Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 351 Old 11-30-2008, 01:33 AM
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So I'm a little confused. I have a television (Sony 30" FD Trinitron® WEGA®
KV-30HS420) that has something called "CineMotion Reverse 3:2 pulldown technology" would I benefit from changing my Blu Ray players settings to allow 24 fps playback?
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post #332 of 351 Old 12-03-2008, 04:19 AM
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Hi,

I think I understand why 24fps from other threads... but see no benifit with setting 24fps for BD playback with my completely new A/V setup.

Is this required for LCD displays only, or for thoes who do not have a full 120hz or 240hz video processing?

My BD player and TV have the abilities to adjust and I prefer to leave mine to video standard as some action clips of movies seem a wee bit less blury at times. Yet sharpness is pretty much the same for both formats.

I guess the name for BD should be Blurr Ray with some end users for now, as I expect movies to be shot at 30 - 45fps in the future since there are a lot of action sequences that need it to bring out more detail and can allow users to slow down action shots as a bonus feature.

Yes, my 2010 Panasonic 42C2 performs better than an S2 No floating blacks and keeps the lowest black levels.
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post #333 of 351 Old 12-30-2008, 12:33 PM
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Alright, this may be too simple of a question, but I don't really understand this progressive stuff, even though I thought I did in the old DVD days.

As I understand, a DVD's player that is set toprogressive (as well as Bluray players) take the 24fps of the original film on the the disc and does 3:2 pulldown to make 60i. So why is a progressive DVD/Bluray output called 480/1080P vs 480/1080i? I understand that the "true 24p" just sends out 24 full frames per second. 60P must use some form of pulldown/alternating field scheme to have the math come out right, since 24 does not divide well into 60. Which brings up another questions, is 60p really 60 frames per second, or 30 fps (To complicate it more they are really 59.94 and 29.97fps)
I have a Sony G-90 CRT projector that is "capable of 1080p". Bluray outputed through HDMI at 1080p looks fantastic. On Bluray, is that ouput 1080p when selected, or just a 3:2 converted feed that sends alternating fields? Finally, as I understand it, no CRT's are suppose to be able to handle 24p, just 60P - Why, and how is that so?

My apologies, I know this has been discussed elsewhere, but I have not read an explanation of how this works for displays that are synced to the 60hz AC power
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post #334 of 351 Old 01-02-2009, 01:15 PM
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Need to add a Samsung PN50A650 for 1080p/24Hz
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post #335 of 351 Old 01-02-2009, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pk442 View Post

As I understand, a DVD's player that is set toprogressive (as well as Bluray players) take the 24fps of the original film on the the disc and does 3:2 pulldown to make 60i.

Actually, on conventional DVD, the conversion from 24 fps to 60i is done before it is put onto disk. When played back on a non-progressive player to a TV that does not do deinterlacing (does not do reverse telecine), then what you are seeing is 60 fields per second, interlaced. It is better in this case to talk about "fields" per second instead of "frames" per second.

Technically, yes, when you have all of the odd lines scanned (1st field) , then all of the even lines scanned (2nd field) that will give you one full frame at 30 frames per second, but only if there is no motion in the picture. When you have motion, no 2 fields are the same. This is what you almost always have with material that was originally done with a video camera as opposed to film. Played back on a "progessive" player, this type of material gets converted to a true 60 frames per second picture. If there is no motion between the 2 fields, the first field will just be held for 1/60 of a second and then scanned along with the second field progressively, one line at a time. If there is motion between the two fields, the deinterlacer will do motion adaptation and interpolate what the progressive lines should be.

With 24 frames per second movie material converted to 60 fields per second video, you do have some fields repeated. Frame 1 of the film will be repeated for 3 fields, then the next frame will be repeated for 2 fields, then the next frame for 3 fields, and so on. This is where the term 3:2 pulldown originates because of the 3-2-3-2-3-2 pattern. Sometimes it is done as 2-3-2-3-2-3. This is an imperfect way of doing it. It slightly throws off the "cadence" of the original 24 frames per second movie material. When this type of material is viewed on a progressive player, the deinterlacer will sense that the original material is film based and will reverse the telcine process. Some frames will be perfect (where 2 indentical fields get repeated) and some will have to have interpolation applied. Again, this is not perfect, but it will give a subtle improvement to the picture with less noticeable scan lines. Most frames will have twice the vertical resolution (a full 480 as opposed to just 240). It can't be perfect because you are still trying to force what was originally done at 24 frames per second into 30 frames per second.

Now, fast forward to the present to Blu-ray discs and players. With Blu-ray, most movies are encoded in their native 24 frames per second format. If the Blu-ray player senses that the TV can accept native 24p material, then it will pass it in it's native format. If the TV cannot, then the player must do the telecine conversion. LCD TV's that can handle this do so by refreshing at 120Hz. Each frame of the movie can just be repeated 5 times since 5 X 24 = 120. Plasma sets will switch either to 48Hz, 72Hz, or 96Hz mode and repeat each frame either 2X, 3X, or 4X.

If the material on the Blu-ray disc is native video format at 60p (60 real frames per second - not fields per second), then the TV just stays in 60Hz mode and displays each frame one time. (120Hz LCDs would display each frame 2X in this case, since LCD panels cannot change refresh rates on the fly. If the panel was designed for 120Hz, it will always operate at 120Hz.)

So, the advantage of the native 24p output is that the movie is shown with its original cadence. There will not be any additional "judder" added by the imperfect telecine process.

You are correct, the real rates are 59.94 and 29.97fps, but for simplicity, it is customary to use 60 and 30.

I hope this helps instead of confuses more. I've been doing a lot of research on this lately, mostly around this whole issue of 120Hz on LCD sets.

Robert
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post #336 of 351 Old 01-17-2009, 07:08 PM
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Is there an updated list available?....2007 is too old for me.
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post #337 of 351 Old 01-20-2009, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMI4Logan View Post

Is there an updated list available?....2007 is too old for me.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155
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post #338 of 351 Old 01-26-2009, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek7300 View Post

...
since LCD panels cannot change refresh rates on the fly. If the panel was designed for 120Hz, it will always operate at 120Hz.
...
Robert

That's a great summary - but is this point always true?

In the setup tab for my PC monitor (a 4-year old 19" LCD) I can select one of several refresh rates: 60, 70, 75, 85, 90, 100, 120 and 160Hz. So there's nothing, in principle, that stops a panel from operating at multiple frequencies within certain design constraints, however it is the case that manufacturers don't provide such options for their TV panels. At least that's true in the US, in Europe the panels will refresh at both 50 and 60Hz (or multiples thereof). (And these are often the same panels as sold in the US but their firmware does allow frequency selection)
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post #339 of 351 Old 01-28-2009, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek7300 View Post

Actually, on conventional DVD, the conversion from 24 fps to 60i is done before it is put onto disk. When played back on a non-progressive player to a TV that does not do deinterlacing (does not do reverse telecine), then what you are seeing is 60 fields per second, interlaced. It is better in this case to talk about "fields" per second instead of "frames" per second.

Technically, yes, when you have all of the odd lines scanned (1st field) , then all of the even lines scanned (2nd field) that will give you one full frame at 30 frames per second, but only if there is no motion in the picture. When you have motion, no 2 fields are the same. This is what you almost always have with material that was originally done with a video camera as opposed to film. Played back on a "progessive" player, this type of material gets converted to a true 60 frames per second picture. If there is no motion between the 2 fields, the first field will just be held for 1/60 of a second and then scanned along with the second field progressively, one line at a time. If there is motion between the two fields, the deinterlacer will do motion adaptation and interpolate what the progressive lines should be.

With 24 frames per second movie material converted to 60 fields per second video, you do have some fields repeated. Frame 1 of the film will be repeated for 3 fields, then the next frame will be repeated for 2 fields, then the next frame for 3 fields, and so on. This is where the term 3:2 pulldown originates because of the 3-2-3-2-3-2 pattern. Sometimes it is done as 2-3-2-3-2-3. This is an imperfect way of doing it. It slightly throws off the "cadence" of the original 24 frames per second movie material. When this type of material is viewed on a progressive player, the deinterlacer will sense that the original material is film based and will reverse the telcine process. Some frames will be perfect (where 2 indentical fields get repeated) and some will have to have interpolation applied. Again, this is not perfect, but it will give a subtle improvement to the picture with less noticeable scan lines. Most frames will have twice the vertical resolution (a full 480 as opposed to just 240). It can't be perfect because you are still trying to force what was originally done at 24 frames per second into 30 frames per second.

Now, fast forward to the present to Blu-ray discs and players. With Blu-ray, most movies are encoded in their native 24 frames per second format. If the Blu-ray player senses that the TV can accept native 24p material, then it will pass it in it's native format. If the TV cannot, then the player must do the telecine conversion. LCD TV's that can handle this do so by refreshing at 120Hz. Each frame of the movie can just be repeated 5 times since 5 X 24 = 120. Plasma sets will switch either to 48Hz, 72Hz, or 96Hz mode and repeat each frame either 2X, 3X, or 4X.

If the material on the Blu-ray disc is native video format at 60p (60 real frames per second - not fields per second), then the TV just stays in 60Hz mode and displays each frame one time. (120Hz LCDs would display each frame 2X in this case, since LCD panels cannot change refresh rates on the fly. If the panel was designed for 120Hz, it will always operate at 120Hz.)

So, the advantage of the native 24p output is that the movie is shown with its original cadence. There will not be any additional "judder" added by the imperfect telecine process.

You are correct, the real rates are 59.94 and 29.97fps, but for simplicity, it is customary to use 60 and 30.

I hope this helps instead of confuses more. I've been doing a lot of research on this lately, mostly around this whole issue of 120Hz on LCD sets.

Robert

So in essence, you would be better off if the DVD player (BD or Upconverting) and display the SD DVD material at 24fps as opposed to trying to convert it to 60i?...yes?
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post #340 of 351 Old 03-10-2009, 11:22 AM
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Some DVD players can do native 24fps output from SD DVDs. If I remember correctly, there were a few HD-DVD players that pioneered this functionality for SD DVDs.

The key is soft telecine encoded DVDs. The original 24 frames can be extracted by ignoring the repeat-field commands in the stream, and to instead show only the original frames (to grossly simplify). Granted, interlacing and badly produced discs can make such an extraction impossible or unreliable. But for the most part it works.
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post #341 of 351 Old 04-24-2011, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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A updated list of 3-D consumer displays that display 3-D & 2-D Blu-ray signals at Cinema quality frame rates can be found at the following websites:


http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home...rame-rate.html
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post #342 of 351 Old 04-26-2011, 04:55 PM
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It has been a while!

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post #343 of 351 Old 11-16-2011, 07:18 AM
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been searching different forums for days on this. Surely there must be one out there?

tried a Panny 210 and yes it plays mkv's but at 60hz so it stutters

All i want is a playere that will play BD discs AND rips the way they were made
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post #344 of 351 Old 11-16-2011, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker View Post

been searching different forums for days on this. Surely there must be one out there?

tried a Panny 210 and yes it plays mkv's but at 60hz so it stutters

All i want is a playere that will play BD discs AND rips the way they were made

Oppo 93 or 95, usb or eSATA attached storage.
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post #345 of 351 Old 11-16-2011, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

Oppo 93 or 95, usb or eSATA attached storage.

yep but out of my price range

i posted in the bluray player forum but it got moved here

thought i had it this afternoon with a cheap samsung, sure enough it changed to 24 but i now think it only does it when connected to a samsung display
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post #346 of 351 Old 11-17-2011, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker View Post

yep but out of my price range

i posted in the bluray player forum but it got moved here

thought i had it this afternoon with a cheap samsung, sure enough it changed to 24 but i now think it only does it when connected to a samsung display

Um - the PS3 plays at that spec if i'm right.

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post #347 of 351 Old 11-17-2011, 03:49 PM
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Um - the PS3 plays at that spec if i'm right.

Nope! only 60hz for avi's etc

anyway looks like Samsung is the saviour
had one on lone and it is outstanding!!!!
plays all files i threw at it and switched automatically to the right refesh rate with picture quality to beat my HTPC with all its gizmos
fantastic piece of kit
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post #348 of 351 Old 11-18-2011, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacemaker View Post

Nope! only 60hz for avi's etc

anyway looks like Samsung is the saviour
had one on lone and it is outstanding!!!!
plays all files i threw at it and switched automatically to the right refesh rate with picture quality to beat my HTPC with all its gizmos
fantastic piece of kit

Guess I'm didn't understand all the deets since all BDs I watch on my PS3 are 24hz and all my BD rips are 1080p/24 on my popcorn hour.

"..where you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

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post #349 of 351 Old 11-18-2011, 08:22 AM
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The only thing that PS3s can output at 24p are blu-ray. If sony would fix this shortcoming, I'd buy a PS3 immediately.

Technically speaking it should be capable of outputting anything it wants at 24p. But then again, the same is true for nearly every modern video component. Unfortunately, the PS3 doesn't at this time.
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post #350 of 351 Old 08-06-2013, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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A updated list of 3-D consumer displays that display 3-D & 2-D Blu-ray signals at Cinema quality frame rates can be found at the following website. The list use to have only projectors with a price range of around $50,000-$200,000+. However now 144Hz 3-D projectors can be purchased for as low as $11,995.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home-theater-gear/25688-displays-support-1080p-24-signal-multiplies-original-frame-rate.html
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post #351 of 351 Old 08-02-2014, 10:22 PM - Thread Starter
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The Cinema quality frame rate list now includes 3-D 144Hz projectors at amazing low price of under $700


A few years ago 144Hz triple flash DLP projectors cost around $80,000 for the 3 chip DLP models, now 3-chip DLP 144Hz projectors start at $24,995 in 2014. Single chip DLP 144Hz projectors use to be $11,995. However now one can purchase single chip DLP projectors with 144Hz flicker free Cinema quality triple flash technology for under $700 (also with 3,000 lumens).

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=5155

http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home...rame-rate.html
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