Is it in Microsoft's best interest to release a Blu-ray add-on? - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

got a link to that.

You that lazy? Goggle is your friend.

Here found one of many links in a google search in less then 1.3 seconds.
http://www.destructoid.com/ces-2008-...nk-63630.phtml

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post #92 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by anotheraviator View Post

YES! MS to should absolutely issue a Blu-ray add on.

Why?

Because right now (and even more so in the future) more and more consumers will be purchasing PS3 consoles strictly for their Blu-ray abilities. Many would have actually preferred an Xbox 360.

MS needs to prevent the PS3 from gaining popularity based strictly on the fact is plays Blu-ray movies and it's cheaper than any of the comparable stand alone players.

I hope they release a Blu-ray add-on next week and keep the PS3 in last place.

What have you got against the PS3?

However, I do agree with your reasoning as to why MS needs to put a bluray addon on the 360 and that would be to keep purchasers away from the PS3.

Blurays: 115
HD-DVD: 12- YES I will be keeping them so I can own a piece of history
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post #93 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Newbie View Post

Except there won't be anyone making them and there won't be any replication facilities.

There are ten times more replication facilities for HD DVD then there are for blue ray. By what you said then, How did ps3 have blue ray with no replication facilities? They were built for it at a huge investment would be the safest guess. HD DVD lines are in place and easy and cheap to convert. Not only that, but if HD DVD does "die" altogether then putting Xbox next games on it would kill the piracy market on their games then.

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post #94 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Hockeytown Fan View Post

There are ten times more replication facilities for HD DVD then there are for blue ray. By what you said then, How did ps3 have blue ray with no replication facilities? They were built for it at a huge investment would be the safest guess. HD DVD lines are in place and easy and cheap to convert. Not only that, but if HD DVD does "die" altogether then putting Xbox next games on it would kill the piracy market on their games then.

That's a lot of wishful thinking! Why would Toshiba help MS so much when MS was barely willing to lift a finger to help them? We all know that the HD-DVD add-on was there just to compete with the upcoming Blu-Ray PS3.
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post #95 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JE3146 View Post

Most consoles have using proprietary formats for as long as I can remember.

The three in exception (that I can recall) are the Xbox, the 360, and the PS2.

You forgot PS1 which used CD and PS3 which uses BD (the defacto HD optical media standard)

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With the ease of replication, I highly doubt an HD DVD drive in an Xbox 720(or whatever it will be called) would be all that hard to go with.

It makes absolutely no sense why MS would revert to a smaller capacity proprietary disk in favor of BD.

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15/30GB might be plenty for the nex-nex-gen. Hell they may do away with it and go with Flash cards.

IF games are distributed on physical media it will be on BD. Flash memory will never be cheaper than a pressed piece of plastic. Personally I think games will always be distributed on physical media as long as the console has to be sold at retail. I cannot see how shops would agree to basically be pimped out to sell the console which have miniscule to zero margins while Sony, MS, and N reap all the profits from software.
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post #96 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cynn View Post

Microsoft has already made it very clear that if the market demands it, they will support a Blu Ray add-on.



http://www.joystiq.com/2008/01/09/xb...d-hd-dvd-fail/

"Consumer choice" will end up meaning: "Damn! A lot of people are buying the PS3 just to play Blu Ray now that there's one main format!" PS3 sales WILL pick up due to the war ending and they WILL have to combat that unless a 2.0 Blu player comes in under the price of the PS3 sometime soon.

Perhaps they'll work with Toshiba to make it happen or maybe even Panasonic since they are a bigger holder than Sony in Blu. Samsung is a big MS partner as well so who knows?

Microsoft backed HDDVD because they liked it more and their tech was used as software. It was a good attack on Sony as well as Blu crippled the PS3 in year one (price) so it was a good move. Now they'll simply support Blu and move on. I doubt the next Xbox would include Holographic Versatile Disc or Terabyte drives.

A lot of X360 owners are HDTV owners. Now that there's one HD format, there's no confusion on where HD movies are going to come from. When these users get ready for movies in HD, there's only going to be one place to go for them. It's just bad business to let your competition have that large of a hand into your own pocket.

Does this really work though? PS3 sales might pick up as consumers buy it as a Blu-ray player, but the subsidies incurred for PS3 are based on being able to make back their money based on Game Sales -- not movie Sales.

Does anyone have the breakdown as far as how many games need to sell per PS3 to make up the subsidy over the life of the console? How about how many movies?

Historically, folks don't want to use their game console to watch optical discs. How many people still use the PS2 to watch movies? Of course, that's because standalone DVD players are way better than the PS2. Or is it simply that the PS3 will remain the best Blu-ray player on the market for many many years to come? and if that's the case, how do they make up the subsidy on those units that are movie players primarily or only?
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post #97 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiz33 View Post

Just to remind you that they are still $6+ billion in the hole on their whole console venture.

Accounting is funny in this way that much of that was already written down.

Besides, how many billions is Sony down on their Cell, Blu-ray, and Console venture? I'm pretty sure many many months ago it was something like $6 Billion just on Cell and PS3 alone ... and still counting.

It's not unheard of to take a loss on a product to gain entry and market share.
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post #98 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ottscay View Post

You think? I'm aware that they made their first two profitable quarters, but they promised shareholders a profitable year, and I doubt they got there. And that still doesn't touch the billions lost since inception (notice I said "Since inception" in my original post). They will probably outsell the PS3 in the US this year, but there is little hope in Europe and no hope in Japan. They will probably therefore fall short inn worldwide sales. With the Wii eating into the casual gamer market in the US, the price advantage of the 360 seems like less of a problem, and they still have issues making consoles that work 90% of the time.

Huh? They beat street.

And now there's only a 10% success rate on hardware?
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post #99 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Does this really work though? PS3 sales might pick up as consumers buy it as a Blu-ray player, but the subsidies incurred for PS3 are based on being able to make back their money based on Game Sales -- not movie Sales.

Does anyone have the breakdown as far as how many games need to sell per PS3 to make up the subsidy over the life of the console? How about how many movies?

Historically, folks don't want to use their game console to watch optical discs. How many people still use the PS2 to watch movies? Of course, that's because standalone DVD players are way better than the PS2. Or is it simply that the PS3 will remain the best Blu-ray player on the market for many many years to come? and if that's the case, how do they make up the subsidy on those units that are movie players primarily or only?

PS3 is already selling at little or no lost atm and is expected to be profitable during 2008. Sony's gaming division is still operating in the black overall despite losing about 3 billion on the PS3. Thank you for you concern. You attention may be better diverted against MS since their Gaming division is over 6 billion in red and shows no sign or ever recuperating.

History cannot predict the future. One look around this and many other forum will show you that there are a lot of people using the PS3 as a primary blu-ray player. I'm a gamer and even I have more BD movies than games. The PS3 is certainly one of the best player out there but better player will come later this year. Just in time for the PS3 to revert to a kick ass game console since a lot of system seller titles are due this year.
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post #100 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Accounting is funny in this way that much of that was already written down.

Besides, how many billions is Sony down on their Cell, Blu-ray, and Console venture? I'm pretty sure many many months ago it was something like $6 Billion just on Cell and PS3 alone ... and still counting.

It's not unheard of to take a loss on a product to gain entry and market share.

Thank you for your concern but Sony's gaming division is still well in the black overall despite losing about 3 billion on the PS3. PS3 is already selling at little or no lost at the moment and is expected to be profitable later this year.
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post #101 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:33 PM
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I don't know if Microsoft will create a blu-ray add-on for the 360, but I sure hope they do. I bought an HD-A1 back in May of '06, followed by the 360 in November of the same year. Two of the best purchases I've made in a long time, besides my projectors.

My family and I love playing games together and watching movies together, but I really don't want to buy a PS3 just to watch movies. An add-on would be perfect. So, I am one of those buyers that Microsoft could keep from moving to the PS3 option (because from all my reading, it's not only the best buy in pure dollars and cents, but has had less of a problem with compatibility issues with movies and should be 2.0 compliant).

I know my HD-DVD movies are not going anywhere, but the future is looking blu at this time (I have been watching 720P films from Xbox live, but that is a temporary solution).
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post #102 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiz33 View Post

Thank you for your concern but Sony's gaming division is still well in the black overall despite losing about 3 billion on the PS3. PS3 is already selling at little or no lost at the moment and is expected to be profitable later this year.

I thought both the PS3 and Microsoft Gaming divisions were now in the black. Quite true about them taking a beating historically though.

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2008/01...ng-the-profit/
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post #103 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiz33 View Post

PS3 is already selling at little or no lost atm and is expected to be profitable during 2008. Sony's gaming division is still operating in the black overall despite losing about 3 billion on the PS3. Thank you for you concern. You attention may be better diverted against MS since their Gaming division is over 6 billion in red and shows no sign or ever recuperating.

You're not really making much sense here ... you're adding all the losses from Xbox 1 into a cumulative $6 Billion figure, but then ignore all the subsidies for Blu-ray and Cell in your calculations for Sony's PS3 numbers? The gaming division can easily operate in the Black of the money they're bleeding on the Cell is written off in another division. It's disingenous to look narrowly at one business unit and ignore the others that are dependencies of the first.

Oh, and where does anything read that PS3 is selling at very little loss? and how do you figure that the PS3 is going to be profitable in 2008 is you factor in 3 Billion in losses that need to also be made up? You see, you can't have it both ways. You can't ignore previous losses for PS3 and those of it's components and then add up every loss Microsoft has ever incurred in their gaming division and try to make a valid comparison. It simply doesn't work; not to mention it makes your debate points lack credibility.

Besides, again, you're taking Xbox-1 and Xbox 360 and adding those figures to come up with $6 Billion, and yet you're saying the PS3 'only' lost 3 Billion on PS3? If you add that to the Billions on Cell, and the numbers for Sony's losses in *ONE* Generation easily eclipse was Microsoft has lost over *TWO* Generations of console.

Microsoft as a company posts positive/net surplusses every year, Sony does not.

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History cannot predict the future. One look around this and many other forum will show you that there are a lot of people using the PS3 as a primary blu-ray player.

A lot of people used the PS2 as a DVD player it's first few years on the market too. Not to mention that this is a problem for Sony. Game console subsidies are accepted in the industry because the profits made on game sales allow for this to be made up. How many movies need to sell per PS3 to make up for the subsidy? 20? 30?

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I'm a gamer and even I have more BD movies than games. The PS3 is certain one of the best player out there but better player will come later this year. Just in time for the PS3 to revert to a kick ass game console since a lot of system seller titles are due this year.

And I'd be willing to take a shot and say that many of the movies you have in Blu-ray were acquired at no cost via BOGO's. We have no idea what better players will be released this year, if any. And we have no idea if those System Seller titles will actually be released this year, and if in fact they are system sellers to begin with.
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post #104 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:46 PM
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If they release a Blu Ray drive, they just point to the fact that the PS3 has a very desirable feature out of the box that they don't have.
If you end up spending more for the 360 plus Blu Ray add on than you spend for a PS3 that's a really good way of telling the consumer that PS3 is the better deal.
Microsoft should market and expand their marketplace downloads. They're mostly just available in the US, but that's about the only market they're doing really well in anyway. They need a price cut and then to play to their strengths which is being cheaper console, primarily for gaming but with extended download features.
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post #105 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiz33 View Post

Thank you for your concern but Sony's gaming division is still well in the black overall despite losing about 3 billion on the PS3. PS3 is already selling at little or no lost at the moment and is expected to be profitable later this year.

Read my previous response to this. You're not making any sense. In your own post, you told us that the PS3 is selling at very little to no loss atm (which I don't think is correct, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt here and say PS3 is break even right now, today.).

That means they in the next 10 months, Sony needs to drop their costs significantly (approx $100 per unit) and keep the cost of PS3 at $400 in order to make up just those 3 Billion dollars you're speaking of.

If they could make $100 per console, right now, they'd have to sell 30 million units just to break even. Considering they're stuggling to sell 300k per month, I think that's a very very far stretch -- especially if you want to also argue that PS3 price cuts are coming.

btw, Microsoft makes money on every Console they sell, right now, today ... and they've been doing so for quite some time.
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post #106 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

You're not really making much sense here ... you're adding all the losses from Xbox 1 into a cumulative $6 Billion figure, but then ignore all the subsidies for Blu-ray and Cell in your calculations for Sony's PS3 numbers? The gaming division can easily operate in the Black of the money they're bleeding on the Cell is written off in another division. It's disingenous to look narrowly at one business unit and ignore the others that are dependencies of the first.

Oh, and where does anything read that PS3 is selling at very little loss? and how do you figure that the PS3 is going to be profitable in 2008 is you factor in 3 Billion in losses that need to also be made up? You see, you can't have it both ways. You can't ignore previous losses for PS3 and those of it's components and then add up every loss Microsoft has ever incurred in their gaming division and try to make a valid comparison. It simply doesn't work; not to mention it makes your debate points lack credibility.

Besides, again, you're taking Xbox-1 and Xbox 360 and adding those figures to come up with $6 Billion, and yet you're saying the PS3 'only' lost 3 Billion on PS3? Plus the Billions on Cell, and the numbers easily eclipse was Microsoft has lost over *TWO* Generations of console.

Microsoft as a company posts positive/net surplusses every year, Sony does not.



A lot of people used the PS2 as a DVD player it's first few years on the market too. Not to mention that this is a problem for Sony. Game console subsidies are accepted in the industry because the profits made on game sales allow for this to be made up. How many movies need to sell per PS3 to make up for the subsidy? 20? 30?



And I'd be willing to take a shot and say that many of the movies you have in Blu-ray were acquired at no cost via BOGO's. We have no idea what better players will be released this year, if any. And we have no idea if those System Seller titles will actually be released this year, and if in fact they are system sellers to begin with.

Do some research before you open your mouth and stick your foot in it. Guess who makes the Cell processor for Sony? TOSHIBA, yea you read right! F**King TOSHIBA makes the cell processor for Sony and you think they are selling it to Sony at a lost? Also, cost of a PS3 have been discuss to death by many indy industry sources as the component pricing is well known.

All number is since inception. MS's is 6+ billion in the hole even though the 360 is finally selling at a profit so they make money on the book last quarter. Sony's gaming division is still well in the black despite losing 3 billion on the PS3 because unlike MS losing over 4 billion just on the original Xbox, the PS1, PS2 and even the PSP actually made them tons of money.

System seller for the PS3 this year. MGS4, GT prologue maybe GT5 and FFXIII if they come out in 2008. EA already came out and said they expect PS3 to sell more than 360 this year and so has many industries sources.

PS/ The only BOGO BD movies that I have is the first 4 harry potter from Amazon. Other BD i own includes Planet Earth, Bladerunner ultimate collection limited edition, Casino Royale and about 15 others.
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post #107 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiz33 View Post

Do some research before you open your mouth and stick your foot in it.

I love when people say this, and then go on to say............

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Guess who makes the Cell processor for Sony? TOSHIBA, yea you read right! F**King TOSHIBA makes the cell processor for Sony and you think they are selling it to Sony at a lost?

Ummm, you do realize Toshiba alone does not "make" the Cell processor for the PS3 right? I hate to break this to you, and it's odd that someone doesn't know this, but IBM and Sony both have stake in the Cell as well as Toshiba.

In fact reports were that Sony was going to sell their part of Cell manufacturing to Toshiba, but that has yet to happen AFAIK, unless I just passed over the news article that confirmed it happened.

So your notion that "F**King TOSHIBA makes the cell processor for Sony" is very much a false statement.


Quote:
Also, cost of a PS3 have been discuss to death by many indy industry sources as the component pricing is well known.

So it the fact that PS3's are still selling at a loss, more than just a little. That is pretty well known and easily obtainable information. Sony THINKS the PS3 will one day be profitable, but it ain't here yet.

Quote:
All number is since inception. MS's is 6+ billion in the hole even though the 360 is finally selling at a profit so they make money on the book last quarter.

You know the Entertainment division at Microsoft is more than just the 360 right? You know it's Games for Windows, and Zune, and Microsoft TV, and HD DVD/HDi, and such? Funny how the Xbox 360 is actually what's turning profit and reversing loss in that division.

And let's not pretend that that 6 Billion (which I am not even sure is accurate) isn't covered by other divisions of Microsoft.

Quote:
Sony's gaming division is still well in the black despite losing 3 billion on the PS3 because unlike MS losing over 4 billion just on the original Xbox, the PS1, PS2 and even the PSP actually made them tons of money.

O'rly?? Because I keep seeing articles like this:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...rate-neck.html
"Sony earnings: games division a financial albatross around corporate neck"

"For the fourth quarter alone, analysts believe that Sony will post a ¥75.8 billion yen ($630 million) loss, up from ¥66.5 billion a year earlier. For the fiscal year that ended on March 31, 2007, Sony is reporting ¥71.8 billion in operating profits ($597.09 million), down from ¥226.42 billion ($1.88 billion) from fiscal year 2006. That's a huge drop, even for a company with as many interests in Sony. The problem lies with the PlayStation 3: GamesIndustry is reporting that the games division is operating at a ¥232.3 billion deficit for the fiscal year."


If you are making it out to be that Sony's game division has been in the black and absorbed the losses on the Playstation 3, you would be incorrect.


Quote:
System seller for the PS3 this year. MGS4, GT prologue maybe GT5 and FFXIII if they come out in 2008. EA already came out and said they expect PS3 to sell more than 360 this year and so has many industries sources.

Awesome. PS3 has some good games coming out. But we keep coming back to "Well, just wait until game X comes out". Then game X comes out and the PS3 can't outsell the 360. It took a console shortage even this month to outsell the 360, and could only do it by 40,000 units.

BTW, System seller for the 360 this year: Ninja Gaiden 2, Too Human, Alan Wake, Banjo 3 (which will be out this year).

Both systems have their AAA games coming in '08.
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post #108 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 04:59 PM
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yea, the cell processor was a joint venture by Toshiba, Sony, and IBM even though Sony is trying to sell their part of the pie. However, I was under the impression that as of late last year Sony was making a profit on every 40 GB PS3 (this is even after the $100 drop). They were still losing some money on the 80 GB version and that is one reason that it has been phased out. Apparently the move to 65 nanometers is a profit bringer (the 80 GB was 90 nm). Correct me if I Am wrong but I recall reading this on several sites.
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post #109 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capablanca View Post

yea, the cell processor was a joint venture by Toshiba, Sony, and IBM even though Sony is trying to sell their part of the pie. However, I was under the impression that as of late last year Sony was making a profit on every 40 GB PS3 (this is even after the $100 drop). They were still losing some money on the 80 GB version and that is one reason that it has been phased out. Apparently the move to 65 nanometers is a profit bringer (the 80 GB was 90 nm). Correct me if I Am wrong but I recall reading this on several sites.

Not quite. They simply did some restructuring. The 40GB still posts a loss, just not as much:

http://play.tm/wire/click/1713451


Sony's own Kaz Hirai is hoping to hit profitability on the PS3 this year:

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=31892

"Costs are falling, but Sony won't make solid commitment

Sony's Kaz Hirai has said that the company hopes the next fiscal year will see the PlayStation 3 console business achieve a profit.

Speaking at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas Hirai said that profitability in the 2008 financial year was not a definite commitment, but something the company was striving for."


They still have a little ways to go.
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post #110 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Mullis View Post

I love when people say this, and then go on to say............



Ummm, you do realize Toshiba alone does not "make" the Cell processor for the PS3 right? I hate to break this to you, and it's odd that someone doesn't know this, but IBM and Sony both have stake in the Cell as well as Toshiba.

In fact reports were that Sony was going to sell their part of Cell manufacturing to Toshiba, but that has yet to happen AFAIK, unless I just passed over the news article that confirmed it happened.

So your notion that "F**King TOSHIBA makes the cell processor for Sony" is very much a false statement.




So it the fact that PS3's are still selling at a loss, more than just a little. That is pretty well known and easily obtainable information. Sony THINKS the PS3 will one day be profitable, but it ain't here yet.



You know the Entertainment division at Microsoft is more than just the 360 right? You know it's Games for Windows, and Zune, and Microsoft TV, and HD DVD/HDi, and such? Funny how the Xbox 360 is actually what's turning profit and reversing loss in that division.

And let's not pretend that that 6 Billion (which I am not even sure is accurate) isn't covered by other divisions of Microsoft.



O'rly?? Because I keep seeing articles like this:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...rate-neck.html
"Sony earnings: games division a financial albatross around corporate neck"

"For the fourth quarter alone, analysts believe that Sony will post a ¥75.8 billion yen ($630 million) loss, up from ¥66.5 billion a year earlier. For the fiscal year that ended on March 31, 2007, Sony is reporting ¥71.8 billion in operating profits ($597.09 million), down from ¥226.42 billion ($1.88 billion) from fiscal year 2006. That's a huge drop, even for a company with as many interests in Sony. The problem lies with the PlayStation 3: GamesIndustry is reporting that the games division is operating at a ¥232.3 billion deficit for the fiscal year."


If you are making it out to be that Sony's game division has been in the black and absorbed the losses on the Playstation 3, you would be incorrect.




Awesome. PS3 has some good games coming out. But we keep coming back to "Well, just wait until game X comes out". Then game X comes out and the PS3 can't outsell the 360. It took a console shortage even this month to outsell the 360, and could only do it by 40,000 units.

BTW, System seller for the 360 this year: Ninja Gaiden 2, Too Human, Alan Wake, Banjo 3 (which will be out this year).

Both systems have their AAA games coming in '08.

Wow another person opening their mouth without checking fact. Toshiba owns as much of the plant as Sony and IBM and you think the other two partner will let them buy the cell below cost? Toshiba already took over the operating of the plant and they are already using the Cell processor in their NEW HDTV lineup that they showed at CES this year.
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post #111 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

btw, Microsoft makes money on every Console they sell, right now, today ... and they've been doing so for quite some time.

I think you oversimplified things with this statement. If I make a profit on hardware and then lose money on a warranty, what then? MS might not lose money per sale (speculation), but they had to eat $1.15B due to RRoD, so they will be in the red for a while. BTW MS did not make money until Halo 3 quarter, so how can they be making much money on hardware "for quite some time"?

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they probably have their hands full with vista right now.
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post #113 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:30 PM
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Do some research before you open your mouth and stick your foot in it. Guess who makes the Cell processor for Sony? TOSHIBA, yea you read right! F**King TOSHIBA makes the cell processor for Sony and you think they are selling it to Sony at a lost? Also, cost of a PS3 have been discuss to death by many indy industry sources as the component pricing is well known.

Uhm, Sony just sold their Cell Business to Toshiba (or is in the process of doing so ... did this ever close?). The Cell was a joint venture between IBM, Sony, and Toshiba. Sony's portion of the losses of Cell development along with PS3 were $6+ Billion months ago, and are likely much higher now.

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All number is since inception. MS's is 6+ billion in the hole even though the 360 is finally selling at a profit so they make money on the book last quarter. Sony's gaming division is still well in the black despite losing 3 billion on the PS3 because unlike MS losing over 4 billion just on the original Xbox, the PS1, PS2 and even the PSP actually made them tons of money.

You're comparing apples to corn flakes. Using your very own numbers here, Microsoft has lost 2 Billion on Xbox 360 over the last 2+ years while Sony, in a year, has already lost 3 Billion on PS3 in bit more than a year. So clearly Sony is hemmoraging way more cash here than Microsoft is, and at a faster rate. Nevermind that that $4 Billion for Xbox-1 would have been written down years ago. Your logic simply doesn't work ... it's not how accounting and business works.

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System seller for the PS3 this year. MGS4, GT prologue maybe GT5 and FFXIII if they come out in 2008.

Ohhh ... so there's a lot of 'maybe if they come out' titles here. GT5 and FFXIII likely won't be seen until 2009 somewhere, so that leaves you with MGS4 and GT Prologue -- again, maybe.

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EA already came out and said they expect PS3 to sell more than 360 this year and so has many industries sources.

Worldwide, month over month, perhaps. I don't think anyone is expecting them to close the gap. It'd take a long long time to make up 10 million consoles at the rate of 40k per month.

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PS/ The only BOGO BD movies that I have is the first 4 harry potter from Amazon. Other BD i own includes Planet Earth, Bladerunner ultimate collection limited edition, Casino Royale and about 15 others.

So I stand corrected here ... you have way more movies than games. Interesting that you consider yourself a gamer first yet your collection is skewed in this way.
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post #114 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Wiz33 View Post

Wow another person opening their mouth without checking fact. Toshiba owns as much of the plant as Sony and IBM and you think the other two partner will let them buy the cell below cost? Toshiba already took over the operating of the plant and they are already using the Cell processor in their NEW HDTV lineup that they showed at CES this year.

Well then, that pretty much confirms you have no idea what you're talking about. Thanks for joining us though.

First you tell us Toshiba makes the Cell for Sony, then you tell us that Sony and IBM own as much of the plant as Toshiba does. Then you tell us Toshiba took over operating of the plant.

According to this article, here:

http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/fe...a/70925/?biz=1

Sony has dropped $1.7 Billion on Cell for PS3 alone, and that was only through March 2007. It's almost been a full year since then. There was an article in the news thread awhile back ... I think mikemorel posted it, noting something like a total of $6 Billion in losses (and counting) on PS3 and Cell for Sony up to that point in time.

Back OT:

Knowing all of this, why would Microsoft want to help Sony's business model and gaming platform by producing a Blu-ray add-on? They'd have to sell it at a profit, so don't expect any $199's here imo. And all of this for a niche market. If the HD DVD Add On sales are anything to go by, then we're looking at a few hundred thousand units sold, at best. Why would they bother? Unless Sony wants to subsidize that player for them too.
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post #115 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tgable View Post

I think you oversimplified things with this statement. If I make a profit on hardware and then lose money on a warranty, what then? MS might not lose money per sale (speculation), but they had to eat $1.15B due to RRoD, so they will be in the red for a while. BTW MS did not make money until Halo 3 quarter, so how can they be making much money on hardware "for quite some time"?

The Extended Warranty monies were written down last FY IIRC.

My point, however, is that it simply cannot go both ways. If we're going to take Microsoft's past write downs on the platform, then we also have to take Sony's past write downs on the platform (Cell and Blu-ray R&D inclusive) -- and that's not how these big companies annouce their numbers. If Microsoft went into the black on the Xbox 360 back in 3Q07, that puts us at almost 8 months of profitability per unit.
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post #116 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 05:58 PM
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they probably have their hands full with vista right now.

Vista sales appear strong ... and is one reason credited for Microsoft not only beating street, but for raising forecasts.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1201...googlenews_wsj

Oh, and they also cited Holiday Xbox 360 sales as well.

Again though, let's shift this back on topic. With all of this information now available, it don't think it necessarily makes sense for them to release a Blu-ray add on for the console.

Put another way: If they do this, they have two options:

(1) Sell it for a profit. If they do this, the combined cost of Xbox 360 + Blu-ray Add-On is likely going to be way more than the cost of PS3. That would be a PR nightmare for Microsoft and Sony and the BDA would release so much spin and press that we'd be dizzy for months if not years.

(2) Subsidize the cost of the player to keep the bundle competitive. If they do this, they'd actually be *losing* money to help their competition?
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post #117 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 06:06 PM
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jdg, I wouldn't even waste anymore time with Wiz. It is more than apparent that he has no clue what he's talking about, and honestly I don't know where he even gets his incorrect info from.

And to my knowledge, Sony has not completed the sale of the Cell manufacturing plant to Toshiba (although how could Sony have Cell manufacturing plants if Toshiba makes the Cell? ). I've seen plenty of news articles on the rumor they were in talks, but nothing I see has been finalized yet.
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post #118 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Vista sales appear strong ... and is one reason credited for Microsoft not only beating street, but for raising forecasts.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1201...googlenews_wsj

Oh, and they also cited Holiday Xbox 360 sales as well.

Again though, let's shift this back on topic. With all of this information now available, it don't think it necessarily makes sense for them to release a Blu-ray add on for the console.

Put another way: If they do this, they have two options:

(1) Sell it for a profit. If they do this, the combined cost of Xbox 360 + Blu-ray Add-On is likely going to be way more than the cost of PS3. That would be a PR nightmare for Microsoft and Sony and the BDA would release so much spin and press that we'd be dizzy for months if not years.

(2) Subsidize the cost of the player to keep the bundle competitive. If they do this, they'd actually be *losing* money to help their competition?

Let me make a prediction just so you'll quote me on one of your many prolific posts. I will not go as far as EA Sports and predict that the PS3 will outsell the 360 for 2008. I will predict this however: 1) if MS doesn't add a BD add-on, 2) when the PS3 drops another $100, 3) and when Blu-Ray starts to roll (in about a year), the PS3 will begin to outsell the 360 whether there is a "shortage" or not. IMHO in 2009 we will see this come to fruition.
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post #119 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 06:15 PM
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Blu ray Xbox 360 Planned By Microsoft

By David Richards | Monday | 18/02/2008

Rumours were circulating today that Microsoft is set to dump HD DVD and bring out a Blu ray Xbox 360 by as early as May 2008. The move will allow the Company to go head to head with the Sony PS3 gaming console which has been credited with being one of the main reasons that retailers have preferred Blu ray over Toshiba's HD DVD.

Insiders at Microsoft in the USA have told SmartHouse that Microsoft have already configured a standalone Blu ray player that can be connected into an Xbox 360 and that subject to internal marketing and sales approvals the model could be on sale within 3 months.

The Company has also been working on a built in Blu ray player however insiders are claiming that Microsoft see the HD format battle moving online with consumers offered 1080p movie and content files as a download as opposed to having to buy a HD or Blu ray DVD.


The Company has also held discussions with several OEM manufacturers of media centres with nearly all of them telling the software Company that they are set to move to Blu ray configured Media Centres within the next month.

The Company VP of marketing Brian Paper said that Niveus had received support from Microsoft and Intel when implementing HD DVD. The format wasn't pushed on Niveus, he said, adding that the commitment in both Intel and Microsoft "isn't religious For HD DVD".


smarthouse.com.au/Gaming/Console/J7L7H2R4 {cant post direct link cause Im a newbie}

just wanted to add this to the discussion I guess.....course it is only a rumor.....guess we will see.....
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post #120 of 215 Old 02-17-2008, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by tgable View Post

I think you oversimplified things with this statement. If I make a profit on hardware and then lose money on a warranty, what then? MS might not lose money per sale (speculation), but they had to eat $1.15B due to RRoD, so they will be in the red for a while. BTW MS did not make money until Halo 3 quarter, so how can they be making much money on hardware "for quite some time"?

I thought that Billion dollars was earmarked (charged to earnings) but not already spent money. I would imagine as that number fluctuates they will adjust their earnings report. On this I could be totally wrong.

As for the Xbox 360 making profit, the Pro console itself actually began making a profit on it before November. In fact, it may have been as far back as last November:

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155499

Although I am thinking it was more along the lines of early to mid-2007. They were making money on the hardware then, but remember too the Entertainment division also had everything else wrapped up in it, and the whole division was down.
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