FAQ: Denon 2500, Panasonic DMP-BD10, Panasonic DMP-BD30 "LFE Bug" - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 183 Old 02-10-2008, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joke View Post

However, with Panasonic's decoding of 'trueHD' and re-encoding of 'DD 5.1' tricks (SPECIAL NOTE: they fully admit that they are decoding trueHD and are encoding DD 5.1), I wind up with something that is not an accurate DD 5.1 signal representing the original input. As far as I can tell, Panasonic's DD 5.1 encoding is severely flawed (if trueHD is truly a loseless representation of the original audio, as promised).

The BD30 cannot decode TrueHD at all, so re-encoding is not an option. Unless the player is in interactive mode, or the content is forcing PIP mode on, the DD stream being output should be the one encoded by the studio that travels in tandem with the lossless stream. If the disc is playing 5.1 PCM, that of course will always be DD encoded by the player.
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post #92 of 183 Old 02-10-2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The BD30 cannot decode TrueHD at all, so re-encoding is not an option. Unless the player is in interactive mode, or the content is forcing PIP mode on, the DD stream being output should be the one encoded by the studio that travels in tandem with the lossless stream. If the disc is playing 5.1 PCM, that of course will always be DD encoded by the player.

Ok, I don't know what they are doing, I have not taken it apart and analyzed the circuitry. The owner's manual says that if I am playing a trueHD track it can be sent out as DD 5.1. I would assume that if they are sending me the same track I am playing, in a different format, they are decoding trueHD and encoding into DD 5.1.

I am not going to go back and re-read the manual but if you do a search for trueHD, you get more than 10 hits. On their web-site it clearly states that the BD30 is decoding 'these audio signals':

Quote:


UniPhier®'s advanced processing capability decodes these audio signals

If they are not decoding trueHD and DTS-HD-MA, they are clearly (and intentionally) misleading the public. The full quote is in my earlier post. That was certainly a primary reason I bought it instead of a PS3.
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post #93 of 183 Old 02-10-2008, 10:31 PM
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I can see now why you're misinformed, and confused about this. The website is wrongly use the word "decodes" but it says it "bitsreams" the signal which essentially mean it doesn't decode internally, that is what this player actually does with those advanced formats. Panasonic indeed should chnage that wording to avoid further confusion. The only thing this player decodes are legacy DD and DTS encodes.

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post #94 of 183 Old 02-10-2008, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by thehun View Post

I can see now why you're misinformed, and confused about this. The website is wrongly use the word "decodes" but it says it "bitsreams" the signal which essentially mean it doesn't decode internally, that is what this player actually does with those advanced formats. Panasonic indeed should chnage that wording to avoid further confusion. The only thing this player decodes are legacy DD and DTS encodes.

I wasn't confused in the least, they said it and I believed it. To add to the effect that Panasonic is obviously trying to promote, go back and re-read the owner's manual. I almost hope they will say it was the old language translation problem... There is a .pdf version available on the web-site (easy to scan for trueHD).

Panasonic's intent, whether truthful or not, was successful and I would expect that Dobly and others should hold their feet to the fire for tainting their good names.
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post #95 of 183 Old 02-10-2008, 11:44 PM
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Well it was pretty obvious for me [and hundreds of others here] even before I bought the player that it won't decode those formats, and it's bitsreaming capabilities were the reason I bought it for and so is the majority here. BTW there is a big difference between "licencing" and "certifiyng". Dolby is licencing technology. The faulty part in the BD-30 is hardware not built nor licenced by Dolby hence they have no reason to "hold their feet to the fire" period!

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post #96 of 183 Old 02-11-2008, 09:11 PM
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This is a great FAQ; thanks for explaining the details of the issue clearly.

The thing I'm still not sure about is how much this matters, based on how many BD titles have only LPCM or PCM audio? If all the non-PCM audio formats can be bitstreamed to a capable AVR over HDMI without issue (as I understand is the case), and only a few titles have PCM audio (which is what I'm unsure of), then I'd be okay living with the issue.

Is there a thread somewhere for this already, listing the PCM-only BD titles out there?

Thanks guys, your willingness to take the time to post info and answer all these Q's is sincerely appreciated.

Nathan
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post #97 of 183 Old 02-11-2008, 09:44 PM
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Got this link via PM (thanks Joe Murphy Jr!) and yeah, looks like a LOT of titles ship with PCM audio only:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php?OrderBy=Audio

Bummer Guess I'm waiting for a player that can stream all audio types over HDMI without any bugs! Thx guys.
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post #98 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanSheller View Post

Got this link via PM (thanks Joe Murphy Jr!) and yeah, looks like a LOT of titles ship with PCM audio only:

http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php?OrderBy=Audio

Bummer Guess I'm waiting for a player that can stream all audio types over HDMI without any bugs! Thx guys.

Bummer is right. Hopefully these players get a fix, or some sort of solution soon.

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post #99 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Bummer is right. Hopefully these players get a fix, or some sort of solution soon.

Well look at it positively. You have an excuse to keep the PS3!! I've grown quite fond of that machine and sort of dreading the idea of abandoning it when I got the BD30. Now I don't have to
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post #100 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanSheller View Post

This is a great FAQ; thanks for explaining the details of the issue clearly.

The thing I'm still not sure about is how much this matters, based on how many BD titles have only LPCM or PCM audio? If all the non-PCM audio formats can be bitstreamed to a capable AVR over HDMI without issue (as I understand is the case), and only a few titles have PCM audio (which is what I'm unsure of), then I'd be okay living with the issue.

Is there a thread somewhere for this already, listing the PCM-only BD titles out there?

Thanks guys, your willingness to take the time to post info and answer all these Q's is sincerely appreciated.

Nathan

I have an Onkyo 805,it decodes everything beautifully! I have zero issues,the sound is incredible..DDtrueHD and DTS Master Audio sound stellar..Even PCM sounds awesome..I loved my Integra 7.2,but the Onkyo blows it away.. Upgrade your receivers!
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post #101 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 09:53 AM
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Ok, let me refresh my memory and review this LFE bug.

The LFE is 5 dB too low via PCM over HDMI. The -5dB is in comparison to all other audio, including other low bass content that isn't in the LFE signal? (I am sure there is low bass music not in the LFE)

This means that all LFE audio will be lower than other audio including any other low bass audio not in the LFE and there is no way to adjust only the LFE audio without affecting other low bass audio? So adjusting your subwoofer level in the receiver or on the subwoofer volume control changes both the LFE and other low bass audio headed for the subwoofer, so you still have a -5 dB discrepency between LFE and other audio like other low bass, and the rest of the frequency range too?

Does this only happen with some speakers set to small? ...or is there low bass other than LFE going to my subwoofer when I set all my speakers to large? I guess it depends on the receiver. (This is the part where I wonder if some discs have music or other audio that goes down low in bass, and will be played by a subwoofer, but this audio isn't in the LFE channel)

If there was one simple thing Panasonic could do to solve this, it would be to have an adjustment available in the Blu-Ray players themselves from -10 dB to +10 dB for the LFE alone. Everybody calibrates their own setups using the players adjustments and Problem solved.
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post #102 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

If there was one simple thing Panasonic could do to solve this, it would be to have an adjustment available in the Blu-Ray players themselves from -10 dB to +10 dB for the LFE alone. Everybody calibrates their own setups using the players adjustments and Problem solved.

I was thinking AVR or pre/pro. Many already have -10dB and -20dB settings for LFE; all that would be needed is +5dB.
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post #103 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I was thinking AVR or pre/pro. Many already have -10dB and -20dB settings for LFE; all that would be needed as +5dB.

I meant an LFE adjustable range from -10 dB up to +10 dB in 1 dB steps. WAY too much to ask, but the idea was to allow for a new feature instead of just fixing a bug.

So if I listen to my setup with all of my speakers set to large, am I ok? I guess if there is bass in my surrounds, I am kinda missing it this way, cause they don't go down that low.

I could use the analog multi-channel outputs, but like so many others, they are already occupied by my SACD/DVD-audio DPL-II CD player. Also, using the multi-channel outputs prevents me from using surround modes like DPL IIx on soundtracks.
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post #104 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by cpc View Post

I could use the analog multi-channel outputs, but like so many others, they are already occupied by my SACD/DVD-audio DPL-II CD player. Also, using the multi-channel outputs prevents me from using surround modes like DPL IIx on soundtracks.

And Odyssey equalization, too. However, I'm about to switch to DVD-A and SACD over HDMI to free up the multi-channel analog inputs. Gotta at least try it.
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post #105 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

And Odyssey equalization, too. However, I'm about to switch to DVD-A and SACD over HDMI to free up the multi-channel analog inputs. Gotta at least try it.

once you try it you will never use analog again, it is **** compared to HDMI

-Gary
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post #106 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

once you try it you will never use analog again, it is **** compared to HDMI

-Gary

Even with the Denon 3910's excellent no-**** DACs?
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post #107 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 11:48 AM
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maybe that was a little harsh (which I have known to be from time to time ) , but yes I stand by it, the best DAC in the world will not beat a pure digital transmission, the DAC no matter how good is still converting

-Gary
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post #108 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowTech1 View Post

I have an Onkyo 805,it decodes everything beautifully! I have zero issues,the sound is incredible..DDtrueHD and DTS Master Audio sound stellar..Even PCM sounds awesome..I loved my Integra 7.2,but the Onkyo blows it away.. Upgrade your receivers!

I have an Integra DTC-9.8. It is the pre/pro version of the Onkyo 905. It is affected by the low LFE HDMI PCM bug, and your receiver is too. There is no avoiding it or easy workaround. While PCM may sound awesome with your new receiver, it would sound more awesome if the LFE on PCM was the correct volume.

Over 50% of Blu-ray discs with lossless tracks have PCM as the only lossless audio option. Virtually all of the recent Disney/Miramax/etc releases still use PCM as the only lossless option. That means over half of your movies with lossless tracks will have weak LFE relative to what they are supposed to have, and all of your Disney movies will have inaccurate LFE. That is unacceptable, and Panasonic needs to fix the problem in the BD30 as well as in the BD50 if it also will be affected by this issue.

Vote with your wallet. Don't buy Cinavia-infected Blu-ray Discs! Why pay a premium for pseudo-lossless audio damaged by an intrusive watermark in the audible spectrum?
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post #109 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

maybe that was a little harsh (which I have known to be from time to time ) , but yes I stand by it, the best DAC in the world will not beat a pure digital transmission, the DAC no matter how good is still converting

-Gary

Well there's gotta be DACs somewhere unless you've got digital ears. I take it, being newer, the 885 DACs are better than the 3910's? Also, the 3910 manual - surprising to me after owning it for three years - gives a maximum transmission of 16-bit 48KHz. Theres a lot thrown away "at that rate" on quite a few DVD-As.
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post #110 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

. . . It is the pre/pro version of the Onkyo 905. It is affected by the low LFE HDMI PCM bug, and your receiver is too. There is no avoiding it or easy workaround. While PCM may sound awesome with your new receiver, it would sound more awesome if the LFE on PCM was the correct volume . . .

Ruined:

Are you saying that the Onkyo and Integra receivers/processors exhibit the LFE bug themselves or that is the case only when the Panny BD30 is used in conjunction with them?

I believe I read in some thread that there were some questions regarding something similar to this Panny LFE bug showing up in the Onkyo's, but can't really remember. If that is what you are saying, is there some definitive statement of this? I've been following the 905 threads pretty closely and I don't remember this coming up as a recurring complaint or question.

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post #111 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 05:42 PM
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Please excuse this naieve question, but with this LFE problem, why is the PS3 not an obvious "solution"? Is it the non-ir remote issue or the idea that it's a gaming machine more than BD player?

I'm very new to the entire world of HD and BD, and I just purchased the BD30 this weekend. Now that I know about the LFE issue I'm really wondering what's wrong with the PS3, and why I shouldn't consider it during the 30-day return period.
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post #112 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bcab17 View Post

Please excuse this naieve question, but with this LFE problem, why is the PS3 not an obvious "solution"? Is it the non-ir remote issue or the idea that it's a gaming machine more than BD player?

I'm very new to the entire world of HD and BD, and I just purchased the BD30 this weekend. Now that I know about the LFE issue I'm really wondering what's wrong with the PS3, and why I shouldn't consider it during the 30-day return period.

If you have an AVR with the new hi rez decoders, the PS-3 is not able to stream them out via its non-1.3 HDMI. And, it can only decode a subset of them into PCM.
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post #113 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If you have an AVR with the new hi rez decoders, the PS-3 is not able to stream them out via its non-1.3 HDMI. And, it can only decode a subset of them into PCM.

Thanks Roger. I just purchased a Denon 3808 that decodes all of the latest audio formats. I just saw an earlier post that read:

1. Set the BD-30 to perform BM (Small fronts, 80 crossover). It will only perform BM on PCM tracks, leaving bitstreamed untouched.
2. Set my Denon 3808 to add +5db on the subwoofer channel, but only for PCM, not bitstream (luckily, on the new Denon's it will remember this +5 db for PCM only, leaving the proper +0db for all bitstreamed content).
3. Set Denon BM to the same small, 80 crossover to avoid redirecting additional bass.
4. Now I have proper output, no compromises, and no manual adjustment needed because the Denon remembers the +5db for PCM only


Does this sound right to you? Does this represent a very good work-around for Denon 3808 owners?
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post #114 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If you have an AVR with the new hi rez decoders, the PS-3 is not able to stream them out via its non-1.3 HDMI. And, it can only decode a subset of them into PCM.

You mention the PS3's non-1.3 hdmi. I thought I read somewhere that it is 1.3 (I think it came as one of many firmware updates), but I may be wrong.
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post #115 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Well look at it positively. You have an excuse to keep the PS3!! I've grown quite fond of that machine and sort of dreading the idea of abandoning it when I got the BD30. Now I don't have to

I agree completely I love the PS3 and would keep it either way as I am starting to get into SACD a little bit since the PS3 got here, and also enjoy some of its other features. I think the PS3/BD30 combo is the best Blu-ray solution on the market.

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post #116 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da Choge View Post

Ruined:

Are you saying that the Onkyo and Integra receivers/processors exhibit the LFE bug themselves or that is the case only when the Panny BD30 is used in conjunction with them?

I believe I read in some thread that there were some questions regarding something similar to this Panny LFE bug showing up in the Onkyo's, but can't really remember. If that is what you are saying, is there some definitive statement of this? I've been following the 905 threads pretty closely and I don't remember this coming up as a recurring complaint or question.

- da Choge

I am sure Ruined will confirm this, but he is talking ONLY when the Panny 10 or 30 or Denon is used in conjuction with the Onkyo/Integra or any other processor with HDMI in. The Onkyo/Integra DO NOT have any LFE issues themselves.

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post #117 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 07:47 PM
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Swapped my BD30 for a PS3 this weekend do to the LFE bug. I now regret not going this route in the first place. Aside from being ugly, it is better in every way than the BD30. It boots faster, loads BD faster, the menus and remote (got the free BT remote) is much more responsive and I love the way the HUD fades in and out. I would have never considered using it as a BD player if it had not been for Panasonic's LFE bug. Now that I've seen the other side, I won't switch back even if Panny does get on the ball and fix the bug. Who cares if the TrueHD icon doesn't light up on my receiver. It's all digital anyway.

What a relief that I don't have to check this thread everyday for updates

Good luck to the rest of you BD30 owners!
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post #118 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

. . . he is talking ONLY when the Panny 10 or 30 or Denon is used in conjuction with the Onkyo/Integra or any other processor with HDMI . . .

That's what I figured, but the wording of the statement [and a vague recollection of a post discussing some potential LFE problem with the Onkyo] made me think twice. Thanks, Toe.

I have also found that I really like multi-channel SACD recordings since getting the PS3 (now that they're almost impossible to come by ; SACDs, that is).

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post #119 of 183 Old 02-12-2008, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by da Choge View Post

That's what I figured, but the wording of the statement [and a vague recollection of a post discussing some potential LFE problem with the Onkyo] made me think twice. Thanks, Toe.

I have also found that I really like multi-channel SACD recordings since getting the PS3 (now that they're almost impossible to come by ; SACDs, that is).

- da Choge

The PS3 got me into SACD as well, but like you, I feel a little late to the party as they are not easy to find localy. Atleast we can still get them off the net. I am waiting for a Dire Straights SACD that should come any day now

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post #120 of 183 Old 02-13-2008, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wyld0 View Post

Swapped my BD30 for a PS3 this weekend do to the LFE bug. I now regret not going this route in the first place. Aside from being ugly, it is better in every way than the BD30. It boots faster, loads BD faster, the menus and remote (got the free BT remote) is much more responsive and I love the way the HUD fades in and out. I would have never considered using it as a BD player if it had not been for Panasonic's LFE bug. Now that I've seen the other side, I won't switch back even if Panny does get on the ball and fix the bug. Who cares if the TrueHD icon doesn't light up on my receiver. It's all digital anyway.

What a relief that I don't have to check this thread everyday for updates

Good luck to the rest of you BD30 owners!

Yep - but it's that "ugly" part that still keeps me away
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