Is it in Microsoft's best interest to release a Blu-ray add-on? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 02:35 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Thezlog View Post

I still think MS did the right thing by having the hd-dvd as an expansion instead of ootb Bluray player like Sony did.

It was impossible for the 360 to include a working HD-DVD drive in the box. It didn't work yet. I agree that it was smarter to launch a year early rather than wait a year for the drive, because then they would have included the dead format AND they would have lost their year head start.
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post #182 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by HariSeldon View Post

What the heck? Why would the add on need to connect differently? Blu-Ray has a max bitrate for audio/video of 54mbps. The article you just just posted via the quote from jiffylush says USB2.0 has a effective bitrate of 320mbps! What math did you learn where 320 is not more than 54? USB2.0 is a fine interface for a Blu-Ray add on if Microsoft made one.

There are bandwidth limitations in box.
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post #183 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by HariSeldon View Post

What the heck? Why would the add on need to connect differently? Blu-Ray has a max bitrate for audio/video of 54mbps. The article you just just posted via the quote from jiffylush says USB2.0 has a effective bitrate of 320mbps! What math did you learn where 320 is not more than 54? USB2.0 is a fine interface for a Blu-Ray add on if Microsoft made one.

There are bandwidth limitations in box IIRC.
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post #184 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 03:53 PM
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Just because USB2.0 CAN do 320mbps doesn't mean it does.

There is ALWAYS the "potential" and then the "likely" numbers.

It's been this way in almost everything computer.

Wireless speed, internet, cables, etc

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post #185 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dpe8598 View Post

It was impossible for the 360 to include a working HD-DVD drive in the box. It didn't work yet. I agree that it was smarter to launch a year early rather than wait a year for the drive, because then they would have included the dead format AND they would have lost their year head start.

It's highly likely that if the Xbox 360 had an internal HD DVD drive and the year head start, HD DVD would be way ahead of Blu-ray in terms of disc sales. It's silly to presume that they would have included the 'dead format' if there were that many more players out there. I mean, even as the underdog, they managed a 60:40 split -- and that with software being given away for free all over the place and the content being skewed about that much as well.
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post #186 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 04:00 PM
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I have the HD-A1 and also a Xbox 360.

I want to see how many other Xbox 360 owners would buy a Blu-ray addon for the 360 if one was produced.

I for one would.

Mods, if this is in wrong area please move.Thanks.

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post #187 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 04:02 PM
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Topics merged.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #188 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

Just because USB2.0 CAN do 320mbps doesn't mean it does.

There is ALWAYS the "potential" and then the "likely" numbers.

It's been this way in almost everything computer.

Wireless speed, internet, cables, etc

320mpbs WAS the "likely" number if you read that link. 480mpbs was the "potential" number. In any case, Blu-Ray audio/video max is 54mbps. If there is a Blu-Ray add on for the 360 it can almost certainly use the USB port just like the HD-DVD add on did. The whole notion that it couldn't was probably started by ps3 fans wanting to sling mud on the 360 and the idea of a Blu-Ray add-on anyway.
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post #189 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 06:38 PM
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If MSFT wants to stay competitive with PS3, they will have to come up with something. Technically, it is not hard to do. Financially, with their muscle, they can may be get a $150 price tag on it.

Basically, with PS3 you get a killer gaming machine _and_ a future-proof BD player (or, at this point, we can call it High Definition player).

As long as MSFT can not say same about Xbox , they will suffer, loosing customers to Sony.
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post #190 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rashid11 View Post

If MSFT wants to stay competitive with PS3, they will have to come up with something. Technically, it is not hard to do. Financially, with their muscle, they can may be get a $150 price tag on it.
customers to Sony.

A microsoft subsidized blu-ray player running java technology. If that happened, I think I would have to buy one just to hang on my wall of oddities next to the picture of the two-headed goat.
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post #191 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 07:38 PM
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MS have said they will back whatever format wins, next generation xbox will have bluray games when they should truly be needed.
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post #192 of 215 Old 02-18-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by compscott View Post

MS have said they will back whatever format wins, next generation xbox will have bluray games when they should truly be needed.

This I actually don't believe will be the case at all. Making a Blu-Ray drive for playing Blu-Ray movies is one thing. Microsoft doesn't make the discs for Blu-Ray movies so they don't have pay any licensing fees on the movies people will buy to use with the drive. But they do make the discs for 360 games. I don't see them paying royalty fees to their main competition in the gaming world for producing their own games. Nor do I see them putting the Blu-Ray drive in the console as again they would be paying royalty fees to Sony and the Blu-Ray crowd in that case as well. HD-DVD is dead for movies, but nothing is stopping Microsoft from using it as the format for the next generation xBox's games. That drive would be in the system, and it could play DVD's obviously, and maybe even as a little bonus it could play the HD-DVD's the neighbor is selling at a garage sale for $.50
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post #193 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rashid11 View Post

If MSFT wants to stay competitive with PS3, they will have to come up with something. Technically, it is not hard to do. Financially, with their muscle, they can may be get a $150 price tag on it.

Basically, with PS3 you get a killer gaming machine _and_ a future-proof BD player (or, at this point, we can call it High Definition player).

As long as MSFT can not say same about Xbox , they will suffer, loosing customers to Sony.

Please man. MS doesn't need BD to stay competitive. This is a gaming console and though having an HD movie player with a gaming console is nice, it won't stop people from buying it. Sony spent way too much time on BD and they are suffering, regardless if they sold more consoles in January than MS. No matter what you or anyone else feels about Microsoft, don't underestimate them. They have a lot of money and a lot of power to do and buy what they want. I really don't think MS cared if HD-DVD won, to be honest. For them, it was all about giving the customer the choice and going with the winner of this format war.
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post #194 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 12:58 AM
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Posted it before. Im glad the way MS approached the format war. They can still decide if they want a blu expansion or not. I just want whats worth buying to come out on dvd and hd(probably not much left coming now) and blu that will help me further my collection. I still want Exosquad from Universal so they have no excuse now not to produce it on any format.
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post #195 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 01:18 AM
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To me it just makes no sense for MS to make a Blu-ray add-on. Nobody *really* wants to use a video game system to watch movies. Only if it makes the most economic sense. And since there are already cheaper Blu-ray stand alone players than the PS3 (well kinda, prices have certainly shot up since the Warner announcement) and there are bound to be new models at even lower prices, I don't see any reason for MS to create one.

Now, if they can somehow make one where the combined cost of the 360 and the add-on is the same or less than the PS3, then it would make sense. Otherwise no.

Personally, I would think MS is rooting against Blu-ray and hoping that it gets relegated to niche status. They're only likely to make an add-on if they feel that not doing so would endanger their lead in the console war.
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post #196 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 01:24 AM
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To me it just makes no sense for MS to make a Blu-ray add-on. Nobody *really* wants to use a video game system to watch movies.

Speak for yourself It makes perfect sense to me and I think it will be suicide for MS (in terms of the 360) not to do so. I have two 360 consoles - one used for gaming and the other as an HD DVD player. I now want a blu-ray add-on to get blu-ray capabilities and would prefer that over another console (ie PS3) or stand-alone player. I do actually have a PS3 as well, but that is used for gaming only. I have seperate rooms for games and movies.

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post #197 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 04:22 AM
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If the price of 360 + bluray add on is more than a PS3 then you won't be stealing sales from Sony. If however the goal is to prevent current owners from purchasing a PS3 then it would make sense however it has to be affordable and work flawlessly.

Imagine if the add on had issues? there would be hell to pay on forums everywhere.
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post #198 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 04:56 AM
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It is semi-official: MSFT will release BD drive for Xbox 360, just waiting on marketing to get their act together.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10749

Quote:

Another possible alternative for Microsoft would be to offer a Blu-ray Disc add-on to open the Xbox 360 to the ability of playing both formats. Smarthouse cited supposed insiders at Microsoft saying that a Blu-ray Disc peripheral for the Xbox 360 is pending marketing and sales approvals.
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post #199 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rashid11 View Post

It is semi-official: MSFT will release BD drive for Xbox 360, just waiting on marketing to get their act together.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10749

Quote:

Another possible alternative for Microsoft would be to offer a Blu-ray Disc add-on to open the Xbox 360 to the ability of playing both formats. Smarthouse cited supposed insiders at Microsoft saying that a Blu-ray Disc peripheral for the Xbox 360 is pending marketing and sales approvals.

This is all going back to the Smarthouse article though.

I guess Microsoft could subsidize the Blu-ray AO, costing them money, and then drop the price of the Xbox 360 console, costing them money, and do a bunch of R&D and pay royalties to sun for Java, costing them money ... all so they can have a Blu-ray drive add on.

Or, they can just let consumers that want to watch movies go out and spend $400 on a PS3 (which costs Sony money), which likely won't be used for games (since the consumer demographic already has a 360) (which means Sony will have a hard time making up their subsidy on royalties) ... all of which maintains 360's price advantage and profits intact.

Or, they can just let consumres that want to watch movies buy a standalone Blu-ray player.

Now, considering Microsoft's stance has been that a Standalone Toshiba is a better option for playing HD DVD movies, why would they all of a sudden suggest that a Blu-ray Add-On is a better solution to PS3?

This needs to be subsidized, or it's going to cost more than PS3 and create a PR firestorm (remember the Sony marketing materials sent to retail adding up costs that showed Xbox 360 was more than a $600 PS3?).

It doesn't make sense for Microsoft to lose money to push a format they don't need ... so unless someone else picks up the tab, I think we have status quo and an acceleration towards digital downloads.
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post #200 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by HariSeldon View Post

This I actually don't believe will be the case at all. Making a Blu-Ray drive for playing Blu-Ray movies is one thing. Microsoft doesn't make the discs for Blu-Ray movies so they don't have pay any licensing fees on the movies people will buy to use with the drive. But they do make the discs for 360 games. I don't see them paying royalty fees to their main competition in the gaming world for producing their own games. Nor do I see them putting the Blu-Ray drive in the console as again they would be paying royalty fees to Sony and the Blu-Ray crowd in that case as well. HD-DVD is dead for movies, but nothing is stopping Microsoft from using it as the format for the next generation xBox's games. That drive would be in the system, and it could play DVD's obviously, and maybe even as a little bonus it could play the HD-DVD's the neighbor is selling at a garage sale for $.50

I thought the same thing ... but it looks like Toshiba is pulling the plug universally (except with Notebooks, for now). They haven't decided what they're doing with the Aomori plant yet ... but it certainly makes this option seem less likely. There is always the option for VMD though, or some other proprietary data tech they can get on the cheap.

I did like this part of their release though:

Quote:


"While we are disappointed for the company and more importantly, for the consumer, the real mass market opportunity for high definition content remains untapped and Toshiba is both able and determined to use our talent, technology and intellectual property to make digital convergence a reality.”

Perhaps along with "Movies on DeNAND", they're going to pursue "Games on DeNAND". That would certainly take care of all the scratch issues. They'd just need to get cost at volume down below what Blu-ray replication costs.
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post #201 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by korg View Post

If the price of 360 + bluray add on is more than a PS3 then you won't be stealing sales from Sony. If however the goal is to prevent current owners from purchasing a PS3 then it would make sense however it has to be affordable and work flawlessly.

Right, it has to be less, which means someone needs to subsidize it if Microsoft were to keep their profit margins intact. I'm curious though why they'd use this stategy to keep owners from purchasing PS3 though? If they did, it would likely be for movies only ... and $400 is a lot for just movies. Besides, only a few hundred thousand AO's sold for Xbox 360 ... it's not like it would be a landslide of units regardless.

And, if what the BDA Insider's told us is true, we'll see very inexpensive Standalones on the market this year due to all the competition within the CE cartel. If we're going to see $200 Standalones, why bother with a $200 AO that might only be a 'value' for a few months, likely during the summer when electronics sales are at their lowest?

Quote:


Imagine if the add on had issues? there would be hell to pay on forums everywhere.

Yah, can you imagine what Sony's PR machine would do with that?
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post #202 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rashid11 View Post

It is semi-official: MSFT will release BD drive for Xbox 360, just waiting on marketing to get their act together.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=10749

Quote:

Another possible alternative for Microsoft would be to offer a Blu-ray Disc add-on to open the Xbox 360 to the ability of playing both formats. Smarthouse cited supposed insiders at Microsoft saying that a Blu-ray Disc peripheral for the Xbox 360 is pending marketing and sales approvals.

It is just a matter of time till Microsoft announces a BR player for the 360, I see a couple of questions and observations;

1. Will they offer an external player?
This is not as clear as it seems, if there is no money to be made in player sales (assuming the royalties to Sony eat up the profits) why offer an external player? To take care of their current customers?? Not to be too cynical but Microsoft is not known for being a caring company!
Also I read recently that all console sales were declining, the premise was that the consoles have been out 2 years and most people who were going to buy a console have done so.....with this in mind what better way to boost console sales for Microsoft than only offering a console (player installed) version of the 360 with Blue-Ray. I also heard that there may be some sort of console shortcoming in the 360 that would not allow it to play blue-ray without some fundamental changes in circuitry...?
2. If all the above plays out will there be a trade in program ?
My guess is no, too complex, too many issues
3. If I am wrong on the above what will the external Blue-Ray cost
4. When will Microsoft get their act together and actually offer something?

Just my musings.......
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post #203 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 06:19 AM
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No they will not produce a bluray drive know. Maybe when the new xbox that will be out 2010 will. Do not be suprised if universal does not produce movies in bluray in the next 2 years either. Bestbuy will stop having hd dvd movies next month aswell, inside information that i have recieved.
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post #204 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 07:38 AM
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Current studios like Paramount and Universal might produce in Blu-ray right away, it all depends on what they're going to be offered. At this point, they'd be moving over for 'free' while Warner, Fox, Disney, etc, all get a nice subsidy and incentive package.

Some rumors have surfaced that Paramount movies are already in the pipeline for Blu-ray.
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post #205 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 01:22 PM
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As far as I know, we have no plans to release a Blu-ray addon. Generally from design to market would take about a year and a half, so it would be stupid to try that, since by that time, if you can't get a Blu-ray player for less than $150, then BD will have become a niche and not worth supporting.
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post #206 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Current studios like Paramount and Universal might produce in Blu-ray right away, it all depends on what they're going to be offered. At this point, they'd be moving over for 'free' while Warner, Fox, Disney, etc, all get a nice subsidy and incentive package.

Some rumors have surfaced that Paramount movies are already in the pipeline for Blu-ray.

It's already official that Universal is coming aboard and there's no question that Paramount will as well. The future is certainly blue and this will not be a niche market! It will probably take 3-4 years before they start outselling DVD, but it will happen. I believe that the move to all digital TV transmission in 2009 will within a year place an HDTV in 80% of homes if not more. This will be a shot in the arm for Blu-Ray. This is also why I believe that the 360 will have a BD add-on.
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post #207 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by capablanca View Post

It's already official that Universal is coming aboard and there's no question that Paramount will as well. The future is certainly blue and this will not be a niche market! It will probably take 3-4 years before they start outselling DVD, but it will happen. I believe that the move to all digital TV transmission in 2009 will within a year place an HDTV in 80% of homes if not more. This will be a shot in the arm for Blu-Ray. This is also why I believe that the 360 will have a BD add-on.

Well, the hope is that it won't remain niche. It has a long way to go ... wasn't there a recent report that stated that by this time in its lifecycle, DVD had already sold something like 2X as many discs as both formats combined? And those were probably actually *sold* discs, not all the freebies given away by these two competing formats. And that's the prices on players eroded quickly due to the competition.

Like it has already been said, if what the BDA insiders tell us is true, we'll see cheap Blu-ray players now that there is only one format. If the HD DVD AO only sold a few hundred thousand units, why bother with the investment to put out a Blu-ray AO that will likely be supplanted by cheap standalones within a year anyways? And if there are no complete cheap standalones within a year, then Blu-ray is likely in big big trouble as a niche format.

As far as Universal and Paramount coming aboard, it'll be interesting to see when their first titles are slated. Paramount might have some stuff out sooner based on their previous releases. I wonder how Sony is going to work this out for them though? Now that Toshiba folded up tent, will Sony be willing to offer incentives and subsidies to these guys like they did for the other exclusive and neutral studios? Or will these studios end up as red headed step children?
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post #208 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdg345 View Post

Well, the hope is that it won't remain niche. It has a long way to go ... wasn't there a recent report that stated that by this time in its lifecycle, DVD had already sold something like 2X as many discs as both formats combined? And those were probably actually *sold* discs, not all the freebies given away by these two competing formats. And that's the prices on players eroded quickly due to the competition.

Like it has already been said, if what the BDA insiders tell us is true, we'll see cheap Blu-ray players now that there is only one format. If the HD DVD AO only sold a few hundred thousand units, why bother with the investment to put out a Blu-ray AO that will likely be supplanted by cheap standalones within a year anyways? And if there are no complete cheap standalones within a year, then Blu-ray is likely in big big trouble as a niche format.

As far as Universal and Paramount coming aboard, it'll be interesting to see when their first titles are slated. Paramount might have some stuff out sooner based on their previous releases. I wonder how Sony is going to work this out for them though? Now that Toshiba folded up tent, will Sony be willing to offer incentives and subsidies to these guys like they did for the other exclusive and neutral studios? Or will these studios end up as red headed step children?

Patience, it took DVD years to become the default format. People didn't have to buy a new TV to take advantage of DVD like they have to to view Blu-Ray. So it's going to take a little longer. But as I stated earlier, TV broadcasts going digital in 2009 will inspire many to buy a new HDTV which will give them the ability to view Blu-Ray movies. My first DVD player was the PS2 (about 3 years after DVD was released); my first Blu-Ray player will be the PS3, which I will buy later this year after the next price drop.
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post #209 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by capablanca View Post

Patience, it took DVD years to become the default format. People didn't have to buy a new TV to take advantage of DVD like they have to to view Blu-Ray. So it's going to take a little longer. But as I stated earlier, TV broadcasts going digital in 2009 will inspire many to buy a new HDTV which will give them the ability to view Blu-Ray movies. My first DVD player was the PS2 (about 3 years after DVD was released); my first Blu-Ray player will be the PS3, which I will buy later this year after the next price drop.

The question is: is time on the side of HDM? Warner seemed to think not ... a few years might be too long. And TV broadcasts going digital are only really going to affect those getting their content OTA, which is a small percentage of the population -- and the reason they're getting their content OTA is likely either because Cable isn't available or because they simply cannot afford it. I'm guessing those people will get the free convertor box before dropping hundreds if not a thousand dollars on a new HDTV.
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post #210 of 215 Old 02-19-2008, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dean-l View Post

Just because USB2.0 CAN do 320mbps doesn't mean it does.

There is ALWAYS the "potential" and then the "likely" numbers.

It's been this way in almost everything computer.

Wireless speed, internet, cables, etc

The spec is 480Mbps. Actual is 320.
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