Pioneer Elite BDP-05FD & BDP-51FD merged threads - Page 79 - AVS Forum
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post #2341 of 4770 Old 06-22-2008, 10:49 PM
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BTW, we should be happy that a Pio rep reports on this forum instead of ignoring it completely like most CE company reps do.

Chris releases information when he can and when he has time. He has a few more things to do than just answer our sometimes redundant questions!

Some of our questions may not be answered until someone actually gets a working production model - remember these players won't be released for another month or so.
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post #2342 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

You aren't "regenerating" anything by upsampling as the information isn't present in the first place. BD has 8-bit color for the forseeable future. "regenerating" by upsampling to 12 bits would be akin to saying it's possible to create HD from SD by upconversion which obviously doesn't work either.

If the banding happens to be an artifact coming off the disc or a problem inherent at the display you'll likely still see it. If you were to find a way to somehow "mask" it then you'd probably compromise somewhere else i.e. resolution.

Sure you could "regenerate", or better word "re-render" it. If the video processor is powerful enough it could sample the banded area and re-render it with a more natural gradient. Of course, it could also be a simple filtering trick by a low powered video processor. We won't know until its out.

Re: DVD upconversion, look at the difference between a DVD upconverted with Reon to 1080p vs. a DVD upconverted to 1080p with a poor upconversion circuit. Massive difference, and the same will apply here. Color upconversion is possible, but it will require a relatively powerful video processing solution to do well; yes, it won't be as good as true 12-bit but that is not possible with BD anyway. As for compromising resolution, remember that in most cases banding is not detail but rather an artifact; therefore it is not something we should look to preserve, and in highly stylized movies that have banding on purpose like Tron you can simply disable the circuit.
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post #2343 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 12:17 AM
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I've got 3 Pioneer Elite products.
Took each one of them apart, piece by piece and searched every component, but to no avail. I just could not find any gumbily goop anywhere.

Now, how am I going to put all these parts back together...hmmm...
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post #2344 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 01:34 AM
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hahahaha
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post #2345 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 04:03 AM
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Any info on the analog audio output processing options yet Chris?
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post #2346 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post

Are you saying there's nothing new going from 8 bits to 12 bits? What other players do this?

I know for a fact my Panasonic BD30 is outputting 12 bit video; I'm fairly certain the PS3 does, as well.

The Pioneer is said to be the first unit to somehow utilize or upsample to Deep Color which is a separate process from going 8 to 12 bits.

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post #2347 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I know for a fact my Panasonic BD30 is outputting 12 bit video; I'm fairly certain the PS3 does, as well.

Yes, both the BD30 and PS3 output 12-bit video, as reported by my Denon 3808 receiver. How their 12-bit differs from Pioneer's 12-bit is a mystery to me.
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post #2348 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 09:48 AM
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possibly they may say they are outputting 12bit, and they COULD, if the source was 12bit (which it isn't). and then the Pio would be upscaling to 12bit, which would give it a better PQ.
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post #2349 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:06 AM
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outputting in 12 bit mode doesn't necessarily mean there are twelve unique bits of color information. the data is probably not upsampled.
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post #2350 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:19 AM
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Let me rephrase then: what the differences in 12-bit video between the Pioneer, the Panny and PS3 translates into in the real world is beyond me. By the way, does anyone know if my Mitsubishi WD-65833 is a 12-bit television?
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post #2351 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bferr1 View Post

Let me rephrase then: what the differences in 12-bit video between the Pioneer, the Panny and PS3 translates into in the real world is beyond me. By the way, does anyone know if my Mitsubishi WD-65833 is a 12-bit television?

Based on what we have heard from initial demonstrations of the technology, the Pioneer offers an option that actually attempts to improve picture quality by reducing banding through the use of the deep color feature. Instead of simply outputting in 12bit like the PS3 & Panasonics do, Pioneer's technology attempts to work on the picture and make banded gradients appear to have smoother transitions. The feature of course can be disabled, and we don't know how effective it is - but it may offer a solution to reduce or eliminate banding on select titles with banding artifacts. Its not as good as true 12bit color encoded on the disc, but Blu-ray is limited to 8bit encoding.

To draw a parallel between DVD upscaling & color upscaling, the PS3/Panasonic do the bare minimum to upscale 8bit > 12bit; think of these as more "basic" color upscalers. On the other hand, the Pioneer offers the option to do significantly more post processing in order to improve the image and eliminate or reduce banding; think of the Pioneer as a more "advanced" color upscaler. Again, we won't know how effective it is until we see it on real world material with a production model. On test patterns, though, it did wonders with reducing banding according to insiders.

Also, your particular TV does support the 12bit feature.
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post #2352 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:27 AM
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anyone know why BD is limited to 8-bit? you'd think all this hurrah about HD formats wouldn't immediately cripple it right out of the gate for the next 10 years.
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post #2353 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

anyone know why BD is limited to 8-bit? you'd think all this hurrah about HD formats wouldn't immediately cripple it right out of the gate for the next 10 years.

It boils down to compatibility. When BD was released HDMI 1.3 was not yet available and most TVs did not support 12bit per color; and, in order to take advantage of it you'd therefore need two completely seperate video encodes on every Blu-ray disc, an 8bit one for older TVs/players and a 12bit one for newer TVs, players. It would add confusion and compatibility headaches for less knowledgable consumers. And for the record, HD DVD had the same problem. Both are limited to 8bit per channel, meaning banding artifacts can be introduced when downconverting a master with 10bit/12bit per channel if dithering is not used. Warner seems to be most guilty of using less advanced master downconversion methods which sometimes introduce banding artifacts in some of their Blu-ray discs.

So, our best bet is for companies like Pioneer to come up with color upconversion techniques that can reduce/eliminate banding without losing other important picture detail by sampling and re-rendering the banded gradients in each frame. This is most definitely possible, but it would require a relatively powerful video processor. We'll see if Pioneer got off to a good start with their implementation when this player is released with its optional color upconversion feature.
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post #2354 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I know for a fact my Panasonic BD30 is outputting 12 bit video; I'm fairly certain the PS3 does, as well.

The Pioneer is said to be the first unit to somehow utilize or upsample to Deep Color which is a separate process from going 8 to 12 bits.

Any chance you guys could be talking about the color depth that is available on the newer high def camcorders? I think Sony's moniker is x.v. Color. That's the only way I know of to take advantage of the capability in the player and the TV (home movies). But you have to burn it to a Blu-ray structured disc first or watch it straight from the camcorder.

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post #2355 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:47 AM
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Folks,

I've been following this thread for a while, but just recently started paying closer attention; I've just gotten a new TV and I'm turning my research focus to a blu-ray player, with a target purchase date of November or December.

I'm leaning towards purchasing one of these new Pio players (or perhaps waiting for the 2.0, depending on what other upgrades it has and the cost), and I have a few questions that I don't recall being asked or answered. Any help--including speculation or a "we don't know yet"--would be appreciated

1. I understand that the PQLS (sp?) anti-jitter feature is available only when used in combination with Pio Elite AVRs. But is this a proprietary technology? Or is it some sort of open source or industry standard we might see in other AVRs in the future?

2. The deep color feature intrigues me, but I won't be sold until people can actually play around with it--and preferably not until I can see it myself. But am I right in my understanding that there is no type of disc now conceived of (and therefore that will ever be read by these players) that actually has encoded deep color? In other words, am I correct that this feature is PURELY for up-conversion (or however you want to describe it) and not a future-proofing feature for discs that will eventually be mastered in deep color?

3. My new set is a non-elite Pio (5020). I don't regret not going Elite; the cost-benefit just wasn't there for me. But, I'm curious--will any of Pioneer's upcoming blu-ray players have any sort of picture, color, or color-space adjustments that would allow me to "compensate" for the lack of features/adjustments on my 5020?

Thanks for your time folks; sorry if any of these have indeed been asked and answered in the past or if they're ridiculous questions. I'm somewhat exhausted from my TV research, and it's a bit daunting to begin anew on another quest.
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post #2356 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

It boils down to compatibility. When BD was released HDMI 1.3 was not yet available and most TVs did not support 12bit per color; and, in order to take advantage of it you'd therefore need two completely seperate video encodes on every Blu-ray disc, an 8bit one for older TVs/players and a 12bit one for newer TVs, players. It would add confusion and compatibility headaches for less knowledgable consumers. And for the record, HD DVD had the same problem. Both are limited to 8bit per channel, meaning banding artifacts can be introduced when downconverting a master with 10bit/12bit per channel if dithering is not used. Warner seems to be most guilty of using less advanced master downconversion methods which sometimes introduce banding artifacts in some of their Blu-ray discs.

So, our best bet is for companies like Pioneer to come up with color upconversion techniques that can reduce/eliminate banding without losing other important picture detail by sampling and re-rendering the banded gradients in each frame. This is most definitely possible, but it would require a relatively powerful video processor. We'll see if Pioneer got off to a good start with their implementation when this player is released with its optional color upconversion feature.

They could of mastered disc's at 12-bit and than made players downconvert it to 8-bit, kinda like 1080p/24, but they didn't.
Maybe they tested it and it didn't show much of an improvement?
Or maybe they didn't have time to implement it before going to war with the axis of evil HDDVD.
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post #2357 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Based on what we have heard from initial demonstrations of the technology, the Pioneer offers an option that actually attempts to improve picture quality by reducing banding through the use of the deep color feature. Instead of simply outputting in 12bit like the PS3 & Panasonics do, Pioneer's technology attempts to work on the picture and make banded gradients appear to have smoother transitions. The feature of course can be disabled, and we don't know how effective it is - but it may offer a solution to reduce or eliminate banding on select titles with banding artifacts. Its not as good as true 12bit color encoded on the disc, but Blu-ray is limited to 8bit encoding.

To draw a parallel between DVD upscaling & color upscaling, the PS3/Panasonic do the bare minimum to upscale 8bit > 12bit; think of these as more "basic" color upscalers. On the other hand, the Pioneer offers the option to do significantly more post processing in order to improve the image and eliminate or reduce banding; think of the Pioneer as a more "advanced" color upscaler. Again, we won't know how effective it is until we see it on real world material with a production model. On test patterns, though, it did wonders with reducing banding according to insiders.

Also, your particular TV does support the 12bit feature.

Thank you! I have been toying with the idea of canceling my preorder on the Pioneer 51 because I have too many questions like the ones I asked. Answers like yours really make the decision to keep the preorder in place a lot easier.
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post #2358 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:53 AM
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Or maybe they didn't want a 50% increase in movie file size on disc and bit rate for reading that off the disc when people couldn't see the difference.
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post #2359 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:53 AM
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well, they have 50GB to work with, i think they'd be ok.
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post #2360 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

well, they have 50GB to work with, i think they'd be ok.

Processing power may be more of an issue than storage size. I think most BD players (except possibly the PS3) would choke on 40Mbps video compared to 25Mbps.

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post #2361 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 12:05 PM
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They could of mastered disc's at 12-bit and than made players downconvert it to 8-bit, kinda like 1080p/24, but they didn't.

To do a quality downconversion from 12bit to 8bit without visible artifacting in realtime no less would add significant cost to Blu-ray players. Being that they are expensive enough as it is and the impractical nature of dual 8bit/12bit encodes on each disc, they probably just settled on 8bit as the more practical standard.


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Originally Posted by SubArctic View Post

Folks,

I've been following this thread for a while, but just recently started paying closer attention; I've just gotten a new TV and I'm turning my research focus to a blu-ray player, with a target purchase date of November or December.


1. I understand that the PQLS (sp?) anti-jitter feature is available only when used in combination with Pio Elite AVRs. But is this a proprietary technology? Or is it some sort of open source or industry standard we might see in other AVRs in the future?

Unknown, but the Pioneer spokesperson here implied it was proprietary technology despite PQLS being based on an open feature of HDMI. We won't the answer to this for sure for a while most likely since Pioneer is the only company that has receivers out utilizing this feature of HDMI.

Quote:


2. The deep color feature intrigues me, but I won't be sold until people can actually play around with it--and preferably not until I can see it myself. But am I right in my understanding that there is no type of disc now conceived of (and therefore that will ever be read by these players) that actually has encoded deep color? In other words, am I correct that this feature is PURELY for up-conversion (or however you want to describe it) and not a future-proofing feature for discs that will eventually be mastered in deep color?

Correct, its purely color upconversion. You can't have a disc mastered in deep color since that would not comply with Blu-ray specifications.

Quote:


3. My new set is a non-elite Pio (5020). I don't regret not going Elite; the cost-benefit just wasn't there for me. But, I'm curious--will any of Pioneer's upcoming blu-ray players have any sort of picture, color, or color-space adjustments that would allow me to "compensate" for the lack of features/adjustments on my 5020?

Based on the screenshots there appears to be some options, unknown how many.
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post #2362 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 12:16 PM
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I placed my pre order today with Jeff Haag... Very excited....
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post #2363 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

anyone know why BD is limited to 8-bit? you'd think all this hurrah about HD formats wouldn't immediately cripple it right out of the gate for the next 10 years.

It's because Blu-Ray shot low.

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post #2364 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 12:48 PM
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There have also been leaks here (our far flung correspondents) stating that studios have done tests with true 12 bit color all the way from capture to light coming out of the display and viewers can't tell the difference to 8 bit color through similar quality home theater hardware (with higher bit rate internal processing).

I.e., going to the effort to capture the content to that bit depth gains nothing.

Take such reports with a grain of salt as there's no way to vet them, but it makes sense that there are diminishing returns in video digitizing just as there are in audio -- beyond a certain point human viewers can't tell the difference.

Personally I think increasing the color gamut is more important. The xvYCC color space standard (also optional in HDMI V1.3) does just that. It may turn out that 12 bit color encoding shows best if the content is also captured (and stored, and processed, and transmitted, and displayed) in the larger color gamut.

I.e., it takes more "steps" to span the increased color gamut smoothly.

All of this is fun to talk about, but it's not really relevant to Blu-Ray. Wait 10 years and there will undoubtedly be a new disc format that replaces Blu-Ray.
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post #2365 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

There have also been leaks here (our far flung correspondents) stating that studios have done tests with true 12 bit color all the way from capture to light coming out of the display and viewers can't tell the difference to 8 bit color through similar quality home theater hardware (with higher bit rate internal processing).

I think that is true, but the conversion to 8bit needs to be done properly for it to be so. If a studio does a poor job of downconversion, some artifacts such as banding could be introduced into the picture. However, if done properly I doubt most could tell the difference between 8bit and 12bit.

This particular Pioneer feature looks like it really just aims to correct aforementioned master downconversion errors, but how good of a job it does and at what cost (if any) to the rest of the picture will be unknown until we see it in action ourselves.
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post #2366 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

All of this is fun to talk about, but it's not really relevant to Blu-Ray. Wait 10 years and there will undoubtedly be a new disc format that replaces Blu-Ray.
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i'm a pretty firm believer that BD is the last physical disc medium. beyond BD is downloadable HD. and it's coming fast.
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post #2367 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 01:47 PM
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Now read what a guy from Kodak says:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/hub/itp/onColor.jhtml
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post #2368 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 05:18 PM
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I'm happy someone is trying to make some head way with Deep Color. From all the initial reviews on hdmi 1.3, that's one feature that didn't seem possible. If fact, many reviewers dismissed Deep Color and even advised against upgrading to the newer sets.

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post #2369 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

Re: DVD upconversion, look at the difference between a DVD upconverted with Reon to 1080p vs. a DVD upconverted to 1080p with a poor upconversion circuit. Massive difference, and the same will apply here. .

I doubt you are seeing "massive differences" in simply scaling from 480p to 1080p. The differences likely lie elsewhere. For example, with the Tosh XA2 (Reon), upscaling to 1080p results in undefeatable edge enhancement (even with the EE setting at zero) compared to 480p. You can see this easily with SD test patterns. Additionally, most displays recognize the upscaled resolution as "HD" and incorrectly utilize HD colorspace. This is incorrect, but it does result in "more pop" in the image.
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post #2370 of 4770 Old 06-23-2008, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by briansemerick View Post

i'm a pretty firm believer that BD is the last physical disc medium. beyond BD is downloadable HD. and it's coming fast.

Not unless internet speeds are a lot quicker than they are now and become available to the majority of people soon...which will not be happening for a long time. The average cable/DSL internet speed is way to slow for people to be downloading 50GB movies all the time to replace a disc. Sure fiber connections via phone companies are here but are still not all that fast and are not readily available to the majority of people. Some type of physical medium will be around for a very long time, especially when a lot of people like myself actually enjoy collecting movies and having that physical disc in hand!

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