Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 350 Old 03-25-2008, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by docchris View Post

This review:

www. hdtvtest. co.uk / Toshiba-47Z3030D/Conclusion

says that he can see telecine judder on 24fps unless their motion compensation is turned on, which interpolates frames so kind of defeats the point of 5:5?

this is very worrying for me... my 47z3030 arrives in 15 hours!!!!

So far all reviews for the existing 120HZ Toshiba models have shown that Toshiba is using a 3:2 pulldown process and interpolating new frames when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. The only Toshiba's that appear on the list are the ones listed below. The Toshiba press release claims the displays are true 120HZ with true 5:5 pulldown.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...0&postcount=21

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...7&postcount=22

Toshiba 42XV540 (120HZ true 5:5 pulldown according to the Toshiba press release (no reviews yet)
Toshiba 46XV540 (120HZ true 5:5 pulldown according to the Toshiba press release (no reviews yet)
Toshiba 52XV540 (120HZ true 5:5 pulldown according to the Toshiba press release (no reviews yet)
Toshiba 40XF550 (120HZ true 5:5 pulldown according to the Toshiba press release (no reviews yet)
Toshiba 46XF550 (120HZ true 5:5 pulldown according to the Toshiba press release (no reviews yet)
Toshiba 52XF550 (120HZ true 5:5 pulldown according to the Toshiba press release (no reviews yet)
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post #152 of 350 Old 04-02-2008, 06:34 AM
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So if my Panasonic 58 Plasma does not appear on the list, I shouldnt select the 1080p/24 option from my Sony Blu Ray?

rthanks

J
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post #153 of 350 Old 04-02-2008, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr07 View Post

So if my Panasonic 58 Plasma does not appear on the list, I shouldnt select the 1080p/24 option from my Sony Blu Ray?

rthanks

J

If your display does accept both a 1080P/60 and a 1080P/24 input from a BLU-RAY player you should try both. When people own displays that use a 3:2 pulldown process one usually can not tell the difference between 1080P/60 and 1080P/24 unless the 3:2 pulldown process is better quality in one of the devices. If you notice a better picture quality when the BLU-RAY player is outputting 1080P/60 then your BLU-RAY player has a better 3:2 pulldown circuit compared to the display. Now if the picture is better when 1080P/24 is received then your displays 3:2 pulldown process is better then the one in the BLU-RAY player.
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post #154 of 350 Old 04-07-2008, 12:13 PM - Thread Starter
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It is not 100% clear but it sounds like in 2008 Mitsubishi might start offering true 1080P/24 LCD flat panels and DLP rear projectors that bypass the 3:2 pulldown process.

These new models mentioned in the article have not been added to the list yet since I am not 100% clear if they bypass the 3:2 pulldown process.

Quote
The 120Hz frame-rate technology also has been improved this year with de-judder techniques to smooth out motion in images.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6548345.html?desc=topstory
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post #155 of 350 Old 04-07-2008, 01:40 PM
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All TV's from panasonic 2008 line-up support this feature. Plasmas and LCD's with 100/120Hz do 4:4 pulldown and the entry models go with 2:2 pulldown. Confirmed in all european panasonic websites.

(i.e) Belgium one:

LZD80

° 10.000 : 1 dynamic contrast ratio / V-real PRO 3
° Intelligent Scene Controller
° 3D Comb filter / 3D Colour Management
° 24p Playback (2:2 pull down) / xvYCC colour support
° VIERA Link / SDHC Card Networkability (HD Photo Viewer)
° Multiwindow PAT / V-Audio / Bottom speaker (2x10W)
° 2000 text pages / Side AV / Swivel (15 degrees)
° Power consumption (Standard): 190W (37"), 150W (32")

LZD85

° 100Hz Motion Picture Pro² with Motion Focus Technology
° 10.000 : 1 dynamic contrast ratio / V-real PRO 3
° Intelligent Scene Controller
° 3D Comb filter / 3D Colour Management
° 24p Playback (4:4 pull down) / xvYCC colour support
° VIERA Link / SDHC Card Networkability (HD Photo Viewer)
° Multiwindow PAT / V-Audio / Bottom speaker (2x10W)
° 2000 text pages / Side AV / Swivel (15 degrees)
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post #156 of 350 Old 04-07-2008, 10:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daviii View Post

All TV's from panasonic 2008 line-up support this feature. Plasmas and LCD's with 100/120Hz do 4:4 pulldown and the entry models go with 2:2 pulldown. Confirmed in all european panasonic websites.

(i.e) Belgium one:

LZD80

° 10.000 : 1 dynamic contrast ratio / V-real PRO 3
° Intelligent Scene Controller
° 3D Comb filter / 3D Colour Management
° 24p Playback (2:2 pull down) / xvYCC colour support
° VIERA Link / SDHC Card Networkability (HD Photo Viewer)
° Multiwindow PAT / V-Audio / Bottom speaker (2x10W)
° 2000 text pages / Side AV / Swivel (15 degrees)
° Power consumption (Standard): 190W (37"), 150W (32")

LZD85

° 100Hz Motion Picture Pro² with Motion Focus Technology
° 10.000 : 1 dynamic contrast ratio / V-real PRO 3
° Intelligent Scene Controller
° 3D Comb filter / 3D Colour Management
° 24p Playback (4:4 pull down) / xvYCC colour support
° VIERA Link / SDHC Card Networkability (HD Photo Viewer)
° Multiwindow PAT / V-Audio / Bottom speaker (2x10W)
° 2000 text pages / Side AV / Swivel (15 degrees)

That is great news for Europeans looking for this feature. Thanks for the information. This main list only includes US models on it and does not cover the entire world. Anyone wanting to create a world wide list (new thread) of displays that support multiplies of the original frame is welcome to do so. All the magazines and newsletters I subscribe to only cover US models.
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post #157 of 350 Old 04-08-2008, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Still missing for some completely unknown reason:

Panasonic Professional TH-50PF10UK
Panasonic Professional TH-65PF10UK
Panasonic Professional TH-50PF10EK
Panasonic Professional TH-65PF10UK

All of these professional broadcast monitors do 48Hz/96Hz.

Those are only 720P. He said 720P sets would not be added to the list.

Panasonic TH-42PH9UK
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post #158 of 350 Old 04-09-2008, 11:43 AM - Thread Starter
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The Panasonic TH-58PZ750U will not be added to the list

Here is the latest review from Home Theater magazine on the Panasonic TH-58PZ750U. This Panasonic converts 1080P/24 material to 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process.

Quote
It will not, however, properly display a 1080p/24 image.

http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/508apana58pz/index.html
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post #159 of 350 Old 04-11-2008, 09:49 AM
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- How about the Sharp Aquos SE94U series?

Does it support 24p? Thank you!
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post #160 of 350 Old 04-11-2008, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s0ulreaver View Post

- How about the Sharp Aquos SE94U series?

Does it support 24p? Thank you!

I do not know if the 120HZ Sharp SE94U correctly handles 1080P/24. Hopefully a review will be released sometime in the future that will tell consumers if the 3:2 pulldown process is bypassed since most manufactories do not label their displays.
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post #161 of 350 Old 04-12-2008, 12:19 PM
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Circuit City had a Sony W3000-series tv on display at my local store...I didn't ask anyone about it, but of ALL the tv's in the store, it looked to be the only one set up to do multiples of 24 without interpolation frames, motion "enhancement", etc...It really was the most easy to watch tv in the store, while i was there....and i usually quite prefer plasma to LCD.
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post #162 of 350 Old 04-13-2008, 01:10 PM - Thread Starter
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The professional review link for the Sony KDL-52XBR5 and KDL-52XBR4 has been updated on the main page with the new April 2008 review of the KDL-52XBR4 (True 5:5 pulldown feature)

When motionflow (Motion Enhancher) is turned off the Sony XBR4 and XBR5 line will perform a true 5:5 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is applied.

Quote
If Motionflow is turned off, the set simply repeats each frame two or five times, depending on the rate of the source signal.

The differences between the XBR4 and XBR5
Quote
Many people ask me about the difference between the XBR4 and XBR5 lines. They are basically identical, with just four minor variations. The XBR5 has a fixed gloss-black bezel, while the XBR4's silver-gray bezel can be replaced with other colors if you purchase an optional kit. The XBR5 also comes with an RS-232 remote-control jack, a longer warranty (18 vs. 12 months), and a $300 premium over the same-size XBR4.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/408sonykdl52/index.html
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post #163 of 350 Old 04-15-2008, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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There needs to be more Simplay HD certified consumer electronics displays and equipment



Over the years I have seen HDCP compatibility problems between HD displays and HD equipment that use the HDMI and DVI connection. Most of the time firmware updates to the troubled device does not work to solve these issues and the problem is with the actual hardware. I have seen people purchase expensive 1080P displays and are forced to use the component video inputs since HDCP and other handshaking problems occur between the display and the HD cable box or HD player. Sometimes the problem is with the display other times it is the device being connected to the display.
The easiest way to avoid this problem is to purchase displays and products that have been Simplay HD certified. Simplay HD is an extensive testing program that makes sure products that use HDMI and DVI with HDCP are working correctly. Currently very few consumer electronics products have passed Simplay HD testing. The Pioneer Kuro's all have passed Simplay HD testing and were rewarded with the Simplay HD logo.

For more information about Simplay HD testing program see the following link

http://www.siliconimage.com/simplayhd.aspx
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post #164 of 350 Old 04-15-2008, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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New April 2008 review on the Pioneer KURO PRO-150FD Plasma HDTV


Highlights from the review

Automatically refreshes 1080P/24 material correctly at 1080P/72 all the time regardless of menu settings
Quote
If the program material is already at 1080p/24, however, conversion to a display frame rate of 72 fps (using repeated frames, not interpolation) takes place automatically, regardless of the setting of the PureCinema control.

Quote
How does the best one-piece digital display we've ever tested, flat panel or otherwise, sound? It's a display with an image so compelling that you might even consider it in preference to a comparably priced projector and screen, despite the bigger, more theater-like, immersive experience a projector can provide.
Pioneer worked feverishly to improve the black levels on its already impressive plasma displays. Project KUROPioneer's name for its own development programhas produced truly jaw-dropping results.
Quote
Based on Pioneer's track record and some of the advanced technology the company displayed at last January's CES, I would not be surprised if its upcoming line of next-generation KURO displays, due later this year, is even better than the current one. But in the here and now, if there's a better-looking, more impressive video display on the market than the PRO-150FD, I'm not aware of it. That includes not only one-piece televisions, but any projector I've reviewedalthough a separate projector and screen can still provide the sort of immersive, theater-like experience that no 60-inch television can claim.
As with the other recent Pioneer models I reviewed for UltimateAVmag.com, a good share of the credit for the performance of this set is due to its stunning black level and excellent shadow detail.
Link to the Home Theater review were quotes are taken from
http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/508piok150/index.html
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post #165 of 350 Old 04-15-2008, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Sony SXRD KDS-60A3000, KDS-55A3000, and KDS-50A3000 refresh rate info

All 3 rear projectors refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ by doing a 4:4 pulldown when both motion enhancer and Motion Naturalizer are turned off.

I just wanted to thank you for this post. I never realized that I had to turn off ME to get 1080p/24 to work properly.
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post #166 of 350 Old 04-16-2008, 04:06 AM
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A little OT, but I was in Best Buy yesterday and saw a Samsung flat panel on an end-cap playing "Pearl Harbor" from a Samsung BD/combo player. I had my toddler with me, so I didn't note the the model numbers, but the display was 1080p/120Hz based on the little stickers all over it, and the player 24Hz. Whatever the reason, I've never seen a picture look more natural or smooth, it was almost weird the kind of "holy sh*t" moment I had. It didn't seem just an incremental difference, and I can't imagine it was just the resolution that did it.

Jack Gilvey
SVS Customer Service

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post #167 of 350 Old 04-18-2008, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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New Review on the Panasonic PT-AE2000U LCD Front Projector confirms 96HZ refresh rate

The list has been updated to show 96HZ refresh and a hyperlink to the home theater review.

Quote
The PT-AE2000U will accept a 1080p/24 source. It adds three repeated (not interpolated) frames to each original frame for a display frame rate of 96 frames per second.

One positive of this projector is that it is under $3500 list price.


The JVC LCOS front projectors that costs a lot more have better black levels then the Panasonic.

Quote
But that's not to say it has better blacks than some of its competition. Really dark scenes look better on, say, either of JVC's current projectors (the DLA-HD1 and the DLA-HD100, plus their DLA-RS1 and DLA-RS2 clones), neither of which uses a dynamic iris of any sort, or the Sony VPL-VW60, which does. But these LCOS designs cost multiples of the Panasonic's price. While the PT-AE2000U doesn't quite escape a mild case of the gray fog that has relegated most LCD home projectors to the budget category, it was rare and limited to the darkest scenes, such as the opening below-deck sequence in Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World. The Panasonic performed respectably here; it just didn't knock me out the way a (very) few other projectors can.

Link to Home Theater review where quotes are taken from:
http://hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/608pana2000u/index1.html
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post #168 of 350 Old 04-18-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

There needs to be more Simplay HD certified consumer electronics displays and equipment

Over the years I have seen HDCP compatibility problems between HD displays and HD equipment that use the HDMI and DVI connection. Most of the time firmware updates to the troubled device does not work to solve these issues and the problem is with the actual hardware. I have seen people purchase expensive 1080P displays and are forced to use the component video inputs since HDCP and other handshaking problems occur between the display and the HD cable box or HD player. Sometimes the problem is with the display other times it is the device being connected to the display.
The easiest way to avoid this problem is to purchase displays and products that have been Simplay HD certified. Simplay HD is an extensive testing program that makes sure products that use HDMI and DVI with HDCP are working correctly. Currently very few consumer electronics products have passed Simplay HD testing. The Pioneer Kuro's all have passed Simplay HD testing and were rewarded with the Simplay HD logo.

For more information about Simplay HD testing program see the following link

http://www.siliconimage.com/simplayhd.aspx

That all sounds good but there is another take on it. Call Mitsubishi with a suspected HDMI problem and you will get asked, what version HDMI cable you are using (fair enough) and if the other component has Simplay certification. If not, its a short phone call - they won't bother with you.

Here's a cut and paste from my Mits DLP manual. This excerpty is continually repeated in the manual:

"These inputs are SimplayHD certified for proper interoperability
with other products certified by Simplay"

The way you word it, SimplayHD assures us of HDMI intreroperability. No sir. SimplayHD certification provides the CE manufacturer with another out.

You would think that Simplay is a torture test wherein the tested equipment has a greater tolerance for others' components. I suspect the opposite and the above excerpt supports that. If Simplay didn't provide a shield for the CE, what would they have to sell? I'm pretty sure Mitsubishi could test TVs for HDMI interoperability? Why license something you don't need unless of course its insurance.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
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post #169 of 350 Old 04-18-2008, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Most likely the problem is with the non Simplay HD certified device that is being hooked up to the Mitsubishi DLP. That device might have incorrect voltages or various other problems that causes the device to not meet the full specification of HDCP over HDMI or DVI. That brand and model of device you are trying to hook up most likely would not have passed Simplay HD standards. There have been a lot of products that have failed the Simplay HD certification process.
It can be a real pain when one can not use HDMI and DVI devices. I have experienced the same frustrating problem. Before Simplay HD certification came along many of the technical support for one company would claim the problem was with the other companies product. With Simplay HD certified equipment one is assured the HDCP over HDMI and DVI specification has been met with many other tests.
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post #170 of 350 Old 04-19-2008, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Most likely the problem is with the non Simplay HD certified device that is being hooked up to the Mitsubishi DLP. That device might have incorrect voltages or various other problems that causes the device to not meet the full specification of HDCP over HDMI or DVI. That brand and model of device you are trying to hook up most likely would not have passed Simplay HD standards. There have been a lot of products that have failed the Simplay HD certification process.
It can be a real pain when one can not use HDMI and DVI devices. I have experienced the same frustrating problem. Before Simplay HD certification came along many of the technical support for one company would claim the problem was with the other companies product. With Simplay HD certified equipment one is assured the HDCP over HDMI and DVI specification has been met with many other tests.

Thanks for the reply. I understand all that and believe me I'm not seeking advice about what to do with a lousy connection or two, been there done that. I take issue with the lionizing of Simplay, because I see the issue much differently.

In one instance that I did experience it was the component that had trouble with my set and it actually had trouble with quite a few sets. No fault of Mits on that one except that Mits refused to get involved because the other component wasn't Simplay certified. That's a helluva disclaimer especially back a couple of years or so when the list of Simplay certed products could fit on a matchbook cover. BTW, the list still isn't very long. I'll bet Simplay certification paid for itself for Mits a hundred times over in customer/tech service costs, short phone calls. My point is that it is being used and abused for the wrong reason, a tech service shield instead of an interoperability warranty.

We all have had some sort of problem with HDMI connectivity at one time or another, so the idea of a mandatory common tested interface that passes some form of cert process gets my overwhelming vote. I'd even lobby congress for it.

TBS, I have a problem with the Simplay implementation. Simplay tests with other Simplay certified devices so instead of seeking the widest field of play for interoperability it narrows the field to only other certified devices. So the way I see it, a Simplay certified device could conceivably have less interoperability than a non-certed component simply because the sink and source are more in tune with each other. Its easy to certify a process when you absolutely know the other component is sending you a certed signal. Piece o' cake.

Here's some cut and paste from the Simplay website. The same or similar language is carried throughout their marketing brochures, etc:

"Our laboratories also test products for interoperability, to make sure all certified devices work together flawlessly."

And

"Interoperability Testing
Interoperability testing focuses on plug-testing of multiple device types, where the tested component is connected to a wide variety of other verified components. It identifies configuration and usage scenarios that may cause failures or degraded performance."

Every so often I read where the Simplay certification gets a very positive write up. At a glance it sure makes sense but I think this is an implementation where we need to pay attention to the man behind the curtain.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
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post #171 of 350 Old 04-29-2008, 08:02 AM
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Just a note of correction.

The KDS-A3000 SXRD Sony RPTV series refreshes correctly at 120hz, not 96hz.

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post #172 of 350 Old 04-29-2008, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Just a note of correction.

The KDS-A3000 SXRD Sony RPTV series refreshes correctly at 120hz, not 96hz.

According to this review link the discontinued classic KDS-XXA3000 series refreshes 1080P/24 material at 96HZ. 60HZ is of course frame repeated and refreshed at 120HZ refresh rate.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13186044&postcount=46
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post #173 of 350 Old 04-30-2008, 11:17 AM
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Last night I discovered my new Optoma HD803 would accept 1080P24 from a Panasonic BD30 Blu-ray player. This was surprising, since the Optoma HD80 (virtually identical to the HD803) will not accept this signal. Whether the HD803 employs the the proper refresh rate is something I could not make the projector tell me. Motion looked very smooth on screen, but I've never been particularly sensitive to judder artifacts.

MIKE

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
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post #174 of 350 Old 05-04-2008, 11:22 AM
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Reviews are coming in on the Panasonic TH-50PZ800. Looks like it is 1080p24@48hz.. (and it flickers).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1007175
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post #175 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 01:11 AM
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These two displays do not offer "motion enhancer," despite some confusing wording on the product pages. Sony tech support (and some Amazon product pages) claim that these smaller XBR6s can correctly handle 24p material and are 120hz sets, though they don't have "motion enhancer" and aren't advertised as 120hz sets.

There's a debate still going on in the owners thread as to what exactly these sets do, but you might want to qualify these as unconfirmed for the time being.
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post #176 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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The NuVision NVU52DCM LCD TV and other NuVision LCD flat panel models will not be added to the list



The high-end NuVision LCD screens are listed in the specs as having a vertical refresh rate between 48HZ-72HZ but when a 1080P/24 signal is applied they refresh the signal at 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown method. There is no benefit to 1080P/24 when 3:2 pulldown is used. Currently only one rear projector from Nuvision is on the list since it is known to display 1080P/24 on the screen at 72HZ similar to a film projector in the theater.

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Another feature that is largelybut not entirelywasted is this set's ability to accept a 1080p/24 signal. Why is it wasted? Because the NuVision displays such a signal at 60Hz, which means the video processor applies 3:2 pulldown, repeating one frame three times, the next frame twice, the next frame three times, and so on, thus losing the benefit of 24 frames per second.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/508nu/index.html
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post #177 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 10:27 AM
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What about the 47PFL9732 and/or the 47PFL7403/7603?

System 1: Samsung UN55F9000 3D/4k UHDTV, Samsung BD-7500 3D/4k blu-ray player, Sony PS3 player, Yamaha RX-V573 7.1 Receiver, Sony 5.1 (and counting) Speakers
System 2: Toshiba HDTV, LG LHB536 BR HTiB

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post #178 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ausmusj View Post

What about the 47PFL9732 and/or the 47PFL7403/7603?

This list only includes US models. The models you provided are European or international models. I searched for information on the Philips models you listed but could not find any reviews on how the 1080P/24 feature works. I do not know if the 120HZ Philips flat panels are true 5:5 pulldown. They may or may not bypass the 3:2 pulldown process.
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post #179 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JadedRaverLA View Post

These two displays do not offer "motion enhancer," despite some confusing wording on the product pages. Sony tech support (and some Amazon product pages) claim that these smaller XBR6s can correctly handle 24p material and are 120hz sets, though they don't have "motion enhancer" and aren't advertised as 120hz sets.

There's a debate still going on in the owners thread as to what exactly these sets do, but you might want to qualify these as unconfirmed for the time being.

Did Sony change their specs on the XBR6 models before final release? According to this link they were suppose to be 120HZ with the option to turn off motionflow. Thanks for the info.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6535289.html?desc=topstory
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post #180 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 11:49 AM
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What About BenQ W5000 Front Projector
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