Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-24-2008, 05:59 AM
Member
 
locke6854's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by brand450 View Post

Would you look at sets that are on the market now or coming in the next couple months? Or wait until the fall release of '08 or possibly later? And if later what specs would you be looking for?

If you wait, you'll always be waiting. I'd wait until a new model was out, and as soon as I did, new models would be released that made me want to wait longer.

I didn't get an LCD until the 8th generation panels came out. I went without HD for years. All that time I could have been enjoying some great content.

So I suggest going for it. In the CE world, it seems like we're always going to be obsolete.
locke6854 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-24-2008, 08:46 AM
Senior Member
 
PontifexMaximus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 326
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by brand450 View Post

I read the link ( http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/207gear/ ) after the fact and that is one of the most informing articles I have read I thank you again for that info. Whoever wrote that knows what he is talking about.

Sorry for the off topic post. Geoffrey Morrison is one of the most authoritative sources I've learn a lot from. Be sure to check out his other Gearworks articles:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearworks/
Besides the article already posted, I found the articles on 1080p/24, 1080i vs 1080p, and Viewing Distance vs Resolution especially helpful.
Be sure to also check out the Hook Me Up articles, particularly the five articles written by Gary Merson (aka the HDTV Guru):
http://www.hometheatermag.com/hookmeup/

Also, Geoffrey's blog seems to no longer be linked to on the main site as it appears to no longer be actively updated, but the archives are still there for now:
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/geoffreymorrison/

Geoffrey has reviewed the Kuros very positively and is one of the reasons I settled on a Pioneer Kuro plasma this past new year. It's a beautiful tv.
PontifexMaximus is offline  
Old 02-24-2008, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by brand450 View Post

Thanks for the information!! I was aware of the deep color/ xvycc but didn't know there was a connection to the color gamut (108% color gamut). I do like the "future proofing" technologies on this tv a lot, I think I'm going to go with it.

Another question for ya.. What would you get?? Would you look at sets that are on the market now or coming in the next couple months? Or wait until the fall release of '08 or possibly later? And if later what specs would you be looking for?

As technology improves most of the time there is always going to be new and better models to choose from as long as manufactories are concentrating on quality instead of how cheap they can make something. I like cheap products as long as quality level is maintained.
I personally like high-end Front Projectors which offer the best home theater experience. Of course if one does not have a dedicated dark home theater room that is not a reality for most. My second choice would be a Pioneer PRO-150FD. Read this review it mentions how the Pioneer which costs $7,500 list price has a better picture quality compared to an $18,000 list priced Plasma.
Quote
“Here, the Fujitsu displays a very good, but not the greatest, deep black and dark gray performance. Both Geoffrey and I agree that, unfortunately for the Fujitsu, the latest Pioneer Elite KURO plasmas have raised the bar significantly in that important department.”
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/208fuj65ft/
Now for best value a discontinued Sony KDS-60A3000 SXRD rear projector might still be able to be found for under $2,000 in some retail stores. That would be my third choice and my second choice if I did not want to spend several thousand dollars more for a Pioneer Elite.
http://ultimateavmag.com/rearprojectiontvs/1207sony3000/index.html
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-24-2008, 12:39 PM
Super Moderator
 
teachsac's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Elk Grove, CA
Posts: 4,557
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked: 153
Panasonic seems to have conflicting information on 24p playback on their websites.

According to the Viera website (internationsl) the New line supports 1080p at 48 (Cinematic Playback). You have to skip a few pages to get there.

http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/v...res/index.html

However, when comparing the new models (80 and 85), this is not one of te features listed Cinematic Playback= No)

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-e...00000000005702

S~

It looks like this feature might be limited to the PZ800 series and not available on the 80 and 85 series.

Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself
teachsac is online now  
Old 02-24-2008, 06:51 PM
Member
 
brand450's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
well said locke6854, that is a very true statement. I am looking for a LCD 120hz with 5:5 pulldown. I would prefer the Toshiba xv540 over the XBR4 but I want to see the Toshiba before I pull the trigger. I am also looking at the new 1018 Pioneer receiver coming out in June along with Klipsch RF-82 speakers with the center (RC-52) and surrounds (RS-42) w/ 10" sub (RW-10) (still debating between 5.1 and 7.1)
P.S. I'm college kid so everything is probably going to be purchased with my BBY employee discount, not an unlimited disposable income...yet
thanks for the extra links PontifexMaximus and HDTV1080P24!!
brand450 is offline  
Old 02-24-2008, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
The Samsung LN-T4071F, LN-T4671F, and LN-T5271F have been added to the list.


Sony now has some competition for those looking for the true 1080P/24 5:5 pulldown feature (multiplies of the original frame). It has now officially been confirmed by a professional review published by Scott Wilkinson at UltimateAVmag.com that the Samsung LN-T4671F offers true 5:5 pulldown.
All 3 Samsung displays use the exact same instruction manual and the specs are exactly the same on each model accept the physical weight and size. The instruction manual has an error in it on page 29 it mentions that if you turn off Auto Motion Plus it also turns off 120HZ. If one reads the instruction manual one would think their display becomes a 60HZ display just like all the other 60HZ Samsung displays. According to the professional review the 120HZ Samsung is always native 120HZ even when Auto Motion is turned off. When auto motion is turned on it may once and a while improve 60HZ video by interpolating each frame but it also causes major artifacts in the picture once and a while. When auto motion is turned off 60HZ is frame doubled to 120HZ without the problem of artifacts at the cost of having a less smooth picture. When Auto Motion is turned off and one is watching a BLU-RAY the set will repeat each 24fps frame until it reaches 120HZ. This Samsung offers true 5:5 pulldown and the image from BLU-RAY will look like 35MM or 70MM film instead a artificial smooth 60HZ video look.



Added to the list
Samsung LN-T4071F
Samsung LN-T4671F
Samsung LN-T5271F


Quote
The LN-T4671F includes a feature called Auto Motion Plus (AMP), which can be set to Low, Medium, or High, or it can be turned off. If it's off, each frame in a 60Hz signal is simply doubled, and each frame in a 24Hz signal is repeated five times. In any event, the set's refresh rate is always 120Hz whether or not AMP is enabled.

Some Positive items from the review

The Samsung 120HZ models will decode 3:2 pulldown from 60HZ material.
Quote
In any case, with a 60Hz signal, the processor is said to determine the original frame rateconverting it back to 24fps using inverse telecine if it encounters 3:2 pulldown..

I really like the menu system, which is much better than the one in Samsung's earlier TVs. The picture controls are now the first things to appear when you press the Menu button, rather than being several layers deep.

All in all, the LN-T4671F is a fine LCD TV. It exhibits exceptional color and detail, the blacks are nice and deep, and the shadow detail is better than most LCDs I've seen

Real-World Performance
Pioneer created a Blu-ray demo disc to show off its Kuro line of plasmas, but that material is great for evaluating all types of displays, especially in terms of black level and shadow detail. The Samsung's blacks were certainly not on par with the Kuros', but no one should expect them to be, especially an LCD with conventional backlighting. Still, they weren't bad by any means, and shadow detail was surprisingly goodthat is, once I had set the TV's brightness and backlight controls correctly. Colors were beautiful, and detail was razor-sharp.

Turning to Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl on Blu-ray, the Samsung produced a smooth, natural image with exceptional color and detail. Shadow detail in night scenes was similarly excellent.

Negatives

Quote
The FPD For Professionals Blu-ray test disc provides some excellent clips to evaluate a flat-panel display's motion rendering and other characteristics. Auto Motion Plus did clean up moving objects quite a bit, but it also introduced some serious artifacts in certain types of images.
For example, it sharpened the horizontally scrolling monoscope pattern, but the horizontal and diagonal bursts were full of distortion artifacts. Turning AMP off removed the artifacts, but the motion was a lot blurrier. AMP did improve the horizontally scrolling characters and map as well as the swinging hammock and metronome without problems, but the artifacts are so obvious when they appear that I tended to leave AMP off.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/208sam4671/
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-24-2008, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Here are a list of some of the Samsungs that use a 3:2 pulldown process and will not be added to the list


1. Samsung FP-T5884 Plasma

Quote
The FP-T5884 will accept signals up to 1080p at 60 or 24Hz via HDMI; the component input can accept 1080p/60. Unfortunately, the set converts 1080p/24 to 60Hz for display by applying 3:2 pulldown, eliminating the benefit of having a 1080p/24 source. There aren't many plasmas (or other displays) that show 1080p/24 correctlythat is, at a multiple of 24Hz, which results in smoother motion from film-based content.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/208sam884/

2. Samsung LN-T5281F LCD

Quote
The Samsung will accept a 1080p/24 input, but it converts it internally to 1080p/60 prior to display. Whether you will be better off simply changing the output resolution on your high-definition player to 1080p/60 to begin with will depend on which devicethe player or the setdoes a better job in converting 1080p/24 to 1080p/60. It's likely you won't see any difference.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/1207sam5281/index2.html

3. Samsung LN-T5265F LCD

Quote
The Samsung will accept a 1080p/24fps input, but it converts it internally to 1080p/60fps prior to display. Whether you will be better off simply changing the output resolution on your high-definition player to 1080p/60 to begin with will depend on which devicethe player or the setdoes a better job in converting 1080p/24 to 1080p/60. It's likely you won't see any difference, but do experiment.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/807sam52/index2.html
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 04:22 AM
Senior Member
 
Blinx123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bietigheim-Bissingen near Stuttgart,Germany (will move to Dresden,Saxony by July and consider to study at Durham University after my 3 years of ESA.)
Posts: 252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What about CRT front projectors? Would be cool if someone could post his own experience or maybe a bandwidth/resolution/Hz chart.

BTW: What's the real point in moving this thread to the Blu-Ray location? Did I miss something. The CIA still wasn't at my place to collect all my HD-DVDs and there are certain other formats you can play 1080p/24Hz movies from (Such as: custom made DVDs played in Zoomplayer using FFDSHOW, internet services such as AppleTV,HD-VMD).

The ultimate Vampire movie:

http://s17.bitefight.de/c.php?uid=16313


Come on. Click on it. Me and you,we both know you want to:)
Blinx123 is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
The Samsung series 6 and 7 LCD flat panels have been added to the list


According to Samsungs product news the new Series 6 and 7 LCD screens use the same Auto Motion Plus 120HZ technology as the 71F series. When Auto motion Plus is turned off the display will no longer use interpolation of new frames and it will repeat each 24fps signal 5 times for true 5:5 pulldown (120HZ refresh).
Quote
The LN-T4671F includes a feature called Auto Motion Plus (AMP), which can be set to Low, Medium, or High, or it can be turned off. If it's off, each frame in a 60Hz signal is simply doubled, and each frame in a 24Hz signal is repeated five times. In any event, the set's refresh rate is always 120Hz whether or not AMP is enabled.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/208sam4671/


Quote from Samsung Series 6 and 7 product news.
The fast response time, coupled with Samsung's Auto Motion Plus 120Hz motion blur reduction technology dramatically reduces motion blur and juddermaking the set ideal for playing video games and watching action sports.

http://www.samsung.com/us/news/newsRead.do?news_group=productnews&news_type=consumerproduct&news_ctgry=tv&news_seq=6445


LCD flat panels added to the list

Samsung LN-40A650T (Scheduled for a March release)
Samsung LN-46A650T (Scheduled for a March release)
Samsung LN-52A650T (Scheduled for a March release)
Samsung LN-40A750T (scheduled for a May release)
Samsung LN-46A750T (scheduled for a May release)
Samsung LN-52A750T (scheduled for a May release)
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blinx123 View Post

What about CRT front projectors? Would be cool if someone could post his own experience or maybe a bandwidth/resolution/Hz chart.

BTW: What's the real point in moving this thread to the Blu-Ray location? Did I miss something. The CIA still wasn't at my place to collect all my HD-DVDs and there are certain other formats you can play 1080p/24Hz movies from (Such as: custom made DVDs played in Zoomplayer using FFDSHOW, internet services such as AppleTV,HD-VMD).

CRT’s have the best ANSI contrast ratio compared to any display and 9 inch CRT front projectors can produce full interlace 1920 X 1080 I resolution. No one makes a CRT front projector anymore to my knowledge. I do not think any of them have 1080P/24 inputs and if they did the signal most likely would be converted to 1080I. It may be a year or two until a Front projector is made that beats a 9 inch CRT in the area of ANSI contrast ratio and deep blacks.
This thread was originally created at BLU-RAY.COM in a home theater section of the forum and has been posted in the home theater area at High-Def Digest also. When I came to the AV Science forum I wanted to also post this thread in a home theater section but then since that forum is made up of different sections like Plasma, CRT, rear projectors, front projectors, etc. I could not find a location that just listed one area that included all displays. So I made the decision to originally post the thread in the dual format area since the 1080P/24 feature would benefit BLU-RAY, HD-DVD, and dual format owners. When BLU-RAY won the format war I decided to move the thread to the BLU-RAY players section. If I plan on updating this thread long term which I might there is a possibility that many months or years in the future the HD-DVD and dual format areas might disappear since those players are going out of production. The 1080P/24 input at multiplies of the original frame feature is very useful for the several millions of BLU-RAY devices that have been sold. HD-DVD and dual format player owners are still welcome to use this list when they are researching displays that will take advantage of their 1080P/24 players and movie collection.
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-25-2008, 10:54 PM
Member
 
KillaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by grendelrt View Post

What about the Samsung HLT 89 Series? Example : HLT5689S

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Touch View Post

I would also like to know this- for the HLT 87 and 89 series.

I'll third that.
Is there any way one can test this using off the shelf hardware?
KillaB is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:18 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Samsung HL-T5687S DLP rear projector will not be added to the list since it displays 1080P/24 at 60HZ when one can get it to work with a BLU-RAY player


Quote
The Samsung will accept a 1080p/24fps input, but it converts it internally to 1080p/60fps prior to display. And it will not accept a 1080p/24fps input from Samsung's own BD-P1200 Blu-ray player, a trait it shares with the Samsung LN-T5265F flat panel LCD.
It did accept a 1080p/24 input from the Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 BD player, but its 24fps performance with that player was unsatisfactory. It skipped a frame or two every few minutes, which caused the image to stutter. I sent 1080p/60 to the set for all of my HD disc viewing.
http://ultimateavmag.com/rearprojectiontvs/807sam5687/index2.html
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:28 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillaB View Post

I'll third that.
Is there any way one can test this using off the shelf hardware?

I read a review on the HLT89 series but it did not mention anything about the 1080P/24 feature so I can not say for sure about that display. So far all the reviews for the Samsung rear projectors have shown that they display 1080P/24 at 60HZ. I do not remember how the refresh rate is being tested; I guess one could use an oscilloscope or perhaps special video test equipment. Many times in these reviews the information comes from the company's engineer.
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 02:06 AM
SRR
AVS Special Member
 
SRR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,939
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I don't see it on the list, but can anyone confirm or deny the Sony VPL-AW15 projector refresh rate. It excepts 24Hz and I think it looks better then non 24Hz HD DVD and Blu-ray players output. Oh and playing video sources in the extras can get jerky, so outputing 24Hz is doing something.
SRR is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 02:16 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Update on the Mitsubishi HC6000 Front Projector


In the March 2008 Home Theater magazine on page 46 there is confirmation in a review that the Mitsubishi HC6000 will display 1080P/24 at 48HZ which verifies that the information in the November 2007 Widescreen review magazine is correct regarding this model.

Quote from page 46 of March 2008 Home Theater magazine

The HDMI inputs accept both 1080P/60 and 1080P/24, and the projector outputs 1080P/48 when receiving a 1080P/24 signal, for smoother, less juddery presentation.
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRR View Post

I don't see it on the list, but can anyone confirm or deny the Sony VPL-AW15 projector refresh rate. It excepts 24Hz and I think it looks better then non 24Hz HD DVD and Blu-ray players output. Oh and playing video sources in the extras can get jerky, so outputing 24Hz is doing something.

Here is a review link to the native 720P Sony BRAVIA VPL-AW15. This projector is a 720P model so it will not be included on the list. I am not sure how it handles 1080P/24. It most likely converts the 1080P/24 signal to 720P/24 and refreshes the image on the screen at 720P at 48HZ. Or it will use a 3:2 pulldown and do 720P 60HZ. I am not sure but so far any time I have seen 1080P/24 inputs offered on a 720P model they have correctly refreshed the image on the screen at multiplies of the original frame.
Quote
http://www.projectorcentral.com/sony_vpl-aw15.htm
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 03:45 AM
Advanced Member
 
scarecrow420's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 832
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey guys im pleased to see the Samsung 71F models are now officially on the list after the Ultimate AV Review mag confirmed things

Just wondering if the list should point out that it is only as of a firmware update that it works

So the fact it is in an official review is now evidence that it definately supports it? Do we know how/if the reviewer actually tested it, or whether the info just came from Samswung? I am not disputing it, but moreso i am interested in how it can be verified what refresh rate is being used... is it simply "not seeing judder" and "not seeing interpolated frames" that proves it, or is there some measurable way?

I ask because i own the australian equivalent model (LA-46F81) and am interested in finding out whether it displays 24p content properly, or if we require a similar firmware update to what you guys had recently. The other "issue" with ours is that it is marketted at 100Hz (i guess because our normal tv broadcasts and PAL DVD outputs are 50Hz), but this is stupid since 100Hz is not an even multiple of 24. However when we look in our Service Menu, there is a setting in there (forget what it is called) which is set to 120... so it could just be that it ewither somehow can display at 100 for 50 content, and 120 for 60p content (and I hope 24p content)... or else it always displays at 120 like the US set, and is just marketted as 100 here. Or the final possibility is that it only displays at 100 (if that is the case, what happens to 60p content... perhaps it converts that back to 24 then does the PAL speedup thing to get to 50/100).

So yeah, my question is - how can i measure or otherwise ascertain how my tv is displaying various input signals?? I cant see any difference between 24p or 60p output from my Samy 1400 BD player, however once again this could be because 3:2 pulldown is simply moved from the player (when sending 60p), to inside the set (when sending 24p)... or if the set does display 24p properly, then it could actually be that it is inverce telecining 60p format back to 24p and then displaying it at 120Hz, as apparently that is what the 71F models do as per that review. This is my first LCD and since prior to BluRay I didnt have any 60p content (like NTSC DVDs etc), i am not experienced at "spotting" judder caused by 3:2 pulldown so i cant tell just by watching whether what i see is judder or just the natural 24 frame film cadence.

Any input appreciated
scarecrow420 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 11:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
facesnorth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Pocono Mountains
Posts: 1,880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I received confirmation from a Sharp CSR today that some of the D64U series of sets are being manufactured to accept a 24 fps signal and output it at a multiple of the original frame rate (no 3:2 pulldown). I am awaiting confirmation on exactly which multiple that is. Unfortunately, and strangely, the factory is still producing sets that don't offer this feature, as well as the sets which do. There is some evidence that you can determine which ones do by the serial numbers, but we are not certain of that yet. So far we have found that serial numbers begining with C712 or C801 offer the feature. Anything else, including B712 and B801 do not. The firmware gives it away for sure, containing the letter S, as opposed to non-24fps sets with the letter U, but you can't tell that until you turn the set on.
facesnorth is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 11:33 AM
Advanced Member
 
dkny75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New York
Posts: 583
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Hey HDTV, can you do us a favor and post in regular colors? It's very hard to read your posts.
dkny75 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarecrow420 View Post

Hey guys im pleased to see the Samsung 71F models are now officially on the list after the Ultimate AV Review mag confirmed things

Just wondering if the list should point out that it is only as of a firmware update that it works

So the fact it is in an official review is now evidence that it definately supports it? Do we know how/if the reviewer actually tested it, or whether the info just came from Samswung? I am not disputing it, but moreso i am interested in how it can be verified what refresh rate is being used... is it simply "not seeing judder" and "not seeing interpolated frames" that proves it, or is there some measurable way?

I ask because i own the australian equivalent model (LA-46F81) and am interested in finding out whether it displays 24p content properly, or if we require a similar firmware update to what you guys had recently. The other "issue" with ours is that it is marketted at 100Hz (i guess because our normal tv broadcasts and PAL DVD outputs are 50Hz), but this is stupid since 100Hz is not an even multiple of 24. However when we look in our Service Menu, there is a setting in there (forget what it is called) which is set to 120... so it could just be that it ewither somehow can display at 100 for 50 content, and 120 for 60p content (and I hope 24p content)... or else it always displays at 120 like the US set, and is just marketted as 100 here. Or the final possibility is that it only displays at 100 (if that is the case, what happens to 60p content... perhaps it converts that back to 24 then does the PAL speedup thing to get to 50/100).

So yeah, my question is - how can i measure or otherwise ascertain how my tv is displaying various input signals?? I cant see any difference between 24p or 60p output from my Samy 1400 BD player, however once again this could be because 3:2 pulldown is simply moved from the player (when sending 60p), to inside the set (when sending 24p)... or if the set does display 24p properly, then it could actually be that it is inverce telecining 60p format back to 24p and then displaying it at 120Hz, as apparently that is what the 71F models do as per that review. This is my first LCD and since prior to BluRay I didnt have any 60p content (like NTSC DVDs etc), i am not experienced at "spotting" judder caused by 3:2 pulldown so i cant tell just by watching whether what i see is judder or just the natural 24 frame film cadence.

Any input appreciated

I thought the 71F models all had the option to turn off Auto motion plus which makes the displays true 5:5 pulldown. Did the option to turn off Auto Motion Plus not exist on a older firmware version? It would be cool if someone were to create a list that included all world models but I only have the time for US models. Even keeping track of US models takes more time then I like to spend.
The Austrian version either uses 2:2 pulldown (24fps is converted to 50HZ, not to be confused with 48HZ) or it may be using a 4:4 pulldown (96HZ) or 5:5 pulldown 120HZ when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. I do not know for sure.
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:39 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Wryker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nashvegas
Posts: 2,432
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

I wish I had the time to review displays, All the reviews I post come from professional magazines like Perfect Vision, Widescreen Review, Home Theater magazine, Sound and Vision, and several other publications. Of all the reviews that I have read Mitsubishi for both their LCD and DLP displays has been using a 3:2 pulldown process for their 60HZ and 120HZ displays.

From Mitsubishi's site there is no conversion:
Tru1080p Processing
Keep your signal the way it was meant to be seen. Mitsubishi's Tru1080p Processing maintains 1080p high definition signals as 1080p from beginning to end. All 1080p DVI-I, HDMI, IEEE 1394 and 1080p Broadcast signals are passed through with no down conversions. The advancements of 1080p DLP® technology for HDTV viewing deliver over 2 million pixels to you on-screen for a full and true 1920 x 1080 resolution. With Mitsubishi 1080p DLP® HDTVs, you can experience the best that high definition has to offer today and be ready to enjoy all of the 1080p sources that are on the horizon.
http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/j/i/183....html?cid=5470
click on "True1080p Processing"

"..where you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

Wryker is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 12:43 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkny75 View Post

Hey HDTV, can you do us a favor and post in regular colors? It's very hard to read your posts.

I was using colors like blue mainly to make it easier to find new items added to the list for people that did not want to read all the diffrent threads. Most the new posts the blue color is found in the title. I guess the way some people have the screen configured it makes it difficult to read any text accept black? I have not tried customizing my screen settings yet to see if I can duplicate the problem. Now on the main list in big letters in red is a warning statement to let people know the list is not 100% accurate and displays can be removed and added to the list from time to time.
I will try and use black text more often and limit font sizes once and a while. I have my screen set to a high resolution and I forget that that using a lower resolution monitor can make viewing the text appear super large.
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 01:36 PM
Member
 
KillaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

I read a review on the HLT89 series but it did not mention anything about the 1080P/24 feature so I can not say for sure about that display. So far all the reviews for the Samsung rear projectors have shown that they display 1080P/24 at 60HZ. I do not remember how the refresh rate is being tested; I guess one could use an oscilloscope or perhaps special video test equipment. Many times in these reviews the information comes from the company's engineer.

That would explain why I don't see a difference between 60Hz and 24Hz (forced) from my PS3. The HL-Txx87 and 89 series is quite capable of 120Hz so I'm not sure why they would use a 3:2 pulldown. If it does indeed use a 3:2 pulldown, is that something that can be changed with a firmware update??
KillaB is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Panasonic Plasma's added to the list


TH-50PZ800 (Spring 2008)
TH-46PZ800 (Spring 2008)
TH-42PZ800 (Spring 2008)
TH-65PZ850 (Fall 2008)
TH-58PZ850 (Fall 2008)
TH-50PZ850 (Spring 2008)
TH-46PZ850U (Spring 2008)

The 80 and 85 series will not be added since it appears they refresh 1080P/24 at 60HZ.


Here is some more information on the Sony series coming out. The none 120HZ Sony's being released like the V4100 series need further verification to verify they are using 48HZ like the PC magazine mentions. I wish manufactories would label stuff like 48HZ, 72HZ, etc to make things easy.
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6535289.html?desc=topstory
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillaB View Post

That would explain why I don't see a difference between 60Hz and 24Hz (forced) from my PS3. The HL-Txx87 and 89 series is quite capable of 120Hz so I'm not sure why they would use a 3:2 pulldown. If it does indeed use a 3:2 pulldown, is that something that can be changed with a firmware update??

Very few companies offer a firmware update for their products. Mostly only a few high-end front projectors offer this. Also some LCD flat panel screens and other displays sometimes only display at 60HZ and a software update can not correct that issue.
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 02-26-2008, 04:08 PM
Member
 
KillaB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Very few companies offer a firmware update for their products. Mostly only a few high-end front projectors offer this. Also some LCD flat panel screens and other displays sometimes only display at 60HZ and a software update can not correct that issue.

Samsung has always stated that they would be issuing a firmware update for these sets to support 3D. A full 60Hz per eye as far as I understand.

I'm still uncertain wether this can even be changed in firmware, it might be a hardware limitation? but I really have no idea.
KillaB is offline  
Old 03-03-2008, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Here is a link to the 2008 HDTV Technology Face Off article




It is amazing that the Pioneer PDP-5080HD 720P (768P actual) Plasma display has a better picture quality compared to most 1080P displays. The ANSI contrast ratio is so good on the 720P Pioneer that it provides more overall detail to the picture quality compared to most other brands of 1080P displays without the need of resolution since most people do not seat close enough to a 1080P to see the diffrence.

Link to the electronic version of the article

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/208hdface/index.html
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
Old 03-05-2008, 06:45 PM
Newbie
 
brazen1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Samsung LN52A550T 120Hz using 5:5 pulldown. Should this model be added to the list? I see the 650's and 750's passed.
brazen1 is offline  
Old 03-05-2008, 09:58 PM
Member
 
vm7118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 65
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

The Samsung LN-T4071F, LN-T4671F, and LN-T5271F have been added to the list.


Sony now has some competition for those looking for the true 1080P/24 5:5 pulldown feature (multiplies of the original frame). It has now officially been confirmed by a professional review published by Scott Wilkinson at UltimateAVmag.com that the Samsung LN-T4671F offers true 5:5 pulldown.
All 3 Samsung displays use the exact same instruction manual and the specs are exactly the same on each model accept the physical weight and size. The instruction manual has an error in it on page 29 it mentions that if you turn off Auto Motion Plus it also turns off 120HZ. If one reads the instruction manual one would think their display becomes a 60HZ display just like all the other 60HZ Samsung displays. According to the professional review the 120HZ Samsung is always native 120HZ even when Auto Motion is turned off. When auto motion is turned on it may once and a while improve 60HZ video by interpolating each frame but it also causes major artifacts in the picture once and a while. When auto motion is turned off 60HZ is frame doubled to 120HZ without the problem of artifacts at the cost of having a less smooth picture. When Auto Motion is turned off and one is watching a BLU-RAY the set will repeat each 24fps frame until it reaches 120HZ. This Samsung offers true 5:5 pulldown and the image from BLU-RAY will look like 35MM or 70MM film instead a artificial smooth 60HZ video look.



Added to the list
Samsung LN-T4071F
Samsung LN-T4671F
Samsung LN-T5271F


Quote
The LN-T4671F includes a feature called Auto Motion Plus (AMP), which can be set to Low, Medium, or High, or it can be turned off. If it's off, each frame in a 60Hz signal is simply doubled, and each frame in a 24Hz signal is repeated five times. In any event, the set's refresh rate is always 120Hz whether or not AMP is enabled.

Some Positive items from the review

The Samsung 120HZ models will decode 3:2 pulldown from 60HZ material.
Quote
In any case, with a 60Hz signal, the processor is said to determine the original frame rateconverting it back to 24fps using inverse telecine if it encounters 3:2 pulldown..

I really like the menu system, which is much better than the one in Samsung's earlier TVs. The picture controls are now the first things to appear when you press the Menu button, rather than being several layers deep.

All in all, the LN-T4671F is a fine LCD TV. It exhibits exceptional color and detail, the blacks are nice and deep, and the shadow detail is better than most LCDs I've seen

Real-World Performance
Pioneer created a Blu-ray demo disc to show off its Kuro line of plasmas, but that material is great for evaluating all types of displays, especially in terms of black level and shadow detail. The Samsung's blacks were certainly not on par with the Kuros', but no one should expect them to be, especially an LCD with conventional backlighting. Still, they weren't bad by any means, and shadow detail was surprisingly goodthat is, once I had set the TV's brightness and backlight controls correctly. Colors were beautiful, and detail was razor-sharp.

Turning to Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl on Blu-ray, the Samsung produced a smooth, natural image with exceptional color and detail. Shadow detail in night scenes was similarly excellent.

Negatives

Quote
The FPD For Professionals Blu-ray test disc provides some excellent clips to evaluate a flat-panel display's motion rendering and other characteristics. Auto Motion Plus did clean up moving objects quite a bit, but it also introduced some serious artifacts in certain types of images.
For example, it sharpened the horizontally scrolling monoscope pattern, but the horizontal and diagonal bursts were full of distortion artifacts. Turning AMP off removed the artifacts, but the motion was a lot blurrier. AMP did improve the horizontally scrolling characters and map as well as the swinging hammock and metronome without problems, but the artifacts are so obvious when they appear that I tended to leave AMP off.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/208sam4671/

if the 71 series is on the list, the 69 series should be there as well. they are exactly the same panels, with the only difference being glossy vs matte screens, and a corresponding slight drop in contrast ratio for the matte screen.
vm7118 is offline  
Old 03-06-2008, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
HDTV1080P24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 588
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post

Samsung LN52A550T 120Hz using 5:5 pulldown. Should this model be added to the list? I see the 650's and 750's passed.

The Samsung press release on the series 5 mentions nothing about 120HZ and the Auto Motion Plus feature. Perhaps this model is only a 60HZ model or a model that offers 120HZ without the option to turn off AMP in order to get multiplies of the original frame. At this time this model will not be added to the list until further information is released.

http://www.samsung.com/us/news/newsRead.do?news_seq=6444&page=2&news_group=productnews&rdoPeriod=ALL&from_dt=&to_dt=&news_type=&news_ctgry=&search_keyword
HDTV1080P24 is offline  
 

Tags
Panasonic Viera Th 50pz800u 50 Inch 1080p Plasma Hdtv , Panasonic Viera Th 58pz850u 58 Inch 1080p Plasma Hdtv
Gear in this thread
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off