Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 8 - AVS Forum
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post #211 of 350 Old 05-17-2008, 11:35 AM
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waiting with great interest for detail information, and a verdict, on the new LG 50PG60...
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post #212 of 350 Old 05-17-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

waiting with great interest for detail information, and a verdict, on the new LG 50PG60...

According to the owners manual, it does. I was looking through it online today.

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post #213 of 350 Old 05-18-2008, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

According to the owners manual, it does. I was looking through it online today.

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well, looking at the manual, page 81, most of the stuff refer to LCD... i don't see 50PG60 mentioned...?

very not clear at all to me.
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post #214 of 350 Old 05-18-2008, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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So far all the reviews on older models of LG displays have mentioned they use a 3:2 pulldown process which has no benefit to 1080P/24. I will keep watching the reviews and news releases to see if LG starts offering true 5:5 pulldown.
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post #215 of 350 Old 05-18-2008, 09:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Some LG and Panasonic displays are going to be THX certified. Most likely the THX certification will require no 3:2 pulldown when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. Hopefully displaying 24fps at multiplies of the original frame rate is a THX requirement to be certified. I would be very surprised if it was not included in the THX process. 100% of all movie theater screens refresh at multiplies of 24fps.
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post #216 of 350 Old 05-19-2008, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

well, looking at the manual, page 81, most of the stuff refer to LCD... i don't see 50PG60 mentioned...?

very not clear at all to me.

My bad. I was looking at the LG. After looking closely this morning, it appears they have the same user manual.

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post #217 of 350 Old 05-20-2008, 02:25 PM
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I noticed that the Sony KDS-60A3000 is listed. However, I have the previous year's version, the KDS-60A2000.

I am pretty sure it is the same tv as the 3000 with a slightly different look, but I just want to make sure that my set will work.
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post #218 of 350 Old 05-20-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

My bad. I was looking at the LG. After looking closely this morning, it appears they have the same user manual.

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o.k. the LG website has been updated.

here is the link for the 50PG60, then you can download the specification.

3:2 pull down....

http://us.lge.com/products/model/det...__50PG60.jhtml
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post #219 of 350 Old 05-20-2008, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

o.k. the LG website has been updated.

here is the link for the 50PG60, then you can download the specification.

3:2 pull down....

http://us.lge.com/products/model/det...__50PG60.jhtml

Unfortunately, it's still the same user manual for all their models. Pretty pathetic. Plasma and LCD are different beasts. So the LG 50 outputs 48hz, and the LG60 and 70 outputs 120hz (5:5)

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post #220 of 350 Old 05-21-2008, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconbeard View Post

I noticed that the Sony KDS-60A3000 is listed. However, I have the previous year's version, the KDS-60A2000.

I am pretty sure it is the same tv as the 3000 with a slightly different look, but I just want to make sure that my set will work.


Nope, different set. Processing is much different.
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post #221 of 350 Old 05-21-2008, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

o.k. the LG website has been updated.

here is the link for the 50PG60, then you can download the specification.

3:2 pull down....

http://us.lge.com/products/model/det...__50PG60.jhtml

Well that is a disappointment with the LG. According to the spec sheet it does not mention how 1080P/24 is handled. The fluid motion of 180HZ is good for only 60HZ material. The actual panel refresh rate is 60HZ with some type of virtual 180Hz effect. I still would like to see a review on this LG product. It appears the THX certification process does not cover 24fps true refresh rates. The 1080P/24 signal being refreshed at multiplies of the original frame rate similar to what a movie projector does appears to be a minor issue for THX or LG did not mention the feature in their spec sheet.

LG products will not be added to the list at this time

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004174/h_50pg60_spec_sheet.pdf

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004173/h_60pg60_spec_sheet.pdf
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post #222 of 350 Old 05-21-2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

[size=3][font=Calibri]
LG products will not be added to the list at this time

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004174/h_50pg60_spec_sheet.pdf

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004173/h_60pg60_spec_sheet.pdf

The owner's manual does say that the LG60 and 70 series (LCD) does 5:5 pulddown with True Motion Off and Real Cinema On. The 50 series outputs 48hz. Pg 81

http://us.lge.com/download/product/f...G60_manual.pdf

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post #223 of 350 Old 05-21-2008, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r1dude57 View Post

Nope, different set. Processing is much different.

So you you know how my set will handle 1080P/24 signals? I cannot find anything in the manual.
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post #224 of 350 Old 05-21-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

Well that is a disappointment with the LG. According to the spec sheet it does not mention how 1080P/24 is handled. The fluid motion of 180HZ is good for only 60HZ material. The actual panel refresh rate is 60HZ with some type of virtual 180Hz effect. I still would like to see a review on this LG product. It appears the THX certification process does not cover 24fps true refresh rates. The 1080P/24 signal being refreshed at multiplies of the original frame rate similar to what a movie projector does appears to be a minor issue for THX or LG did not mention the feature in their spec sheet.

LG products will not be added to the list at this time

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004174/h_50pg60_spec_sheet.pdf

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004173/h_60pg60_spec_sheet.pdf

It is a little disappointing. The spec pdf lists 3:2 as a feature so it must accept the 1080p24fps signal and then do th 2:3 pulldown unless it does pulldown for a 480i signal and 2:2,, 3:3 etc, for a 1080 source but I doubt it.

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post #225 of 350 Old 05-26-2008, 01:28 PM
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regarding the new LG 50PG60, there are new things to take into consideration.

http://us.lge.com/EDGE/?ppl&p=edge

go to: picture / av mode / cinema

it shows 2:2 pulldown

so, maybe, there is hope after all...
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post #226 of 350 Old 05-26-2008, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

regarding the new LG 50PG60, there are new things to take into consideration.

http://us.lge.com/EDGE/?ppl&p=edge

go to: picture / av mode / cinema

it shows 2:2 pulldown

so, maybe, there is hope after all...

It does say 2:2 pulldown for cinema mode and 120hz for sports mode.

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post #227 of 350 Old 05-29-2008, 01:55 PM
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While I'm pretty familiar with how the A3000 handles 24fps material ... I'm wondering what it does with 3:2 60fps material?


Does it simply frame-repeat to 6:4, or is there are way to configure the set to detect 3:2, so it can convert it to 24fps, and then display it judder-free? Obviously, this is for stuff like DVD's.

Can ANY TV do that?


If not, I'm wondering when we will see TV's that can accept 120Hz signals ... and outboard video processors that can do this (and a whole lot more). It would be interesting to see what companies like Lumagen, Anchor Bay, Silicon Optix, etc. could do with motion interpolation, etc. Unfortunately, you need a TV that can accept 120Hz for it to be possible.
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post #228 of 350 Old 05-29-2008, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony BRAVIA KDL-52XBR4 May 2008 Home Theater review


Here is another review on the Sony KDL-52XBR4 for those that are interested in this display. This display is already on the list.

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If you turn the Motion Enhancer off, each source frame is simply repeated as many times as needed to get to 120 Hz, with no interpolation.

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/608sonykdl52/
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post #229 of 350 Old 05-29-2008, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raistlin_HT View Post

While I'm pretty familiar with how the A3000 handles 24fps material ... I'm wondering what it does with 3:2 60fps material?


Does it simply frame-repeat to 6:4, or is there are way to configure the set to detect 3:2, so it can convert it to 24fps, and then display it judder-free? Obviously, this is for stuff like DVD's.

Can ANY TV do that?


If not, I'm wondering when we will see TV's that can accept 120Hz signals ... and outboard video processors that can do this (and a whole lot more). It would be interesting to see what companies like Lumagen, Anchor Bay, Silicon Optix, etc. could do with motion interpolation, etc. Unfortunately, you need a TV that can accept 120Hz for it to be possible.

The Sony A3000 rear projector will display 24fps at 96HZ and 60fps material at 120HZ. With the motion enhancer off and motion naturalizer off each frame is frame doubled instead of using interpolation of new frames method.

http://ultimateavmag.com/rearproject...000/index.html

The Sony appears to have a issue with detecting 3:2 pulldown. Many displays do not do a reverse 3:2 pulldown and some of the ones that do have poor quality results.

Quotes
“I still spotted a few very subtle deinterlacing artifacts, but they were never distracting. Video-based 1080i material was correctly deinterlaced, as was film-based material, but the Sony did not recognize 3/2 pulldown on the latter.”
“Motion blur is not as significant an issue on an SXRD (or LCoS) display as it is in many flat panel LCDs, but it is more prevalent than on a DLP or plasma set. As one of the new 120Hz displays, the Sony KDS-50A3000 offers two features designed to minimize motion blur: Motion Enhancer and Motion Naturalizer.
Sony's literature and manual are both vague in describing what each of these features does. But I scoped out a bit more detail from Sony HQ. With both of them turned off, the set converts a 60 frames per second (fps) source (a 60Hz refresh rate) to 120fps by simply repeating a each frame a second time. For a 24fps source, the set repeats each frame four times to produce 96fps.”
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post #230 of 350 Old 05-31-2008, 12:26 AM
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I purchased a Toshiba 42xv540u and I can for sure say that it does 24 fps. It can be done by turning clearframe on which will enable 120hz and turning the Film Stabilization setting to smooth.
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post #231 of 350 Old 06-03-2008, 10:33 AM
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Is there a "tool" or test disc (like AVIA or DVE) that helps test for proper 24fps playback? I was trying to eyeball it with some random HD-DVD movie in a store the other day. I thought I saw a difference between 24fps input and regular.

To my eyes the Mitsubishi WD-65735 handled 24fps correctly - i.e. in 5:5 cadance, but I don't think this was ideal test material.
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post #232 of 350 Old 06-04-2008, 10:19 AM
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This is from hdtvtest.co.uk

" The Sony KDL40V3000 handled 1080p/24 output from the PS3 with aplomb, as evident right from the opening scene of Hairspray Blu-ray when the camera broke through the clouds to pan across the town of Baltimore. The resulting smoothness was really as good as it gets: not a single hint of telecine judder nor interpolation artefact was detected, confirming that the Sony KDL40V3000 did not employ internal 2:3 pulldown nor motion compensation technology to process 1080p/24 signals. "

Use this for your reference...

hdtvtest.co.uk/Sony-KDL40V3000/Picture-Quality/

I just wanted to add another review since the PC mag review seemed to be the only one listed for this display
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post #233 of 350 Old 06-05-2008, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Panasonic PT-AE2000U LCD Front Projector (June 2008 review link)

Here is another review on the Panasonic PT-AE2000U that came out in June 2008 at the UltimateAVmag.com website. This projector has been on the list for a while since it has a 96HZ refresh rate for 1080P/24 source material.

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One feature common to both models is how they display 1080p/24 material. When the projector receives such a signal, it repeats each frame four times, resulting in a refresh rate of 96Hz. This is fairly rare and welcome news for Blu-ray movie buffs, because it results in smoother motion than 1080p/24 displayed at 60Hz, which is a much more common scenario.
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/508panapro/
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post #234 of 350 Old 06-07-2008, 02:11 PM
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Is it true that refresh at 48 sucks compared to refresh at 72 because flicker is visibly apparent?

Is it true that Toshiaba is the only LCD that does TRUE 5:5 pulldown?
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post #235 of 350 Old 06-09-2008, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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The Planar PD8150 DLP Front Projector has been added to the list.



Positives (projector offers true 48HZ refresh rate for 1080P 24fps material)
Quote
With the DLP Frame Rate control set to Auto, a 60fps source was displayed at 60Hz, while a 24fps source was reproduced at 48Hz.
As a single-chip DLP projector, the Planar uses a 6x color wheel. The wheel rotates at 6x the frame rate360Hz for a 60fps source and 288Hz for a 24fps source that has been upconverted by the projector to display at 48Hz.


Negatives of single chip DLP projectors

Quote
All single-chip DLP projectors are subject to the so-called "rainbow effect"flashes of color caused by the rotating color wheel and the characteristics of the eye. And the brighter the projector, the more obvious this effect can be. Some people are totally immune to seeing this effect, while others are not. I'm in the latter group. I did occasionally spot rainbows on the Planar, but they were infrequent and merely a minor distraction.

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Highs
Excellent black level and brightnessan uncommon combination
Extremely accurate color
First-rate video processing for both HD and SD
Exceptional adjustability
Lows
Will not reproduce above-white or below-black
Occasional color-wheel rainbows might bother some viewers
Less-flexible gamma controls than I'd like

Quotes taken from the following review
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/608plan/index2.html
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post #236 of 350 Old 06-09-2008, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Is it true that refresh at 48 sucks compared to refresh at 72 because flicker is visibly apparent?

Is it true that Toshiaba is the only LCD that does TRUE 5:5 pulldown?

Yes it is true that some people are bothered by film projectors and other displays that refresh at 48HZ. Sometimes some people notice a small flicker. No display in existence refreshes at 24fps but only multiplies of 24fps since native 24HZ has a unwatchable flicker. Most the time higher refresh rates are better then lower refresh rates when it comes to eliminating flicker and offering a smoother image. That of course is not always true. A 72HZ 3:3 pulldown Pioneer plasma will have a better picture quality compared to a 5:5 pulldown LCD screen with 120HZ. Sony and Samsung have true 5:5 pulldown displays according to the reviews on the main list. So far the new Toshiba’s have not had a review of that feature but the Toshiba’s remain on the list since the manufactories spec sheet clearly mentions the 5:5 pulldown feature.
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post #237 of 350 Old 06-09-2008, 02:21 PM
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I went to Best Buy today and harassed one of their people there to hook up a blu-ray player to the Sony 46V3000. Whichever refresh rate it uses to do so, it definitely does 24p right. I used a scene from Planet Earth that has a pretty bad case of 3:2 judder on my 60hz LCD, but is consistent 24fps when I play it on my computer CRT at 72hz (right at the 2nd chapter of shallow seas episode, flyover of a reef). In 60hz blu-ray output, the Sony had typical 2:3 judder. In the player's 24hz output mode, the motion was a consistent 24fps, without any 2:3 judder.

edit: removed incorrect samsung info. for anyone who might care, I messed around with a LN52A750 in a store for quite a while, and it does do 5:5 pulldown correctly. Can't say if that applies to the 650 as well. You can see the difference quite clearly with 24hz (circuit city were demoing Ratatouille, the slow pan over Paris about a fourth through the movie works really well to illustrate 2:3 judder) if you switch between game mode and the other modes (with AMP off) . The game mode seems to go through a 60hz conversion.
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post #238 of 350 Old 06-10-2008, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Any brand and model of display that supports 1080P/24 signals at multiplies of the original frame is included on the list. Yes it is true that some displays handle 24fps better then others. Even some models of front projectors that handle 24fps at multiplies of the original frame do a poor job in the real world of showing the improvements compared to other models.
The list is just a general reference guide. People can click on the links to read the professional reviews. Some of the reviews will mention how good the 24fps feature was in improving a scene in a movie while other reviews will mention how poor the brand and model of display handled 24fps. Even true 24fps equipment with correct refresh rates does not guarantee the display is up to reference quality levels like Pioneer, JVC LCOS, Sony and others.
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post #239 of 350 Old 06-12-2008, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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The Panasonic Plasma flat panel 800U and 850U series have been moved from list 3 to list number 1 (Warning major flicker issue with 800U)



In keeping with the tradition of adding any brand and model of display that refreshes 1080P/24 at correct refresh rates and avoids the 3:2 pull down process I have added the following displays to the current in production and coming soon list (list number 1).

Panasonic TH-50PZ800U (48HZ)

Panasonic TH-46PZ800U (48HZ)

Panasonic TH-42PZ800U (48HZ)

Panasonic TH-65PZ850U (48HZ) (Fall 2008)


Panasonic TH-58PZ850U (48HZ) (Fall 2008)

Panasonic TH-50PZ850U (48HZ) (Fall 2008)

Panasonic TH-46PZ850U (48HZ) (Fall 2008)

Warning about the 800U series (unwatchable flicker)

Even though the Panasonic 800U has 48HZ refresh rates for 1080P/24 it should be noted that according to the CNET review the Panasonic 800U series is unwatchable with an ignoring flicker when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. Maybe Panasonic might fix this issue with a firmware update.

Quote
We tested the Panasonic's "24p direct in" mode by setting it to 48Hz and switching our PS3 to 1080p/24 mode. After doing so, the first thing we noticed was significant flicker, which was most obvious in brighter areas of the picture, such as the overcast sky or sun-scorched desert hardpan, but was present throughout. The flicker made the image basically unwatchable, and we much preferred the look of standard 60Hz mode. If it weren't for the flicker, however, the 24p mode would be great, because it did make movement appear more natural, removing the hitching in motion associated with 60Hz's necessary 2:3 pull-down process. We feel most viewers will notice and object to the flicker enough to abandon the 48Hz setting, however. “
Quote
It failed to properly deinterlace film-based 1080i material, according to our HQV test, although as usual that failure was difficult to spot in program material.”

All quotes taken from the following review
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-viera-th-50pz800u/4505-6482_7-32886472.html?tag=nl.e722
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post #240 of 350 Old 06-13-2008, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Mitsubishi HC6000 LCD front projector (June 2008 Sound and Vision review)


Here is another review on the Mitsubishi HC6000 LCD front projector that correctly handles 1080P/24 and refreshes the image a 48HZ similar to a movie projector.

Quote
The HC6000 will also accept a 24p input from a Blu-ray Disc player, automatically frame-doubling the signal to a 48p display.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/tests/2844/mitsubishi-hc6000-lcd-front-projector.html
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