BD Player Audio Support Comparison - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 494 Old 03-11-2008, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by dumdum12 View Post

Really helpful information!!!

I am in the market for BD player since the war is over but would have made a mistake of buying one that is not compatible for my 4306!!!

Your thread convinced me to wait for a FULLY COMPLETE (if there is anything like that...:-)) BD player as known today.

Your welcome.

I need to update the chart. The Denon 3800 has been released. It is complete from an audio codec decoding & connections sense. It is only profile 1.1 so it can't handle "internet features". How useful BD 2.0 is really depends on the person watching movies. Me personally I doubt I will ever use a BD 2.0 (BD Live) feature. The other bad news the 3800 is $1999 right now.

This fall should be a good time since the Panny BD50, Pioneer 05, Denon 3800, Sony S550 and Marantz 8002 will all be competing for the "full internal decoding" market.
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post #182 of 494 Old 03-11-2008, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by [/quote] View Post

What's the difference between DTS-HD HR and MA?

Simple answer is DTS-HD is a lossy codec like legacy DTS. It is higher bitrate and supports up to 8 channels but it is still Lossy. Dolby calls their new lossy codec DD+. DTS-HD is like DTS+.

DTS-HD:MA and TrueHD are lossless. When decompressed they are 1:1 exactly the same as the PCM master that created them.

Good - DTS & DD.
Better - DTS-HD & DD+
Best - TrueHD & DTS-HD:MA (and LPCM)
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post #183 of 494 Old 03-11-2008, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

I investigated this back and forth and finally decided not to for a couple of reasons.

I would rather error on the side of caution. If someone picked up the BDP-S300 believing it has TrueHD and it turns out it doesn't I would feel bad. Especially considering there are a dozen+ players that 100% are confirmed to playback and/or bitstream TrueHD.

I think you are safe to error on the side of caution regarding the S300. It is wishful thinking that it can decode TrueHD, but it is not clear. Until it is officially confirmed it is a guess. I tried comparing the DD track to the TrueHD track on Letters From Iwo Jima and by flipping back and forth on the menu and playing the same scenes over again, I COULD HERE NO DIFFERENCE in the sound. I have big doubts about it decoding TrueHD. I was passing LPCM through HDMI.

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post #184 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 05:38 AM
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guys, if your receiver doesn't support DTS, only DD 5.1, are there any BD players that will transcode DTS core to DD 5.1, the way the HD-A3/A30 series did for HD-DVD?

Or basically I'll be stuck with 2-channel analog only from BD movies that are DTS?
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post #185 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

guys, if your receiver doesn't support DTS, only DD 5.1, are there any BD players that will transcode DTS core to DD 5.1, the way the HD-A3/A30 series did for HD-DVD?

Or basically I'll be stuck with 2-channel analog only from BD movies that are DTS?

To my knowledge no player transcodes DTS -> DD. So if your AVR does not support DTS you would be "stuck" on DTS only tracks.
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post #186 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

To my knowledge no player transcodes DTS -> DD. So if your AVR does not support DTS you would be "stuck" on DTS only tracks.

Thanks, was afraid of that, but it gives me a good reason to upgrade the receiver. Will all players send 1.5 Mbps DTS core over optical? If so I might just get a used DTS receiver, if I can at least get DTS core from all movies.
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post #187 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

are there any BD players that will transcode DTS core to DD 5.1, the way the HD-A3/A30 series did for HD-DVD?

Are you sure about the HD DVD players? I have an A3 and am not aware that it does that. Earlier generation Toshibas transcoded TrueHD to dts 1.5 mbps, which was a problem for people without dts decoders. The A3 series switched to a 640 kbps transcode instead.
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post #188 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

Thanks, was afraid of that, but it gives me a good reason to upgrade the receiver. Will all players send 1.5 Mbps DTS core over optical? If so I might just get a used DTS receiver, if I can at least get DTS core from all movies.

All BD players are required to support DD @ 640K, DTS @ 1.5Mpbs, and LPCM. I haven't seen any that don't support DD, DTS & 2 channel PCM over optical. Some will also encode PCM as either DD or DTS for output over optical.

If you can get one cheap get a DTS capable AVR. If not the Onkyo605 is <$400 so I wouldn't spend more than $200-$250 on AVR without HDMI or advanced codec support at this time.
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post #189 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

Are you sure about the HD DVD players? I have an A3 and am not aware that it does that. Earlier generation Toshibas transcoded TrueHD to dts 1.5 mbps, which was a problem for people without dts decoders. The A3 series switched to a 640 kbps transcode instead.

I think you're right, I remember the Band of Brothers HD-DVD gave me no audio on the HD-A30, cause it was DTS only.
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post #190 of 494 Old 03-12-2008, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

All BD players are required to support DD @ 640K, DTS @ 1.5Mpbs, and LPCM. I haven't seen any that don't support DD, DTS & 2 channel PCM over optical. Some will also encode PCM as either DD or DTS for output over optical.

If you can get one cheap get a DTS capable AVR. If not the Onkyo605 is <$400 so I wouldn't spend more than $200-$250 on AVR without HDMI or advanced codec support at this time.

Ok cool, I was very happy with 640k DD 5.1 on HD-DVDs, so I'm sure I'd be happy with 1.5M DTS from a blu-ray player. I can get something like a Yamaha V995 for $100-150.

THanks for the help!
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post #191 of 494 Old 03-18-2008, 02:28 PM
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could someone clarify for me the differences from the regular dd,dts to core tracks to hd codecs. are the core ttracks essentialy the same as the dd,dts tracks or are they better or worse. got a good deal on a bd30 trying to determine if i will keep it and listen to the core tracks until i upgrade my receiver or make a play for a bd50 when it comes out.
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post #192 of 494 Old 03-18-2008, 07:02 PM
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It should be noted, that although the Pioneer BDP-95FD can internally decode TrueHD and DTS-HD HR, and output it via HDMI, it cannot output it via the 5.1 channel analog outputs.

I have confirmed this with Pioneer.

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post #193 of 494 Old 03-18-2008, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bdraw View Post

It should be noted, that although the Pioneer BDP-95FD can internally decode TrueHD and DTS-HD HR, and output it via HDMI, it cannot output it via the 5.1 channel analog outputs.

I have confirmed this with Pioneer.

Could this be a bad omen for the 05FD?
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post #194 of 494 Old 03-18-2008, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by joelsfla View Post

could someone clarify for me the differences from the regular dd,dts to core tracks to hd codecs. are the core ttracks essentialy the same as the dd,dts tracks or are they better or worse.

On DVD, DD is usually encoded at 448kbps and DTS is encoded at 768kbps. On Blu-ray, the DD track is 640kbps and the DTS core is 1.5mbps. These tracks are lossy, but sound quite a bit better than what you hear on DVD. The lossless codecs are another step up in quality. Personally, I was surprised at how much better the high bit rate lossy tracks sound. From there, I find the lossless tracks even clearer and more detailed.
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post #195 of 494 Old 03-19-2008, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kitchener View Post

Could this be a bad omen for the 05FD?

I doubt it, Pioneer says they hope to enabled decoding TrueHD and DTS-HD HR and outputing it via discrete analog outs, in a future firmware.

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post #196 of 494 Old 03-20-2008, 06:54 PM
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Major audio updates coming to the LG BH200 with a new firmware. I will post them when the firmware is official. Appears 5.1 TrueHD is one of them...


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post #197 of 494 Old 03-26-2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander View Post

You have a receiver that can decode all of the high res audio codecs. There are only four current players that can bitstream all of them, including dts-MA - the Denon 2500, Pioneer 95FD, Panasonic BD30, and Samsung 1400. The first two are about $1,000. The Samsung gets lots of negative reviews. The Panasonic seems to be the one for people with receivers that can handle all of the bitstream codecs.

What about the new Sony S350 to be released this Spring? With his Onkyo 650, would he get the benefits of all the codecs, including DTS-HD MA and True HD? - Also, is there any advantage in getting a BR player that decodes all the codecs (e.g., the 550) if you have one of the HDMI 1.3 AVRs that includes decoding capabilities? Or is this simply redundant and an unnecessary cost?

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post #198 of 494 Old 03-26-2008, 07:57 PM
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Namechamps,

This is very useful for information. I appreciate the effort you've made in gathering and charting this data; it's a big time saver for those of us looking for a new blu-ray player.
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post #199 of 494 Old 03-26-2008, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post

What about the new Sony S350 to be released this Spring? With his Onkyo 650, would he get the benefits of all the codecs, including DTS-HD MA and True HD?

That was a response to a question about current players. The S350 is one of several announced players that will be able to bitstream everything. Some of them will also be able to decode all of the new codecs themselves, including dts-MA. All of these new players match up well with an HDMI 1.3 receiver like the Onkyo 605.

Quote:
Also, is there any advantage in getting a BR player that decodes all the codecs (e.g., the 550) if you have one of the HDMI 1.3 AVRs that includes decoding capabilities? Or is this simply redundant and an unnecessary cost?

Player decoding in necessary for using advanced content features such as PIP commentary and menu sounds.
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post #200 of 494 Old 03-27-2008, 03:43 PM
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Namechamps,

The Philips BDP7200 manual is online. Audio support is on p. 36 (oops). I see no mention of Master audio, unless they are grouping it al together.

http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/b/b...37_dfu_aen.pdf

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post #201 of 494 Old 03-27-2008, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

Namechamps,

The Philips BDP7200 manual is online. Audio support is on p. 36 (oops). I see no mention of Master audio, unless they are grouping it al together.

http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/b/b...37_dfu_aen.pdf

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What I gather from the chart is that the BDP7200 will not output or decode ANY lossless or high resolution lossy audio codecs when "mixing audio output" ie. PiP, button sounds (maybe when you press menu?), but will instead either decode or bitstream the regular Dolby Digital or DTS "core" tracks.
It seems from this chart that the BDP7200 will decode all the high resolution codecs over HDMI when just playing the movie, as it doesn't have any asterisks regarding the audio codecs in regards to the primary audio track. However, we won't know for sure until this baby is released and someone tests this out.
I would think that DTS-HD would include both HRA and MA.
This is PURELY SPECULATION on my part, but if my guess is correct, and this player is profile 1.1, I may get this player instead of the BD50, as it seems it will be about $200-$300 cheaper than the BD50.

EDIT: I guess the player would have to be profile 1.1 at least due to the BDA's recent restriction on release of BD players.

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post #202 of 494 Old 03-28-2008, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by friedriceballer View Post

What I gather from the chart is that the BDP7200 will not output or decode ANY lossless or high resolution lossy audio codecs when "mixing audio output" ie. PiP, button sounds (maybe when you press menu?), but will instead either decode or bitstream the regular Dolby Digital or DTS "core" tracks.
It seems from this chart that the BDP7200 will decode all the high resolution codecs over HDMI when just playing the movie, as it doesn't have any asterisks regarding the audio codecs in regards to the primary audio track. However, we won't know for sure until this baby is released and someone tests this out.
I would think that DTS-HD would include both HRA and MA.

That's a rather confusing audio chart using some terms I have never seen before (such as "independent stream" when refering to DD+ decoding).

But, I come to a different conclusion about the new codecs. I believe the chart says this player only bitstreams the new high bit rate codecs. Internal decoding seems to be limited to the legacy codecs. The fact that the advanced content audio mix is limited to the legacy codecs is consistent with the notion that this player lacks decoders for the new formats. The manual makes no mention of dts-MA, just DTS-HD. So, who knows.
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post #203 of 494 Old 03-29-2008, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

...

1)It based only on a single industry insider and not confirmed by Sony offically.
2) Sony helpdesk has reported the BDP-S300 absolutely 100% does not decode TrueHD.
3) It is very hard to "prove" with a commercial disc. If you select a TrueHD track all BD players that can't decode/stream it should use DD instead. If the track is decoded internally and you hear sound is it TrueHD or DD? An AVR will report multi-channel in for both. Are you really hearing TrueHD or do you want to hear TrueHD?

4) At least on AVS member burned a TrueHD track with NO DD track to a DVD-9 in BD format (aka BD-9). It does not play properly on the BDP-S300. If the S300 supports TrueHD shouldn't it playback this "test disc"? It is possible the disc is an exception but looking at the other points (unconfirmed by Sony, not possible to prove, and now doesn't work on the one conclusive test) it doesn't look good.

I would rather error on the side of caution. If someone picked up the BDP-S300 believing it has TrueHD and it turns out it doesn't I would feel bad. Especially considering there are a dozen+ players that 100% are confirmed to playback and/or bitstream TrueHD.

I support your decision not to put down TrueHD support in the chart, because it's never been officially confirmed by Sony in their product page and also because Paidgeek said something about the possibility of it's removal in future firmware. It is unsatisfactory the S300 will only send the decoded PCM to HDMI but not to analogue 5.1.

A few comments on the above points.

3) It is tricky to do valid testing: it needs careful planning and you only have your hearing to judge the results.

PG compared output via HDMI (TrueHD) and optical (DD) and I think it is reasonable to do that as one is likely to hear a difference. But one has to be careful of any inherent difference between the HDMI and optical inputs in levels and bass management.

Likewise, comparing between TrueHD and LPCM, if available on the same disc and if both are of the same resolution, both via HDMI would be possible too. You'd expect both to sound the same (level match if necessary). If DD is available separately you can compare it too.

Comparing the same disc with TrueHD between the S500 (which decodes TrueHD officially) and the S300, when both are connected via HDMI to the same receiver can also be done.

4) We simply don't know if the BD9 was authored correctly. Is a disc with TrueHD without DD in spec? Do we know if the S300 will play a BD9? So there are potential confounding variables introduced with this method.

BTW, the price for the S300 has been $399 for a while, not $499.

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post #204 of 494 Old 03-31-2008, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

BTW, the price for the S300 has been $399 for a while, not $499.

Thanks. Will update it in next version of chart.
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post #205 of 494 Old 04-02-2008, 02:26 AM
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Are there any players have on-board lip synch delay as well as adjustable sub crossover ?
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post #206 of 494 Old 04-02-2008, 05:48 AM
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I love your work here!
Suggestion: Now that PS3 supports BD Live, does that equate with profile 2.0 functionality)?), and if so you'll want to update that point.
Cheers

to each his own...
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post #207 of 494 Old 04-02-2008, 06:55 AM
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Awesome work namechamps! Great that it's now a sticky. Luckily, I stumbled onto your thread and have narrowed my choices to the Sony BDP-S550 vs the Panny BD-50. Thanks again for updating.


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post #208 of 494 Old 04-02-2008, 11:25 AM
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Me too, the DMP-BD50 or the BDP-S550.
It almost 'hurts' to wait that long for it.

I now use a PS3 40GB with latest firmware for blu-ray but
the damn thing keeps making one hell of a noise.
The 160mm fan won't slow down to silent mode, not even when
it's idle in the XMB menu.

The disadvantages of the PS3 are (for as far I'm concerned):
  • High(er) power usage (±130W) in comparison with standalone players (±30W)
  • I have the misfortune of having a PS3 with the loud fan noise problem
  • No bitstream output possible for lossless HD audio formats
  • No DTS-HD MA decoding (yet)
  • No display on the player itself (a VFD would be and can be very nice)
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post #209 of 494 Old 04-02-2008, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank for all the encouraging words.

Update today (04 APR 2008) to version 1.7:
Updated PS3 to BD2.0
Updated Sony player prices.
Indicated HBR decode is limited to HDMI on Pioneer 95.
Indicated S550 is upgradeable to BD2.0?
Added Phillips DMP7200 & Sharp HP50
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post #210 of 494 Old 04-06-2008, 04:44 PM
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i would like to know the same as my denon 3808 already does the decoding as well.
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