5.1, not 7.1, and my receiver cannot digitize the analog inputs for additional processing.

But, are you saying that switching between a digital S/PDIF input and 5.1 analog means you have to recalibrate? Wouldn’t the AVR remember the proper setup for each input?

I have always been curious about how EQ fits into the equation. I assume the equalization adjustments made in the AVR do not apply to the analog inputs. I can control channel levels on my Denon 2900 player. It does bass and time management for DVD-Audio and bass management for SACD. But, it has a fixed 80Hz crossover and no other EQ controls. The only adjustments I can make in the receiver for the analog inputs are channel levels and a variable LFE boost.

Our “theater” is in a great room. I’m sure it could be dialed in better and that room treatments would also help. But, with out current setup, it sounds lovely for TV, movies, and music (both stereo and multichannel). After doing the AVR setups for digital and the Denon 2900 setups for analog, I simply switch inputs on the receiver and make no other changes.

Peter
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post #1105 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billbo1970 View Post

Newbie question on audio:

I have an HK receiver that does NOT support HDMI inputs. It does have 5.1 analog inputs, as well as coax & toslink inputs. From scanning through this thread, the toslink & coax inputs would be inferior to the 5.1 analog inputs? What if my setup is using Polk bookshelf sized speakers & I'm only running a 5.1 environment?

"Inferior" is in the ears of the listener.

Over toslink, you are limited to legacy DD and DTS. But, those formats are usually encoded on Blu-ray at higher bit rates than DVD and many say they sound better as a result.

If you want lossless audio, your only choice with your receiver is getting a player that decodes TrueHD and dts-MA and has multichannel analog outputs. The PS3 does the decoding, but doesn't have analog outputs. That's why so many people with older receivers are waiting for upcoming players like the Panasonic BD50 and Sony S550.
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post #1106 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian7724 View Post

I see, so its an audio thing. Hmmm... Its just that we have all the blu-ray players at my work and they are insanely slow while the PS3 does everything insanely fast... so I just couldn't understand why anyone would put up with the horrible load times with the other players.

It's more than just an audio thing - there's also the issues of having to deal with the bluetooth remote instead of being able to use a nice Harmony remote that my wife can *finally* use without calling me, and also having to deal with a big, odd-shaped box in my cabinet that generates considerably more heat than a typical disc player. I'm on the sidelines waiting for a "normal" blu-ray player and enjoying my $100 A2 player because it acts & looks exactly like it should - a disc player with a better picture... Is that so much to ask???

If you think this post was dumb, you really should read my blog=>
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post #1107 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Larry,

I'm set up for 5.1, not 7.1, and my receiver cannot digitize the analog inputs for additional processing.

But, are you saying that switching between a digital S/PDIF input and 5.1 analog means you have to recalibrate? Wouldn't the AVR remember the proper setup for each input?

Hi Peter,

I obviously didn't think so until you posed the question, but now that you raise the question I'm not so certain.
I'll have to study my owner's manual again and make sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

I have always been curious about how EQ fits into the equation. I assume the equalization adjustments made in the AVR do not apply to the analog inputs. I can control channel levels on my Denon 2900 player. It does bass and time management for DVD-Audio and bass management for SACD. But, it has a fixed 80Hz crossover and no other EQ controls. The only adjustments I can make in the receiver for the analog inputs are channel levels and a variable LFE boost.

My processor is the Lexicon MC-8. It only has 5.1 and stereo and analog bypass, so no post-processing is done. (It doesn't have any equalization or room correction features anyway.) The Lexicon MC-12 redigitizes the analog inputs and can do all the post processing that it does via digital S/PDIF, including bass management, surround processing such as matrixed 7.1, and room correction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Our theater is in a great room. I'm sure it could be dialed in better and that room treatments would also help. But, with out current setup, it sounds lovely for TV, movies, and music (both stereo and multichannel). After doing the AVR setups for digital and the Denon 2900 setups for analog, I simply switch inputs on the receiver and make no other changes.

Peter

I've just started experimenting with my multichannel analog inputs using music HD DVDs played on my Toshiba HD-XA2. I'm sure I'm not setting it up correctly because so far a matrixed 7.1 via S/PDIF sounds better than 5.1 lossless over analog.

Thanks for your response, it looks like I have more homework to do.

Larry



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post #1108 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

But, are you saying that switching between a digital S/PDIF input and 5.1 analog means you have to recalibrate? Wouldn't the AVR remember the proper setup for each input?

Hi Peter,

As a followup to our conversation, the owner's manual didn't discuss remembering speaker levels for each input, so I consulted the folks at a Lexicon forum.

It turns out that the speaker level settings are global for all inputs, but it was suggested that setting the speaker levels on the player could be used to adjust the relative volumes to be about equal when switching from S/PDIF to analog and back so no changes would be need to the Lexicon speaker level settings.

Larry



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post #1109 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 06:16 PM
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Thanks a million for the information BIslander. One more thing, I have a JVC Home Theater system without anymore HDMI inputs available. I am still a bit confused on the whole sound thing as well. If I go with the PS3, should I scrap the JVC and get a better system to get true 5.1 sound?
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post #1110 of 17004 Old 05-08-2008, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitusTroy View Post

my HD-A2 only goes up to 1080i while my TV is 1080p so I'm assuming the TV would do a better job

With a 1080p source on the disk, you get the same image regardless of whether it is sent to the display as 1080i or 1080p. Your A2 will take the 1080p frame on the disk, split it into two identical 1080i fields, and send them to the TV where they are recombined into the original 1080p image. 1080i is only an issue if the original recording is interlaced because the two fields that make up the final frame are not identical when the image being recorded is in motion. Otherwise, 1080i and 1080p are the same.

Quote:
how would I get the player and the TV to split the job?

DVDs are 480i.

If you set the player to output at 480i, the TV will have to handle upscaling to your set's native resolution and the deinterlacing to produce a progressive image on your set.

If you set the player output to 480p, then the player is doing the deinterlacing and the TV will do the upscaling to its native resolution.

If you output 1080i, then the player is doing the upscaling and the TV will do the deinterlacing.

If the player can do 1080p, then it will be handling both jobs.
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