FAQ: Denon 2500, Panasonic DMP-BD10, Panasonic DMP-BD30 "LFE Bug" - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 183 Old 01-24-2008, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
FAQ: Denon 2500, Panasonic DMP-BD10, Panasonic DMP-BD30 "LFE Bug"

Update:
Issue is resolved on DMP-BD30 ONLY with firmware v1.6.
There is currently no resolution for Denon 2500 or DMP-BD10.

What is the issue?
The LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1) for PCM output over HDMI is 5db lower than it should. This applies to any tracks internally decoded to PCM or native PCM track on the disc.

What is a LFE?
The LFE or Low Frequency Effect is channel that contains frequencies below 120Hz. It is the ".1" in 5.1 or 7.1 tracks. It contains sounds designed to go exclusively to the sub woofer.

Is analog affected?
No. Analog does not appear to be affected. The output leaving the mixer is -5db but the LFE channel is amplified 5db after DAC (digital to analog conversion) so it is at the proper level.

Is SPDIF (digital out, optical out) affected?
No. This only affect PCM output on the LFE channel. PCM is limited to 2 channels (Left & right) over SPDIF. There is no LFE output to be affected.

Is bitstream output affected?
No. Bitstream output which is sending the raw compressed track is not affected. DD, DTS, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA tracks are NOT affected if the player output is bitstream. Regardless of the player settings LPCM tracks are always sent as PCM so LPCM tracks on a BD disc output over HDMI will always be affected.

So if I have player set to bitstream to a compatible receiver (Onkyo-705) I am not affected?
No. LPCM tracks on the disc are output as PCM regardless of player settings. Since they are output as PCM they will be affected. There is currently no player setting to bypass the issue when playing a PCM track.

Can't I just boost the LFE channel +5db on my AVR (receiver)?
Virtually all AVR only allow lowering the LFE channel not raising it. If you AVR has a +5db setting it could compensate but I am not aware of any AVR that has such a setting. This is not the same thing as boosting the sub (see next questions).

Can't I just boost the subwoofer output +5db on my AVR (receiver)?
Not if you are using any bass management. Most HT setups redirect bass below a certain cutoff (40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz) from main speakers to the subwoofer. Boosting the sub +5db will make the LFE channel have proper level but now the redirected bass from other 5 or 7 channels is now running "+5db too hot".

I am not using any bass management (speakers set to "large"). Can I boost subwoofer output +5db?
Yes. If the AVR is not applying ANY bass management then all bass from main channels goes to main speakers. There is no redirected bass, only the LFE channel goes to the subwoofer. The sub should be raised +5db for LPCM tracks and set to normal on all other tracks. For bass management to be turned off all speakers must be able to handle full range as main channels routinely have bass <40Hz. With bass management that bass is redirected to the subwoofer. If bass management is turned off and speakers can't handle the low frequency then sound quality will be negatively affected.

I want accurate channel balance. What can I do?
For the Panasonic DMP-BD30 download and install firmware version 1.6 or later. The issue has been confirmed resolved with firmware 1.6.

There are "workarounds" for the other two players until a fix is made available. Each has a drawback. Also if you have speakers set to "large" (full range) then you can also raise/lower SW output (see above).

On Denon 2500 ONLY lower other channels in player menu:
In player setup change all the channels except the LFE to -5b. The LFE should be left at +0db. Since the LFE is already incorrectly lowered 5db now all the channels will have the same level. The settings only affect PCM output so bitstream is not negatively affected. The overall film volume level for PCM output will now be 5db lower and can be compensated by turning up volume 5b on AVR. You can not used this workaround on the Panasonic players. While they have the level options in player setup menu they only affect the analog output not PCM over HDMI.

On DMP-BD10 ONLY use analog output for PCM tracks:
Connect the player via 6 channel analog out to AVR. All tracks except PCM should be bitstream by HDMI normally. For PCM tracks switch to analog input. The speaker distances, levels, and crossovers will need to be set in player as most AVR do not apply any DSP logic to analog in.

Is there a simple workaround to get bass response that is "close"?
While not a true fix or workaround some members have been raising SW output 2-3db. You will not want to raise SW level +5db if using bass management as this will cause SW to run "too hot". The LFE level will be correct but all redirected bass will be +5db. Setting SW level +2db or +3db is a compromise. The LFE output will be 2-3db too low and redirected bass will be 2-3 too high. Understand this is not a 100% accurate fix but rather a method to boost SW response to compensate for LFE drop without over compensating.

I don't notice this issue with my player. Are you sure it is affected?
If your player is one of the affected players then you have the bug. It isn't a player build issue but rather a design issue that affects all players of that model. Stating 100% that a player is not affected without doing a comparison to another player is not possible. If during a point in the movie the LFE channel hits 85db, then 80db will be output. A viewer has no way to know the track is 85db. Without a frame of reference how can it be determined that 80db is right or too low? It may be possible to say "it doesn't bother me", "even with the bug output is good" but saying the bug doesn't exist is simply wrong.

What about using Analog output (thanks Krisjan)?
The 6 channel analog output is NOT affected by the LFE issue. PCM tracks can be output properly over analog out. However player can not decode DD+,TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA tracks for output over analog out.

The analog output can be used for PCM tracks only and the HDMI output used for all other tracks via bitstream. Since the issue only affects PCM over HDMI (which isn't being used) all outputs will be accurate.

While the LFE bug is "fixed" by using Analog outputs, analog has it's own set of limitations. The largest is that analog out is only 6 channel which can not output 7 & 8 channel tracks. Most AVR can not matrix 5.1->7.1 speakers via analog input. Bass management needs to be done in the player as most AVR will not apply any logic to analog inputs. Bass management in player may not be as capable as AVR. Some AVR apply room balancing, speaker distance calculations that exceed those offered in player (Audessey processing on Onkyo). You will need to switch input on AVR for each movie (analog in for PCM tracks, HDMI in for all others).

More information on analog workaround can be found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=993305
namechamps is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 183 Old 01-24-2008, 07:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Donnie Eldridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
You should request a sticky.
Donnie Eldridge is offline  
post #3 of 183 Old 01-24-2008, 09:04 PM
Advanced Member
 
wyliec2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: SD
Posts: 717
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Excellent summation!

Wyatt
wyliec2 is offline  
post #4 of 183 Old 01-24-2008, 10:39 PM
Member
 
mtntrance's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Palm Desert, CA
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks.
mtntrance is offline  
post #5 of 183 Old 01-24-2008, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtntrance View Post

How do you know the Denon has it? Thanks.

It was confirmed by Roger (from Dolby) in the BD30 thread. I will try to locate and quote the actual post tomorrow.
namechamps is offline  
post #6 of 183 Old 01-25-2008, 12:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Just curious, how was it or [by who] confirmed that the analogs are not affected?

Also how do we know that the uncompressed signal enters the "mixer" when the secondary audio is set to off [as it should be] to avoid such manipulation in the first place? [Same goes for the +5db boost after DA conversion] I'm not saying it doesn't or can't but I wonder where your info on this comes from, or is it just a theory at this point?

thanks.

sent via Morse code...........

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #7 of 183 Old 01-25-2008, 02:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kilian.ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ex-50Hz, now 60Hz
Posts: 1,901
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Is the LFE encoded 5db lower on all the discs, so it is the player's proper job to raise it?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

Kilian.ca is offline  
post #8 of 183 Old 01-25-2008, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Donnie Eldridge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 3,946
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Is the LFE encoded 5db lower on all the discs, so it is the player's proper job to raise it?

The issue has nothing to do with the encoding. It's about the decoding within the player.
Donnie Eldridge is offline  
post #9 of 183 Old 01-25-2008, 03:25 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sergiohm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,242
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Just curious, how was it or [by who] confirmed that the analogs are not affected?

Also how do we know that the uncompressed signal enters the "mixer" when the secondary audio is set to off [as it should be] to avoid such manipulation in the first place? [Same goes for the +5db boost after DA conversion] I'm not saying it doesn't or can't but I wonder where your info on this comes from, or is it just a theory at this point?

thanks.

Both were confirmed by Roger Dressler from Dolby.

5db gain

Confirmation of LFE issue difficult to resolve

Others have tested as well. I wish we were making this up but no one is.
sergiohm is online now  
post #10 of 183 Old 01-25-2008, 09:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kilian.ca's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ex-50Hz, now 60Hz
Posts: 1,901
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie Eldridge View Post

The issue has nothing to do with the encoding. It's about the decoding within the player.

So, as previously pointed out, LFE leaving the mixer is -5db, and that is the incorrect step?

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

Kilian.ca is offline  
post #11 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 06:31 AM
Member
 
Mcguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Central America
Posts: 70
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

FAQ: Denon 2500, Panasonic DMP-BD10, Panasonic DMP-BD30 "LFE Bug"

What is the issue?
The LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1) for PCM output over HDMI is 5db lower than it should. This applies to any tracks internally decoded to PCM or native PCM track on the disc.

What is a LFE?
The LFE or Low Frequency Effect is channel that contains frequencies below 120Hz. It is the ".1" in 5.1 or 7.1 tracks. It contains sounds designed to go exclusively to the sub woofer.

Is analog affected?
No. Analog does not appear to be affected. The output leaving the mixer is -5db but the LFE channel is amplified 5db after DAC (digital to analog conversion) so it is at the proper level.

Is SPDIF (digital out, optical out) affected?
No. This only affect PCM output on the LFE channel. PCM is limited to 2 channels (Left & right) over SPDIF. There is no LFE output to be affected.

Is bitstream output affected?
No. Bitstream output which is sending the raw compressed track is not affected. DD, DTS, DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD, DTS-HD MA tracks are NOT affected if the player output is bitstream. Regardless of the player settings LPCM tracks are always sent as PCM so LPCM tracks on a BD disc output over HDMI will always be affected.

So if I have player set to bitstream to a compatible receiver (Onkyo-705) I am not affected?
No. LPCM tracks on the disc are output as PCM regardless of player settings. Since they are output as PCM they will be affected. There is currently no player setting to bypass the issue when playing a PCM track.

Can't I just boost the LFE channel +5db on my AVR (receiver)?
Virtually all AVR only allow lowering the LFE channel not raising it. If you AVR has a +5db setting it could compensate but I am not aware of any AVR that has such a setting. This is not the same thing as boosting the sub (see next questions).

Can't I just boost the subwoofer output +5db on my AVR (receiver)?
Not if you are using any bass management. Most HT setups redirect bass below a certain cutoff (40Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz) from main speakers to the subwoofer. Boosting the sub +5db will make the LFE channel have proper level but now the redirected bass from other 5 or 7 channels is now running "+5db too hot".

I don't notice this issue with my player. Are you sure it is affected?
If your player is one of the affected players then you have the bug. It isn't a player build issue but rather a design issue that affects all players of that model. Stating 100% that a player is not affected without doing a comparison to another player is not possible. If during a point in the movie the LFE channel hits 85db, then 80db will be output. A viewer has no way to know the track is 85db. Without a frame of reference how can it be determined that 80db is right or too low? It may be possible to say "it doesn't bother me", "even with the bug output is good" but saying the bug doesn't exist is simply wrong.

So running the speakers large if they are capable of low bass and boosting the subwoofer level would compensate?
On the same line would setting the crossover to 40Hz would minimize the issue?
Mcguinn is offline  
post #12 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 08:34 AM
Advanced Member
 
tai4de2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: (near) Seattle
Posts: 618
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The thing that would alarm me the most is that the issue exists even when the player is set to bitstream. This says that there is no way to get a native PCM track out without the player putting its dirty paws on it to apply processing I'm specifically trying to avoid by using bitstreaming in the first place.

Does this imply that the player is applying bass management to native PCM tracks even when set to bitstream?

Do other players apply processing to a native PCM track when the player is set to bitstream? Maybe this is actually also part of the design bug in this player.
tai4de2 is offline  
post #13 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 08:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
thebland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan USA
Posts: 24,010
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 315 Post(s)
Liked: 164
So, if my understanding is correct...this only effects Uncompressed PCM soundtracks rather than those decoded to LPCM in the player (e.g. TRUE HD)?

I can't imagine this would be the case outputing LPCM from a TRUE HD soundtrack as then the player would be augmenting the signal...

My Home Theater of the Month- Le Petit Trianon

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
thebland is online now  
post #14 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

So, if my understanding is correct...this only effects Uncompressed PCM soundtracks rather than those decoded to LPCM in the player (e.g. TRUE HD)?

I can't imagine this would be the case outputing LPCM from a TRUE HD soundtrack as then the player would be augmenting the signal...

Not exactly. It doesn't matter what the SOURCE is. What matter is the OUTPUT. If the output is PCM then the signal is altered.

LPCM -> PCM = altered
DD -> decoded to PCM = altered
TrueHD -> decoded to PCM = altered
TrueHD -> bitstream = NOT ALTERED
DD -> bitstream = NOT ALTERED
namechamps is offline  
post #15 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcguinn View Post

So running the speakers large if they are capable of low bass and boosting the subwoofer level would compensate?

I don't like the term "large" because it can vary from AVR to AVR. If your AVR applies 0 bass management (i.e all sound from 20Hz to 20KHz on main channels is sent to main speakers). Then yes +5db on the subwoofer will compensate exactly because only the LFE is -5db and the sub is ONLY playing the LFE channel.

Quote:


On the same line would setting the crossover to 40Hz would minimize the issue?

All depends on the track (how much <40Hz signal in main channels) and it likely will vary from track to track.

I have my crosssovers set to 80Hz on all channels. I find a boost of "about 2-3db" is a good starting point.

The problem is that once bass management is applied any boost will vary from track to track and is a "best guess" only.

Panasonic & Denon need to fix this issue. An all digital mistake is easy to spot & fix. These are $500-$1000 players with digital output not $30 Daewoo with analog stereo out.
namechamps is offline  
post #16 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 10:21 AM
Toe
AVS Addicted Member
 
Toe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,263
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 541
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

So, if my understanding is correct...this only effects Uncompressed PCM soundtracks rather than those decoded to LPCM in the player (e.g. TRUE HD)?

I can't imagine this would be the case outputing LPCM from a TRUE HD soundtrack as then the player would be augmenting the signal...

Any PCM out of the player will be affected, including TrueHD>PCM, etc....

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
Toe is online now  
post #17 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 02:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

Both were confirmed by Roger Dressler from Dolby.

5db gain

Confirmation of LFE issue difficult to resolve

Others have tested as well. I wish we were making this up but no one is.

Your last comment was unnecesarry there are plenty of misinformation on these boards, I was simply looking for info here that has credibility which those from Roger qualifies as such, so thanks for the links.

sent via Morse code...........

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #18 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 02:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 49
What I don't get is, and Roger may explain this, it's obvious that Panasonic "corrupts" the signal but not by design but rather just a "mistake" somewhere, as I can't imagine this was done intentionally, so all they need is to "undo" the mistake. But so far there is no word what the source of the problem, only the symptoms. Now that Denon is reportedly has the same issue, it seems they just dressed up and re badged the BD30 and sell it for double. Not the first time they have done this, maybe to avoid the embarrassment, they lend a helping hand to Panasonic to solve this quickly? One can hope.

sent via Morse code...........

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #19 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 02:47 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,875
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Liked: 947
Some background: The PCM LFE signal is supposed to be 10dB down compared to the other PCM signals. It is recorded that way so that explosions and stuff can be carried in the LFE channel without clipping during transmission to the AVR and initial processing in the AVR. This is also true about analog LFE sent to an AVR over multi-channel analog connections. A properly designed AVR boosts the LFE back up the necessary 10dB before adding in any bass steered to the subwoofer from the main speakers and sending the combo out to the subwoofer.

If bass steering happens inside the player (prior to multi-channel analog output from a player equipped that way), then you have cases where the LFE is sent over to the AVR as 15dB down to account for the extra bass that may have been contributed from main speaker channels during that bass steering in the player. What it looks like is happening is that these particular players are dropping the LFE coming in off the disc that extra 5dB INCORRECTLY.

For more background on this whole LFE issue, see this thread from the Audio Theory forum here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748147

Note that the 10dB lower LFE, and the boosting of it back to normal in the AVR, is nothing new. It has been this way essentially forever in traditional DD5.1 and DTS for example.

When you send such a bitstream to the AVR, the LFE encoded within the bitstream is already 10dB down, but the AVR boosts it during the decode. Since these players are not decoding such bitstreams before sending them to the AVR, there is no place for them to make the mistake of dropping the LFE the erroneous, extra 5dB.

When you send PCM to the AVR the LFE is supposed to be 10dB down, and the AVR is supposed to boost it back up again prior to mixing with steered bass and sending the result to the subwoofer. But the AVR is not expecting an ADDITIONAL 5dB drop in the LFE coming from the player. Apparently these players are doing this both to raw PCM tracks and to PCM resulting from decoding bitstreams inside the player.

Depending upon the signal path architecture it may be easier or harder for them to eliminate this bogus 5dB drop.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #20 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 09:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:


Depending upon the signal path architecture it may be easier or harder for them to eliminate this bogus 5dB drop.

Well that's just it,the signal supposed to be untouched, if the secondary decoder is set to off. I don't even know why it even enters into the mixer as it's been stated, it really should just bypass everything....

sent via Morse code...........

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #21 of 183 Old 01-26-2008, 09:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:


If bass steering happens inside the player (prior to multi-channel analog output from a player equipped that way), then you have cases where the LFE is sent over to the AVR as 15dB down to account for the extra bass that may have been contributed from main speaker channels during that bass steering in the player. What it looks like is happening is that these particular players are dropping the LFE coming in off the disc that extra 5dB INCORRECTLY.

Yes that's one theory I was thinking about too. It's almost like the player's bass management is activated, which would yield the -15db output at least on the analog outputs, but it shouldn't affect the digital ones.One more reson why the digital signal shouldn't enter into ant DSP chip on board unless selected by the user.

sent via Morse code...........

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #22 of 183 Old 01-29-2008, 01:40 PM
Member
 
tmarques's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, I'm probably gonna ask a very dumb question, and I've read what was posted before... but the bistream part's still unclear to me.

I'm about to receive the BD30, and I've got a Yam3800 AVR.
I intend to connect them thru HDMI.

On my XE1, I can set the player to bitstream the sound thru HDMI, and have my Yammy decode it.

So if I got it right, I'll have the LFE issue on the BD30 if I use a HDMI cable? Regardless of a bitstream setting?

Cheers!

65VT30 / TX-NR1009 / Dune HD Smart D1 / PS3 / Xbox 360 / iPhone 4 (+iTach IP2IR)
tmarques is offline  
post #23 of 183 Old 01-29-2008, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmarques View Post

So if I got it right, I'll have the LFE issue on the BD30 if I use a HDMI cable? Regardless of a bitstream setting?

Yes. But ONLY on PCM tracks. PCM can't be sent via bitstream or decoded internally. PCM is already uncompressed audio. Regardless of the player setting (bitstream or decode) it is always sent as PCM.

DD bitstream = no bug
DTS bitstream = no bug
DD+ bitstream = no bug
TrueHD bitstream = no bug
DTS-HD bitstream = no bug

LPCM track (regardless of player setting) = LFE bug

DD decoded internally = LFE bug
DTS decoded internally = LFE bug

DD+ decoded internally = not possible on BD30
TrueHD decoded internally = not possible on BD30
DTS-HD decoded internally = not possible on BD30
namechamps is offline  
post #24 of 183 Old 01-29-2008, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehun View Post

Well that's just it,the signal supposed to be untouched, if the secondary decoder is set to off. I don't even know why it even enters into the mixer as it's been stated, it really should just bypass everything....

Likely a design "flaw". If the PCM can pass through mixer without being affected then "why" design another bypass mode. Obviously it isn't passing through the mixer with no effect but likely in the design it made sense ($$$) to not have a bypass mode where PCM "goes around the mixer".
namechamps is offline  
post #25 of 183 Old 01-29-2008, 02:02 PM
Member
 
tmarques's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Ok, thanks namechamps!

65VT30 / TX-NR1009 / Dune HD Smart D1 / PS3 / Xbox 360 / iPhone 4 (+iTach IP2IR)
tmarques is offline  
post #26 of 183 Old 01-29-2008, 04:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
thehun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wine country CA
Posts: 7,336
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 45 Post(s)
Liked: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by namechamps View Post

Likely a design "flaw". If the PCM can pass through mixer without being affected then "why" design another bypass mode. Obviously it isn't passing through the mixer with no effect but likely in the design it made sense ($$$) to not have a bypass mode where PCM "goes around the mixer".

They not designing another bypass mode, since there isn't one to begin with.
BTW if Toshiba could create such path with FW update, and by doing so turning the whole HD DVD platform upside down, Panasonic could have done this, much easier when they designed the player. But to be honest if it must enter into the mixer but comes out unchanged, I would settle for that too.

sent via Morse code...........

The Hun
thehun is offline  
post #27 of 183 Old 01-29-2008, 10:47 PM
cpc
AVS Club Gold
 
cpc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Toronto,ON,Canada
Posts: 7,504
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What if I am a stuborn person who sets all his speakers as LARGE?
cpc is offline  
post #28 of 183 Old 01-30-2008, 02:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Trackman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Sacramento,Ca., usa
Posts: 1,207
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
If I understand correctly, someone with a crossover at 120 can defeat the problem by setting the sub gain in the AVR to +5 as then all redirected bass is properly boosted?

Go Duke !
Trackman is offline  
post #29 of 183 Old 01-30-2008, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

If I understand correctly, someone with a crossover at 120 can defeat the problem by setting the sub gain in the AVR to +5 as then all redirected bass is properly boosted?

No. If the crossover is set to 120Hz then ALL bass below 120Hz gets redirected from the mains to the SW. +5db on the sub will make the LFE channel correct but now ALL the redirected bass is running 5db too hot.
namechamps is offline  
post #30 of 183 Old 01-30-2008, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
namechamps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpc View Post

What if I am a stuborn person who sets all his speakers as LARGE?

If you speakers are set to large (i.e no crossover in the AVR) then you can turn SW +5db on PCM tracks and back to normal for all other tracks and have proper output.

If the speakers are set to "small" then the redirected bass below the crossover gets sent to the SW which if boosted will be "too hot".
namechamps is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off