Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Did Sony change their specs on the XBR6 models before final release? According to this link they were suppose to be 120HZ with the option to turn off motionflow. Thanks for the info.

http://www.twice.com/article/CA6535289.html?desc=topstory

The 40" and above XBR6s are completely different from the 32" and 37" models. The 40" and above XBR6s, XBR7s, XBR8s, W series, and Z series all are 120Hz with motionflow. All S series, V series, and the 32" and 37" XBR6s, are listed as offering "True 24p input" but they don't have motionflow and aren't generally advertised as being 120Hz, so there is still a fair amount of debate as to how they are handling 24p input.

I read the Twice article... it seems to be cofused. The leaked Sony 2008 Bravia spec sheets only mentioned 120Hz and motionflow on the XBR6s that were 40"+. Also, the 32" and 37" XBR6 models ship with the same manual as the V-series... and no mention is made of 120Hz or motionflow.
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post #182 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

This list only includes US models. The models you provided are European or international models. I searched for information on the Philips models you listed but could not find any reviews on how the 1080P/24 feature works. I do not know if the 120HZ Philips flat panels are true 5:5 pulldown. They may or may not bypass the 3:2 pulldown process.

Actually, they are US models - the 9732 isn't as readily available in the US anymore (it was an 07 model, moved out for the 08 models), but is still purchasable in the US. The 7403/7603 series are the new 08 models - the 42PFL7403 (42" version, but should be the same specs as the 47") is available now, with the 47" 7403 and the 7603 (same models, but with the Ambilight feature) coming Real Soon Now.

So, for two (current) researchable models, it should be the 47PFL9732, and the 42PFL7403.

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post #183 of 350 Old 05-06-2008, 02:27 PM
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ts.enigma -- According to Art Feierman (http://www.projectorreviews.com/benq...agequality.php - last paragraph) the BenQ W5000 does support 1080p/24, but no frequency mulitple is mentioned:
Quote:


Fortunately, the W5000 like most new 1080p projectors supports 1080p/24fps, which eliminates the need for 3:2 pull-down, and thus, eliminates the judder.

The PJC review says the same. However, the W5000 only has HDMI 1.2 inputs, not HDMI 1.3, FWIW.

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #184 of 350 Old 05-07-2008, 07:44 PM
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The new Pioneers should be added to the list.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PDP-6020FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-111FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-151FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-101FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-141FD (72HZ)

They're certain to have the same 72hz mode the 2007 Pioneers use.

Patience has its rewards.
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post #185 of 350 Old 05-08-2008, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausmusj View Post

Actually, they are US models - the 9732 isn't as readily available in the US anymore (it was an 07 model, moved out for the 08 models), but is still purchasable in the US. The 7403/7603 series are the new 08 models - the 42PFL7403 (42" version, but should be the same specs as the 47") is available now, with the 47" 7403 and the 7603 (same models, but with the Ambilight feature) coming Real Soon Now.

So, for two (current) researchable models, it should be the 47PFL9732, and the 42PFL7403.

Thanks for the information. The world is changing fast. I see now that Philips no longer sales TV's in North America. I was wondering why I could not find any Philips TV's at the local retail stores anymore. Now I know why. A couple of years ago Philips HDTV's could be found at Walmart.

http://gizmodo.com/377355/philips-wo...merica-anymore

So now one looking for a Philips TV might want to purchase the lower cost Funai brand. Electronics keep getting cheaper I just hope quality does not suffer too much.
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post #186 of 350 Old 05-08-2008, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

The new Pioneers should be added to the list.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PDP-6020FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-111FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-151FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-101FD (72HZ)
Pioneer PRO-141FD (72HZ)

They're certain to have the same 72hz mode the 2007 Pioneers use.

Thanks for the information. The list will be updated soon with the info. Good to see some new Pioneers that offer 5X deeper blacks compared to the 2007 line. I also see that Pioneer has a LCOS rear projector with deeper blacks which is based on the high-end JVC projectors.

http://gizmodo.com/387881/pioneers-2008-kuro-line-thinner-blacker-plasmas-and-an-lcos-projector-but-no-lcds
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post #187 of 350 Old 05-08-2008, 12:34 PM
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What about the Sharp AQUOS LC46SE94U?

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post #188 of 350 Old 05-08-2008, 11:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausmusj View Post

What about the Sharp AQUOS LC46SE94U?

Not sure have not seen a review yet that mentions how 1080P/24 is refreshed on that model.
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post #189 of 350 Old 05-08-2008, 11:28 PM - Thread Starter
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** Important update to the main list **




The main purpose of this list is to provide an easy to use reference tool for those considering to purchasing a new 1080P display that offers true film quality 1080P/24 refresh rates. In order to make the list more useful and accurate I have created 3 separate lists.

List number 1: Will only list the current in production or coming soon true 1080P/24 displays that have a documented manufactories spec sheet, instruction manual, or professional review that mentions the multiplies of the 24fps feature. Now people searching for a new display can view just the current in production or coming soon models.

List number 2: Below the first list is the second list which contains all the discontinued true 1080P/24 displays. On this list one can search the Internet or retail stores for new or used bargain prices on clearance displays that offer true 24fps refresh rates.

List number 3: This list which is below list number 2 contains 1080P displays that are pending to be added to list number 1 or 2. The manufactories spec sheet or professional review is not available yet that documents the true 1080P/24 feature.

Remember these 3 lists are not 100% accurate and items can be removed or added as more information is learned about a display. The most accurate displays on the list will be the ones that have professional reviews written when the link is clicked on.
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post #190 of 350 Old 05-09-2008, 04:07 PM
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What about Samsung's 81 series (especially the LN-T5781F)?
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post #191 of 350 Old 05-09-2008, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eben View Post

What about Samsung's 81 series (especially the LN-T5781F)?

The 81 series are 60hz displays.

Making the most out of what I got.
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post #192 of 350 Old 05-10-2008, 11:00 AM
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I can't see any mention of the Samsung HLxxA650 & HL61A750 rear projector models, whether positive or negative. My understanding is that these are 120Hz sets, so there's a chance for the proper 24p display. Any word?
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post #193 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrstevens421 View Post

The 81 series are 60hz displays.

Bummer.
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post #194 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post

I can't see any mention of the Samsung HLxxA650 & HL61A750 rear projector models, whether positive or negative. My understanding is that these are 120Hz sets, so there's a chance for the proper 24p display. Any word?

I do not know for sure how those rear projectors from Samsung handle 1080P/24.
So far all the reviews on all Samsung rear projectors and Mitsubishi rear projectors have either not mentioned how 1080P/24 is handled or the reviews mentioned that they use a 3:2 pulldown process which has no benefit to 1080P/24. To my knowledge Samsung and Mitsubishi are the only companies left making rear projectors. I prefer rear projectors over LCD flat screens since in general they have a better picture quality. Samsung and Mitsubishi need to start offering the multiplies of the original frame method for rear projectors or some BLU-RAY owners will choose LCD screens. As the price of LCD flat screens keeps falling one day the LCD flat screen price might be cheaper or the same price as a rear projector. When and if that happens perhaps rear projectors all together will no longer be made anymore. I would not be surprised to see rear projectors discontinued in 2-3 years due to low consumer demand. I hope that does not happen since I prefer the picture quality of rear projectors over most LCD screens.
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post #195 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Mitsubishi HC6000 LCD front projector




In the June 2008 Sound and Vision magazine on page 62 and 63 there is a detailed review on this front projector. On page 62 it mentions the following quote:
The HC6000 will also accept a 24p input from a Blu-ray Disc player, automatically frame-doubling the signal to a 48P display
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post #196 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

I do not know for sure how those rear projectors from Samsung handle 1080P/24.
So far all the reviews on all Samsung rear projectors and Mitsubishi rear projectors have either not mentioned how 1080P/24 is handled or the reviews mentioned that they use a 3:2 pulldown process which has no benefit to 1080P/24. To my knowledge Samsung and Mitsubishi are the only companies left making rear projectors. I prefer rear projectors over LCD flat screens since in general they have a better picture quality. Samsung and Mitsubishi need to start offering the multiplies of the original frame method for rear projectors or some BLU-RAY owners will choose LCD screens. As the price of LCD flat screens keeps falling one day the LCD flat screen price might be cheaper or the same price as a rear projector. When and if that happens perhaps rear projectors all together will no longer be made anymore. I would not be surprised to see rear projectors discontinued in 2-3 years due to low consumer demand. I hope that does not happen since I prefer the picture quality of rear projectors over most LCD screens.

Thanks for reply. Yes, I too prefer the rear projectors and was really hoping that since Samsung LCD screens with the same series (A650) handle it correctly that maybe their DLP do it as well. Is there any way to test it or are we at the mercy of the reviewers?
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post #197 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 05:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry View Post

Thanks for reply. Yes, I too prefer the rear projectors and was really hoping that since Samsung LCD screens with the same series (A650) handle it correctly that maybe their DLP do it as well. Is there any way to test it or are we at the mercy of the reviewers?

There should be a way to test this with proper hardware and software and test patterns.
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post #198 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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JVC DLA-RS1 and DLA-RS2 LCOS Front Projectors have been added to the list




The JVC Front projectors are some of the best Front Projectors on the market with excellent black levels and contrast ratio's. All of JVC's LCOS Front projectors refresh 1080P/24 sources at 96HZ and 60HZ signals are refreshed at 120HZ.

The DLA-HD1 and DLA-RS1 is almost exactly the same projector.
Quote
According to the company, they differ in only two ways. The RS1 is sold through JVC's professional channels, and the HD1 is sold through consumer outlets. In addition, the HD1 is black and silver (see photo) and the RD1 is all black. But with respect to features, performance, and price, the projectors are identical.

http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/207jvchd1/index.html


The DLA-HD100 and DLA-RS2 is almost exactly the same projector.
Quote
Priced at $8000, the next-gen DLA-HD100 has an identical twin in the DLA-RS2, which differs only in that it is distributed through professional rather than consumer channels. The match between these models is even closer than between the DLA-HD1 and RS1 (the pro version of the HD1). I will refer only to the HD100 in the remainder of this review since that's the model I looked at. But all comments should apply equally to the RS2.

http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/508jvcpro/
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post #199 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Review on Samsung LN52A650 (5:5 120HZ LCD display)



The Samsung 650 series web link on the main list has been updated to include the CNET review. The Samsung LCD display will refresh 1080P/24 material at 120HZ using true 5:5 pulldown when Auto Motion Plus is turned off. When AMP is off each 24fps frame is repeated 5X times until 120HZ is reached.
Just because this set and other LCD screens on the list do true 5:5 pulldown it does not mean they perform the pulldown perfectly. In the CNET review the reviewer could not tell the difference between 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 with the source material they were using on both Sony and Samsung 120HZ LCD displays. If one watches a lot of BLU-RAY movies on a high-end JVC or Sony LCOS Front Projector or a Pioneer Plasma screen one can see the difference in fast moving scenes and camera panning shots. The judder is greatly reduced on some displays and the image has a more film like quality compared to smooth 60HZ video.
Displays that do true 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, and 120HZ refresh rates are not all created equal. The specs on paper might look good but in reality some displays do to response time limitations or other reasons do not perform good in real world performance. A good 48HZ LCD Front Projector, 48HZ DLP Front projector, and 96HZ LCOS Front projector many times reduces the judder better then a 120HZ LCD flat panel screen.
To some this 1080P/24 and 1080P/60 feature is a minor feature since most of us all have been watching 60HZ 3:2 pulldown for most of our lives. I have seen the film like quality that good 1080P/24 displays have and I prefer it too displays that do not offer that feature. This feature is so important that the BLU-RAY format places 24fps on all film based BLU-RAY discs. Many professional videotape sources are also 1080P/24. When one is in the market to purchase a new 1080P display it makes since to get a display that handles 1080P/24 correctly.

Quote from CNET review

"We also turned AMP off, along with the Sony's de-judder processing, and switched our PS3 to 1080p/24 mode. We really couldn't tell the difference between 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 on either of the sets, so we suspect they don't perform the perfect 5x conversion from 24 frames to 120. Samsung's engineers (along with Sony's) claim the 52LN650 can perform this conversion, but if so, it doesn't make much difference.

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/samsung-ln52a650/4505-6482_7-32887597.html?tag=prod.txt.1
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post #200 of 350 Old 05-13-2008, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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The following Sony LCD screens have been moved from list number 1 to list number 3 for further verification


In a prior news release it was mentioned that the Sony KDL-XBR6 series had Motion Enhancer technology with 120HZ. It appears that the specs have changed before the product was released. According to Sony’s instruction manual’s motion Enhancer and 120HZ is not even an option offered on the new Sony’s. The following displays might still have 120HZ but it is not mentioned in the instruction manual. It does mention Cinemotion feature which perhaps might refresh 1080P/24 at 48HZ or 120HZ. The tread in electronics seems to be moving toward the Walmart society where the goal is to eliminate expensive nice features in order to offer a product that is lower cost to purchase. Hopefully Sony did not drop 120HZ from the following new models in order to offer a cheaper price product. 120HZ is needed to reduce motion blur on LCD. Some companies were planning on coming out with 240HZ LCD’s that even greatly improve on LCD motion blur. If 240HZ LCD’s make it to market it will be interesting to see if they can start to out perform Plasma screens in some areas.

Now located on list number 3 pending a review or official spec sheet

Sony KDL-37XBR6 (1080P/24 might be refreshed correctly with Cinemotion)
Sony KDL-32XBR6 (1080P/24 might be refreshed correctly with Cinemotion)
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post #201 of 350 Old 05-14-2008, 06:08 AM
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However the z series is their supposed top of the range, above the x and xf series, and the specs for the z series explicitly state 24fps, 5:5 pulldown, as you can see here

http://www.home-entertainment.toshib...d?opendocument
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post #202 of 350 Old 05-15-2008, 04:40 PM
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Here are links to the Elite Pioneer 9g PDF brochures, confirming the 72hz 3:3.

PRO-111FD.pdf
PRO-151FD.pdf

Patience has its rewards.
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post #203 of 350 Old 05-15-2008, 04:49 PM
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.....and the Non-Elites.

PDP-5020.pdf
PDP-6020.pdf

Patience has its rewards.
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post #204 of 350 Old 05-16-2008, 03:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Sony KDL-52XBR4 review in June 2008 Home Theater magazine



For those interested in the Sony XBR4 and XBR5 LCD flat panel screens there is a review on the KDL-52XBR4 on page 74-76 in the June 2008 Home Theater magazine.

Highlights from the review regarding 1080P/24

Quote
If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each frame is simply repeated as many times needed to get 120HZ, with no interpolation
So yes the Sony XBR4's and Sony XBR5's properly refresh 1080P/24 similar to a film projector in the movie theater.

Some negative and positives of having motionflow turned on
Quote
More and more LCD HDTV's are designing to operate at 120HZ. When done correctly, 120 HZ operation can minimize motion blur, an ongoing issue with LCD (but, in my opinion, not a deal breaker on most recent designs).
Motionflow is Sony's name for its 120 Hz technology, and it works as advertised. It can smooth motion in a starling fashion. But it can also make a 24-frame-per-second, film based source look like video. This can be jarring, particularly to a film purist. If you must use this feature, I recommend you stick to the standard setting and engage it only on video-based programming, such as sports. Avoid it on movies.

So motion enhancer (motion flow) can improve the picture on some 60HZ video programs, but at the cost of adding artifacts to the picture once and a while. Motion Enhancer should be turned off when watching 1080P/24 BLU-RAY's if one wants the image to look closer to film quality instead of a smooth 60HZ video quality.
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post #205 of 350 Old 05-16-2008, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Marantz VP-11S2 DLP Front Projector (Has been added to the list) (48HZ refresh)



In the June 2008 issue (#132) of Widescreen review magazine there is a very detailed in depth 6 page review on the Marantz VP-11S2 DLP Front Projector starting on page 20. Of course ultra high-end 3 chip DLP projectors are better quality but they cost much more then this $15,000 single chip DLP projector. Widescreen Review is claiming this new single chip DLP is the best DLP front projector they have every reviewed.

Highlights from the review
Quote
The Marantz VP-11S2 is a new 1080P DLP Front Projector that replaces the previous VP-11S1 flagship projector.
The Marantz VP-11S2 1080P DLP front projector is the first projector I have reviewed with Texas instruments new DC4 DLP technology. It produced the highest full-field contrast ratio I have measured from a DLP projector, and justifies the price premium over its sibling, the VP-15S1.
Plus the VP-11S2 will display pixel-perfect 1080P/24 native video from an HD-DVD or BLU-RAY Disc player without adding motion judder.
The VP-11S2 has an adjustable (4X, 5X, 6X) speed, seven-segment color wheel.

1080P/24 feature with 48HZ refresh brief highlights (page 28 quotes)

The review has 2 long paragraphs regarding this frame rate conversion. Here are some brief highlights from the review.

Video frame rates used for 24P film sources are normally 23.976(24/1.001) Hz, which the projector frame doubles at 47.952 Hz. Occasionally, sources produce rates that are exactly 60Hz or 24 Hz, although that is not common and not recommended. The auto 2 mode displays at 60Hz, 50Hz, and 48 Hz to provide compatibility with those signals (24HZ signals are frame doubled to 48HZ).

Basically the review mentions that there are two auto modes and one manual mode for frame rate conversion so it offers the greatest compatibility with just about any player or source that is connected to the display.
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post #206 of 350 Old 05-16-2008, 03:15 AM - Thread Starter
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3-D 4K Cinema and maybe one day home 3-D 1080P BLU-RAY movies



Beginning on page 58 of the June 2008 Widescreen review magazine is part 1 of how 3-D Cinema technology works. What is interesting about this review is that currently the new 3-D technology only works with DLP technology which is used in 97% of Digital cinema's. .

Qoute
However, DLP is not the only projector technology approved for use in digital cinemas. Sony's SXRD's LCOS technology, with 4K resolution (4096 X 2160) is also out there, although on comparatively few screens. Sadly, Sony's current 4K projectors are not capable of single-projector 3D, but the company says it's working on it.

I do not know if 3-D will every take off in home cinema. I am sure if it becomes really popular in theaters that over a 10 year period consumers would start purchasing new 1080P 3-D capable displays with 3-D BLU-RAY movies. I would like to see good quality 3-D technology become popular then perhaps one day all movies will be produced in 3-D. It could be 20 before all movies are produced in 3-D. It all depends on how fast the technology takes off.
If 3-D does become popular at home I might create another list called 3-D displays that proper refresh 1080P at multiplies of the original frame since the frame rate works differently when watching a 3-D movie.

This is a interesting quote from Widescreen Review to read about the frame rate for 3-D projectors

The solution is the same in both cases: flash (refresh) the images multiple times during each frame period. The minimum is twice per frame, giving 48 flashes per second. A standard film projector does this using a double-bladed shutter. For a digital 3-D projector, 48 flashes per second for each eye are accomplished by using left-right-right sequences during each frame period, resulting in a total of 96 images per second.
However a good number of people can still see flicker with 48 flashes per second. That's just as true, by the way film as it is for digital projection, but screen illumination levels for the former are usually much lower (which is to say, most film screens are seriously under illuminated!). The brighter the image, the higher the refresh rate at which you can still detect flicker. The solution is to triple flash, producing 72 flashes per second. A film projector requires a triple-bladed shutter to do that, which is uncommon. In digital 3-D projector, left-eye and right-eye images alternate three times during every frame period, for a total of 144 images per second.

To reduce or eliminate the flicker in film the refresh rate needs to keep increasing. As screen brightness keeps increasing on displays we are going to need faster refresh rates one day like 10:10 pulldown 240HZ or higher.
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post #207 of 350 Old 05-16-2008, 03:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDPeeT View Post

Here are links to the Elite Pioneer 9g PDF brochures, confirming the 72hz 3:3.

PRO-111FD.pdf
PRO-151FD.pdf

Thanks a lot for the 4 links to the PDF official Pioneer documentation. These displays will be moved from list 3 to list 1 very soon. List 1 is the current in production or coming soon displays that have been verified. I had no doubt the Pioneer's were 72HZ. Now there is documentation to back it up.
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post #208 of 350 Old 05-16-2008, 03:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by docchris View Post

However the z series is their supposed top of the range, above the x and xf series, and the specs for the z series explicitly state 24fps, 5:5 pulldown, as you can see here

http://www.home-entertainment.toshib...d?opendocument

Thanks for the information. This list only includes US models. The Z model is a UK version and maybe someone that has more international resources then I will one day start a worldwide 1080P/24 display list. One thing that is interesting to me about the link you provided is that it says the display is 100HZ and it also says the display has 5:5 pulldown. This would have to mean the Z series supports both 120HZ and 100Hz refresh rates. 50HZ PAL material would be refreshed at 100HZ and 1080P/24 would be refreshed at 120HZ. Hopefully Toshiba did not do a misprint and mean 96HZ 4:4. Of course 96HZ is also acceptable refresh rate.
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The following Sony W and Z series LCD flat panel displays have been added to the main list

According to Sony's website the following W and Z series flat panels use the exact same 120Hz Motion Enhancer technology as the XBR4 and XBR5 displays. To learn more about this 5:5 pulldown technology click on the following review of the XBR4 Sony display.

http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/907sonyxbr4/

As soon as a professional review is published on the W and Z series that mentions the 1080P/24 feature and how it works the link on the main page will be updated. For now one can read the XBR4 review to see how the 120HZ feature works.

Sony KDL-52W4100 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
Sony KDL-46W4100 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
Sony KDL-40W4100 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
Sony KDL-46Z4100/B (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
Sony KDL-46Z4100/S (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
Sony KDL-40Z4100/B (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
Sony KDL-40Z4100/S (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Motion Enhancer is turned off)
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4 new Pioneer 2008 1080P Plasma’s have been added to the list

Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) ($5,000 manufactories suggested list price) PRO-111FD.pdf

Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60” Plasma (72HZ) ($6,500 manufactories suggested list price) PRO-151FD.pdf

Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) ($4,000 manufactories suggested list price) PDP-5020.pdf

Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60” Plasma (72Hz) ($5,500 manufactories suggested list price) PDP-6020.pdf

Some Positive comments about the new Pioneer Plasma displays:

I am glad to hear that the new 9th generation Pioneer Plasmas will have 5X deeper black levels compared to the discontinued 8th generation Pioneer Kuro’s. Of course we will need to wait for a professional review to see how much better quality picture the 9th generation Kuro’s really are. When comparing last years top of the line 60 inch Elite to this year’s 60 inch Elite one will soon discover that not only is this year’s Kuro in theory a better quality picture but also Pioneer was able to do it at $1,000 cheaper. The PDP-150FD list price was $7,500 and the new PDP-151FD is only $6,500. This will make some consumers happy.

Negative comments about the new Pioneer Plasma displays:

It is great consumers can purchase a 5X deeper black Pioneer Plasma at a cheaper price. The $1,000 cheaper price on the Elite 60 inch comes at a price. Pioneer to cut costs eliminated features from its 2008 Kuro line. The first feature that is missing from the new 2008 Kuro displays is the one way cable card technology. On the 2007 models one could use the built in tuner in the Pioneer and subscribe to premium movie channels without the need to rent a external cable box. Most other manufactories have eliminated the cable card from their product also. One problem with the one way cable card technology is that one still needed a cable box for Video on demand and PPV movies. There is a two way cable card technology available now but all display manufactories so far have decided not to include 2 way QAM tuners with cable card technology and only a few companies still offer one way cable card slots. Cable card features over the years has been known to add several hundred dollars to the cost of a display when the technology was first introduced. Hopefully in the future manufactories will move to a cheaper better two way software downloadable version that is integrated in displays.
Another cost-cutting feature removed from the 2008 Kuro line is the fact they now only have 2 tuners instead of 3. Last years Kuro line had 1 ATSC/QAM tuner with 2 NTSC tuners. This years Kuro has 1 ATSC/QAM tuner and 1 NTSC tuner. Of course on Feb 17th 2009 all over the air broadcasts are switching to ATSC and the NTSC tuner for people that do not have cable TV will not be a issue. The NTSC tuner will still be used on some cable systems for a few more years until cable companies switch to 100% QAM. So if you are really into Picture and Picture there is now only two tuners instead of three tuners.
Dropping the cable card and one NTSC tuner are minor issues for me. The picture quality is the most important thing I am concerned about. One low cost feature that is missing that could not have cost more than $30 is the fact that the built in RF antenna/cable A/B switch on the new Pioneer Plasmas is eliminated. Instead of 2 RF inputs this years models only have one RF input. On last year’s 2007 Kuro models there was a built in RF A/B switch that allows one to switch between cable TV and an outdoor/indoor antenna. This small low cost feature really bothers me. Of course most people watch either satellite or cable TV and do not bother with a outdoor antenna. Local HD broadcasts using an indoor/outdoor antenna usually is better quality then what the satellite and cable company provide. Now this years Kuro owners that have both cable TV without the cable box and a indoor/outdoor antenna will need to purchase a remote control RF A/B switch at Radio Shack for around $40. I wish manufactories would not eliminate low cost features that are important to some people.
Another feature that is missing this year is the free interactive on screen TV guide. For those that rent a cable box or subscribe to satellite TV this is not a big issue. That was just a few of the things I noticed that is missing from this years Kuro line. If one connects a cable box or satellite receiver to the display one will not notice most of these features are missing. Since I watch mostly BLU-RAY’s I do not rent or own a satellite receiver or cable box.
Another thing that is missing is last years model had 2 component video inputs but this year there is only 1 component input. All the other inputs like 4 HDMI, 3 composite, and 1 S-Video are exactly the same compared to last years model. Many years ago it use to be that for every composite video input there was also one S-Video jack per composite video jack. For example the Pioneer Kuro has 3 composite video jacks for legacy 480I equipment but it only has 1 S-Video jack. It would be nice to have a shared S-Video jack on each one of those 3 composite video jacks. There are people that still own legacy S-VHS machines and other equipment that would like to see 3 S-Video inputs that are shared with 3 composite inputs. It seems to be the tread on all brands and models of TV’s to either eliminate the legacy 480I S-Video jack or to only include one S-Video jack.
This years Ethernet connection on the Elite Kuro is still only 100Mbps per second. It would have been ideal to have a 1000Mbps Ethernet connection for those that have gigabyte wired home networks.

I actually wish Pioneer would raise the cost $1,000 on the Plasmas and bring back some neat feature that I like. It appear that this years model is not SimplayHD certified also. Over all most consumers will prefer the lower price with less features compared to last years models.

** All above comparisons were made using the above Pioneer official spec sheets for the 9th generation models. My only hope is that the spec sheets are wrong and when the final product is released that some of the features I like on the 8th generation 2007 models will still be on the 9th generation Pioneer 2008 models. **


UPDATE:
The comments above originally posted on May 16th 2008 regarding features that were removed are correct. Below is a update to the offical spec sheets that was just released by Pioneer.

4 new Pioneer 2008 1080P Plasma’s officially have been released (link to Pioneer PDF spec sheets updated)


Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) ($5,000 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PRO-111FD.pdf

Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60” Plasma (72HZ) ($6,500 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PRO-151FD.pdf

Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) ($4,000 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PDP-5020FD.pdf

Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60” Plasma (72Hz) ($5,500 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PDP-6020FD.pdf
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