Displays that support 1080p/24 signal at multiplies of the original frame rate - Page 9 - AVS Forum
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post #241 of 351 Old 06-13-2008, 03:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Toshiba LCD Flat Panel 52XF550U Sound and Vision July/August 2008 review information




The Toshiba XF550U series offer true 5:5 pulldown according to the following new Sound and Vision review. Perhaps one day Toshiba might release a BLU-RAY player to take full advantage of these new Toshiba displays. On the new Toshiba XV540U and XF550U series of displays when the Film Stabilization option is set to standard mode the Toshiba’s will perform true 5:5 pulldown.

Quote
"Notably, the set supports 1080p/24 input signals from Blu-ray Disc players, with a "5:5 pulldown" option that preserves the original film-frame sequence."

Quote
"The ClearFrame 120-Hz feature can be switched on in the menu. Motion Vector Frame Interpolation processing is used to derive additional frames from the incoming video signal; with a standard 60-Hz source, this effectively doubles the number of video frames being displayed per second. A Film Stabilization option also provides Standard and Smooth modes for handling film-based programs. When sending a 1080p/24 signal to the TV from a Blu-ray player, the Standard mode engages 5:5 pulldown (each original film frame that's been encoded to video is displayed five times to hit the TV's 120-Hz refresh rate). The Smooth mode, meanwhile, adds processing to eliminate the motion-judder artifacts that are part and parcel of the film-watching experience.”

Clear frame appears to be artifact free when smoothing 60HZ video sources at 120HZ refresh rate.

Quote
"As a movie fan, I proceed cautiously with motion-interpolation modes on 120-Hz LCDs, some of which can impart an unnatural "sped-up" look. But Toshiba's ClearFrame feature proved effective and artifact-free at all settings, including the judder-fighting Smooth mode. As my Blu-ray player supplied a 1080p/24 signal with ClearFrame and Standard Film Stabilization enabled, pictures looked razor-sharp even in complex tracking shots along fences or across signs."

Sound and Vision review where quotes where taken from:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...-lcd-hdtv.html
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post #242 of 351 Old 06-18-2008, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Planar PD8150 DLP Front Projector with true 1080P/24
(July 2008 Home theater review)




For those that are interested in single chip DLP Front Projectors, here is a second review on the Planar PD8150 projector that also mentions the true 1080P/24 feature. This review can be found on pages 62-65 of the July 2008 Home Theater magazine. The list price on this projector is $7,999.

1080P/24 BLU-RAY input highlights

Quote

“Most projectors have a typical refresh rate of 60HZ, but we are seeing more and more add 48-Hz support for 1080P/24 sources.” The PD8150 allows for Auto, which selects the refresh rate based on the incoming video signal, 48-Hz, 50-Hz, and 60-Hz.”

Reverse 3:2 pulldown for watching standard 480I DVD’s and 1080I HD film based programming

For those interested in upconverting 480I or 1080I film based material to 1080P/24 very few displays offer reverse 3:2 pulldown feature. Many of the displays on the list lack 3:2 pulldown detection with 1080P/24 upconvert. The Planar will perform a reverse 3:2 pulldown and display the image at 1080P with a 48HZ refresh rate. Of course native 1080P/24 source material from BLU-RAY will always look better compared to upconverted 480I 60HZ material. Also native 24fps is always better since errors can occur in either the 3:2 pulldown encoding or decoding process. When every possible avoiding 3:2 pulldown is the best solution for film based material.

Quote

“For example, with film-based DVD’s encoded with 3:2 pulldown at 60Hz, the user can choose 48-Hz conversion. The processing strips the signal back to its original 24 frames per second and plays it back at 48Hz, eliminating the judder inherent in the 3:2 sequence.”

Home Theater magazines quotes


“I was continually impressed by the razor-sharp image the PD8150 provided. I’d been living with the JVC DLA-RS2 for quite some time before I received this unit. While the PD8150 did not quite deliver the blacks, I was enamored of the color fielity."

Quote

“The PD8150 is one of the best front projectors I’ve had the chance to use in my theater. It has the best contrast of any DLP I’ve used to date and has image accuracy that you rarely see in the front-projector market. This is also one of the only DLP projectors that let you have both high light output and dark blacks for high contrast. This is a mix we rarely ever see from this segment of the market. Planar has done an amazing job with its first dip into the 1080p market, and once Planar resolves the clipping issue, this is a projector I would be happy to use as a reference display.”

http://hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/708planar/index1.html
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post #243 of 351 Old 06-20-2008, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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All Westinghouse displays so far are 60HZ only displays and will not be added to the list.

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These days, many LCD TVs refresh the image at twice the normal rate120Hz instead of 60Hzin order to reduce motion blur. The Westinghouse uses a refresh rate of 60Hz, no doubt to keep the cost down. With 1920x1080 native resolution, it can accept all signals including 1080p/60 and 1080p/24, though it applies 3:2 pulldown to 1080p/24.

Quote taken from review of the Westinghouse TX-52F480S
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldisplays/608west/
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post #244 of 351 Old 06-23-2008, 09:52 PM
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Link for the Toshiba XF550 series review was moved to:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...-lcd-hdtv.html
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post #245 of 351 Old 06-24-2008, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpHeRe31459 View Post

Link for the Toshiba XF550 series review was moved to:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hdt...-lcd-hdtv.html

Thanks for the information. I have updated my original posting and the 6 Toshiba links on the list with the new location of the review. Sound and Vision for some reason moved the review to a new web link location. I find the Sound and Vision website is hard to navigate around to find stuff. Hopefully they will improve the website also in the near future.
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post #246 of 351 Old 06-26-2008, 11:33 PM
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Does this list suggest that all these TV's do 5:5 pull down? If not how can a 60 hz tv acurately do 24P anything without 3:2 processing?: Are they not all painting 60 cycles twice?



Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTV1080P24 View Post

3:3 pulldown is a marketing term that means each frame of 24fps video is refreshed on the screen 3X to reach 72HZ. The term 2:2 pulldown cadence is talking about the process of converting film to 50HZ PAL and SECAM. So far I have not seen anyone use 2:2 pulldown cadence to mean 48HZ but the process of detecting 24fps from PAL and SECAM video sources. With 2:2 pulldown 24fps film is slightly increased in speed to two interlaced 25fps video frames and then distributed over 50 PAL fields.
Thanks for the global Panasonic link, the USA link does not have that information. Since this list is only for US models I was not looking at the global website. I did email Panasonic a few days ago, I would like to know what refresh rate the Plasma's are going to use.
These displays have not been released yet and the finally specs could change but there is a 95% chance the THX certified Panasonics use the multiplies of the original frame methods. I would be in shock if a THX certified display did not properly display 1080P/24.

I most likely will add the Panasonics to the list after further information on refresh rates etc. It took several months after the Sony 120HZ displays were released before I added them to the list.
Another entire line I am considering adding to the list is the high end Nuvision line. The product literature mentions that the displays have automatic 3:2 (NTSC) and 2:2 (PAL and SECAM) film cadence detection and a 1080P/24 input. One of the displays was already added to the list after it was verified to have a 72HZ refresh rate when a 1080P/24 input was applied.

Nuvision never replied to my email so their entire product line is still pending possibly being added to the list.
Here is the original link on the Nuvision post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12825824&postcount=90
I guess I could always go back to the old system where every 1080P/24 display is added to the list and then some will end up being removed from the list once a professional review is published that shows they do not display 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame. The list becomes less accurate under that system.

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post #247 of 351 Old 06-27-2008, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carib909 View Post

Does this list suggest that all these TV's do 5:5 pull down? If not how can a 60 hz tv acurately do 24P anything without 3:2 processing?: Are they not all painting 60 cycles twice?

No this list does not suggest that all the TV’s are 5:5 pull down. This list only contains TV’s that display 24fps at multiplies of the original frame. For example this list is made up of displays with refresh rates of 48HZ, 72HZ, 96HZ, 120HZ, and 240HZ. A 35mm or 70mm film projector in the theater will flash a 24fps image on the screen at 48HZ or 72HZ (sometimes other multiplies of 24). This list is for people interested in natural film quality refresh rates when watching a BLU-RAY disc.
The list does not contain any 60HZ only displays since 60HZ does not display 24fps correctly on the screen. Many front projectors and a few flat panels can have more then one refresh rate. Many of the front projectors on the list display 60HZ but then switch to 48HZ when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. The JVC front projectors will display 60HZ at 120HZ and then display 1080P/24 at 96HZ.
There are a few brands and models of 120HZ LCD flat panels that do not appear on the list since when they receive a 1080P/24 signal they use a 3:2 pulldown process to convert the image to 60HZ and then an interpolation of new frames method to refresh the image on the screen at 120HZ.
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post #248 of 351 Old 06-28-2008, 03:43 PM
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The Vizio 22" LCD sold at Costco, model VO22LHDTV10A, accepts 1080p24Hz signal and refreshes properly with no judder. The native resolution is not even 1080p, it is 1680x1050. The spec does not mention 1080p at all. I plugged in a 1080p24Hz signal just for the heck of it, and it worked very nicely. The GUIDE button shows "1080p HD" as the signal type. I am not sure what the actual refresh rate its, but motion is smooth as silk. The TV also accepts 1080p 60Hz and 50Hz signals, which are not listed in the spec either.
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post #249 of 351 Old 06-29-2008, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhdz View Post

The Vizio 22" LCD sold at Costco, model VO22LHDTV10A, accepts 1080p24Hz signal and refreshes properly with no judder. The native resolution is not even 1080p, it is 1680x1050. The spec does not mention 1080p at all. I plugged in a 1080p24Hz signal just for the heck of it, and it worked very nicely. The GUIDE button shows "1080p HD" as the signal type. I am not sure what the actual refresh rate its, but motion is smooth as silk. The TV also accepts 1080p 60Hz and 50Hz signals, which are not listed in the spec either.

To my knowledge all the VIZO displays convert 1080P/24 to 60HZ using a 3:2 pulldown process. VIZO’s coming soon 120HZ models might also use a 3:2 pulldown process but I am not sure. Thanks for the information. Currently only displays with a native resolution of 1920 X 1080 and which correctly refresh the image at multiplies of the original frame rate are included on the list.
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post #250 of 351 Old 06-29-2008, 11:35 PM
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Thanks for the reply. I know the Vizio 22" should not be included in the list since its not native 1080p to begin with. Just an interesting data point.

BTW, how can one determine if 3:2 pull down is applied by the display? How to tell what the actual refresh rate is?
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post #251 of 351 Old 06-30-2008, 01:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffhdz View Post

Thanks for the reply. I know the Vizio 22" should not be included in the list since its not native 1080p to begin with. Just an interesting data point.

BTW, how can one determine if 3:2 pull down is applied by the display? How to tell what the actual refresh rate is?

The refresh rate information and bypassing 3:2 pulldown comes from manufactories spec sheets and professional reviews by Widescreen Review, Home Theater magazine, UltimateAV, and other magazines. Perhaps someone will make a test disc or measuring tool that will detect if 3:2 is present or not and what refresh rate is used. It would be awesome to have some type of testing tool that consumers could use. There are many companies that make 1080P displays that do not offer this information to consumers and without a review or an opportunity to watch the display with a BLU-RAY player hooked up it is hard for the average consumer to determine if the display properly will handle 1080P/24.
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post #252 of 351 Old 06-30-2008, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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4 new Pioneer 2008 1080P Plasma’s officially have been released (link to Pioneer PDF spec sheets updated)


Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-111FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) ($5,000 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PRO-111FD.pdf

Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60” Plasma (72HZ) ($6,500 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PRO-151FD.pdf

Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020FD 50” Plasma (72HZ) ($4,000 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PDP-5020FD.pdf

Pioneer Kuro PDP-6020FD 60” Plasma (72Hz) ($5,500 manufactories suggested list price) http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/PDP-6020FD.pdf

All of the above ninth generation Pioneer Plasmas will refresh 1080P/24 at 72HZ and in theory have a better picture quality compared to the discontinued 8th generation Pioneers do to the 5X deeper blacks. A official review is not out yet on the new Pioneer models. The one negative about the new Pioneer Plasmas are some nice features were removed in order to offer the displays at a lower price compared to last years models.
For more details about the features that were removed that also results in a cheaper price see my prior post regarding this issue.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13886234&postcount=210
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post #253 of 351 Old 07-01-2008, 02:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Samsung LN52A750 LCD flat panel (June 2008 review link).


The Samsung 750 series according to the latest review refreshes 1080P/24 correctly using true 5:5 pulldown for those interested in a judder free natural film quality. When AMP is turned off each 24fps is repeated 5 times without interpolation of new frames to offer true 5:5 pulldown. Also when AMP is turned on some 60HZ video material in the picture can sometimes be improved since the motion artifacts issue that appeared on prior Samsungs appears to be corrected in the 750 series. I actually had a chance to watch the Samsung for a brief period of time and for a LCD display the black level and over all picture quality was excellent. Of course it is not as good as a Pioneer kuro Plasma which has deeper blacks. According to the lastest review the Samsung LN52A750 has a better black level and picture quality compared to the Sony XBR4 series. The Samsung is also $800 cheaper compared to the Sony LCD display. So right now in the LCD world Samsung has the best picture quality for a consumer LCD flat panel. It is amazing that Samsung has now become a high-end brand that is also priced below the competition.

A few quotes from the review link

"As with virtually all upscale LCDs these days, the LN52A750 doubles the refresh rate from 60 to 120Hz. To combat motion blur, a feature called Auto Motion Plus (AMP) inserts interpolated frames between the actual frames in the input signal. This feature can be turned off, in which case each frame in a 60Hz signal is displayed twice and frames in a 24Hz signal are each repeated five times. I noticed a few glaring artifacts when AMP was engaged in a previous-generation Samsung LCD TV, but this year's models have improved it substantially, as we'll see.

"Samsung has come a long way since the days when it was considered a second-tier bargain-basement brand. Thanks to steadily improving quality, the Korean megacorp is now one of the world's pre-eminent consumer-electronics manufacturers. I've reviewed several Samsung TVs over the years, and each one has been better than the one before.

"The best test of 120Hz frame interpolation is the FPD Benchmark Blu-ray test disc. With AMP on, the horizontal resolution in the horizontally scrolling monoscope improved, but the vertical resolution was actually degraded. The horizontally scrolling characters were sharpened, especially in the low-contrast tests. All real-world clips (hammock, swing, etc.) looked much sharper with AMP on, and I saw no evidence of the artifacts I observed under the same conditions with the previous-generation LN-T4671F.

The only other nit to pick is the relatively high reflectivity of the screenin fact, it looked more like a plasma than an LCD in that regard. I could see a sharp reflection of myself when the screen was dark. This could be a problem in rooms with light sources opposite the TV. Samsung claims this actually lowers the black level by not diffusing the reflection of light sources in the room.

The Samsung 750 series has a better black level and picture quality compared to the Sony XBR4 series and does it for $800 less.


The most obvious comparison to make is with the Sony KDL-52XBR4. As much as I like that TV, I prefer the Samsung with its better blacks, sharper standard-def detail, better 120Hz frame interpolation, one more HDMI input, and better menu system. And the Samsung is $800 less than the Sony to boot, making it a better value. Both have very wide bezels, so you need to take that into account either way.

"Samsung has come a long way from the days of being a cheapie brand, and the LN52A750 proves it in spades. Gorgeous colors, exquisite detail, great blacks, excellent shadow detail, exceptional processing, tons of useful features, and a reasonable pricewhat's not to love?

The 3 750 series Samsungs on the list have been updated with the following review link.
http://ultimateavmag.com/flatpaneldi...n52/index.html
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post #254 of 351 Old 07-02-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

regarding the new LG 50PG60, there are new things to take into consideration.

http://us.lge.com/EDGE/?ppl&p=edge

go to: picture / av mode / cinema

it shows 2:2 pulldown

so, maybe, there is hope after all...



wondering if someone did some serious testing, and was able to see smooth playback on those infamous slow pan across...
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post #255 of 351 Old 07-05-2008, 08:37 PM
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?????????????


not a very popular threat i guess!!!
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post #256 of 351 Old 07-06-2008, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touviere7 View Post

?????????????


not a very popular threat i guess!!!

Threats are usually unpopular

Samsung: 52" 850 / 46" 61 / 40" 61 / PS3 / BD-P1500 / A3 HD-DVD / Format Neutral
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post #257 of 351 Old 07-06-2008, 01:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axmode View Post

Threats are usually unpopular


yeah, interesting to see what a single letter can change! merci beaucoup
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post #258 of 351 Old 07-07-2008, 12:08 PM
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Here's my rather enlightening experience with the Sharp LC-65D64U. Out of the box, it wouldn't take 1080P24, in fact, it had a flaw in the main pcb --- after warming up (5 minutes), the video would glitch (loss of synch). Sharp's official firmware upgrade from USB also would not take.

Sharp sent someone over to my house and replaced the main pcb. Besides fixning the glitch, by magic it now takes 1080p24 input. I strained to find judder problems in horizontal and vertical pans. Including the infamous vertical rolling credits.

Truth is, I can't find anything definitive, but I think it does display 24p at 48Hz. And that's why I'm keeping it. But it also means that anyone who buys one now from Costco, out of the box would not have a 24p capable display.
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post #259 of 351 Old 07-07-2008, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Pioneer Elite PRO-FPJ1 KURO LCOS Front Projector has been officially released and added to the list


My favorite display on the list for over all movie experience that also has deep blacks and excellent contrast ratio has been the JVC DLA-HD100 (DLA-RS2). Watching a 1080P BLU-RAY movie on a 100 to 200 inch screen is very enjoyable if one has a dedicated dark home theater room to mount the projector on the ceiling. The JVC front projectors are known as the best or one of the best consumer front projectors that one can purchase for picture quality.
Pioneer instead of building and designing a front projector from scratch decided to modify the best consumer 1080P LCOS projector on the market. Pioneer has taken the JVC DLA-HD100 (DLA-RS2) projector with a list price of $7,999 and has made improvements in black levels and other menu adjustments. The price for the picture quality improvements are $1,000 higher for the Pioneer model compared to the JVC model.
The best Pioneer Kuro now is the PR0-FPJ1 with a list price of $9,000. One will need a dedicated dark home theater room and a wall that can handle a screen size between 60-200 inches. I am waiting for an official review on this projector but in theory it should have a better picture quality compared to the already excellent JVC DLA-HD100. A Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-151FD 60 inch Plasma costs $6,500. For another $2,500 one can purchase a 200 inch Pioneer front projector instead which is more enjoyable. (All prices are list prices, actual street prices may be lower).

Here is the official Pioneer PRO-FPJ1 spec sheet:


According to my sources this projector will refresh 1080P/24 material at 96HZ and 60HZ material at 120HZ exactly the same as all JVC 1080P front projectors currently do.
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post #260 of 351 Old 07-08-2008, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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The Samsung PN50A550 Plasma HDTV will not be added to the list since it is a 60HZ only display

Quote

The PN50A550 accepts inputs up to 1080p on HDMI (1080i over component) at either 1080p/60 frames per second (hertz) or 1080p/24 fps. Unfortunately, it converts the latter back to 1080p/60 prior to display. This adds 3:2 pulldown, which negates the benefits of smoother motion benefit on 24-fps material.

http://hometheatermag.com/plasmadisplays/808samup/index1.html
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post #261 of 351 Old 07-08-2008, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Warning about the Panasonic TH-50PZ850U series (unwatchable flicker)


Even though the Panasonic 850U has 48HZ refresh rate for 1080P/24 signals it should be noted that according to the CNET review and other reviews the Panasonic 850U series is unwatchable with an ignoring flicker when a 1080P/24 signal is applied. Maybe Panasonic might fix this issue with a firmware update.
The Panasonic 850U was suppose to be THX certified. Before Panasonic released the 850U either THX or Panasonic dropped the THX feature from the product. It is unknown why the new Panasonic is not THX certified. Perhaps it is because there is an unwatchable flicker when the display refreshes 1080P/24 material at 48HZ. The new Panasonic 800U and 850U offer smooth judder free film playback at 48HZ but since several professional reviews are saying the Panasonic is unwatchable when playing 1080P/24 at 48HZ do to the flicker I am considering removing both the Panasonic 800U and 850U from the list. I am in shock Panasonic has released a product with a feature that cannot be used. Hopefully Panasonic will release a firmware update to either correct this problem or to turn off the 48HZ refresh rate completely and make the display a 60HZ only display. There was a review of a Sony KDL-46V3000 LCD display that mentioned a small amount of vertical flicker at 48HZ but the Sony was still watchable. More evidence is starting to appear that both Plasma and LCD flat panel displays have flicker problems when the refresh rates are around 48HZ. Higher refresh rate displays are better but cost more money to produce. Panasonic should have used a 72HZ refresh rate or greater just like Pioneer does. The Pioneer Plasma's have no flicker problems with 1080P/24 material that is refreshed at 72HZ.

Quote from CNET review

Panasonic built the same 48Hz refresh rate option we complained about on the 800U into the 850U, and our complaints still apply. When fed a 1080p/24 source, the set flickers quite noticeably, especially in the brightest areas. The flicker is not subtle -- to the point why we wonder why Panasonic even included this mode at all. Needless to say, despite the fact that refreshing the screen in an even multiple of 24 did seem to smooth the characteristic 2:3 pulldown "hitch," we preferred watching the set in standard 60Hz mode."

Unlike the less expensive TH-50PZ800U, the flagship TH-50PZ850U is not THX certified. We're not exactly sure why, but we guess it has something to do with keeping prices down; perhaps the cost of including the THX license and Viera Cast would have driven the price into a place that, unlike Pioneer, Panasonic didn't want to go. It may also have to do with differing color gamuts (see Performance). Regardless, it's pretty confusing for a flagship product to lack a major picture quality feature that its step-down cousin includes.


Quote from HD Guru website on the TH-50PZ850U

To eliminate judder, this Panasonic plasma can display 24 Hz native content at 48 Hz (2 frames followed by 2 film frames or also called 2:2). This mode completely eliminates judder, unfortunately it creates flickering of the image as well, making it unwatchable.

http://hdguru.com/panasonic-th-50pz850u-exclusive-hd-guru%e2%84%a2-first-review/249/
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The LG60 and LG70 series have been added to the list


The past few days I have been reading reviews on the LG displays and reading LG spec sheets and instruction manuals. According to the LG spec sheets the LG60 and LG70 series are true 5:5 pulldown 120HZ displays. All other LG 120HZ LCD displays currently use a 3:2 pulldown process and will not be added to the list. Also all other LG Plasma and LG LCD displays according to my research are 60HZ only displays and/or the displays use a 3:2 pulldown process when a 1080P/24 signal is applied.



LG manual reference link (see page 81 for details on 5:5 pulldown)

http://us.lge.com/download/product/file/1000004117/LG60_manual.pdf

According to page 81 of the LG60 and LG70 instruction manual the display will bypass 3:2 pulldown and perform a true 5:5 pulldown when TrueMotion is off and Real Cinema is On.

Currently there are no reviews that verify how the LG60 and LG70 handle 1080P/24 material

The LG60 and LG70 series were added to the list because of the official LG spec sheet and manuals mentioning true cinema 5:5 pulldown feature. Here is a review link on the LG 47LG60 that was published by PC magazine but it does not mention how 1080P/24 is handled
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2307662,00.asp

Home theater review error or typo on LG 42LG60 display

http://hometheatermag.com/lcds/808lg/index1.html


Now the review from Home Theater magazine on the LG 42LG60 has an error or typo in it that does not make things clear.
Quote
TruMotion is LG's name for its 120-Hz motion-smoothing feature. When TruMotion is off, the display simply repeats each frame in a 60-frame-per-second (60-Hz) source five times.

The author of the Home Theater magazine article was most likely trying to say 60HZ sources are repeated twice or the author was trying to say 24HZ sources are repeated five times in the above quote.
My understanding is that when true motion is off and Real Cinema is on the LG60 and LG70 will repeat a 60fps source twice and a 24fps source 5 times without any 3:2 pulldown.

Here are some highlights from the Home Theater Review on the LG60

Full HZ quote info
TruMotion is LG's name for its 120-Hz motion-smoothing feature. When TruMotion is off, the display simply repeats each frame in a 60-frame-per-second (60-Hz) source five times. (Interlaced sources are first deinterlaced to 60 fps.) When TruMotion is on, it adds interpolated frames to convert 60-fps sources to 120 fps (120 Hz). TruMotion first adds 3:2 pulldown to a 24-fps source to convert it to 60 fps, then adds the interpolated frames to achieve 120 Hz.
However, frame interpolation has side effects that you might not like. I will discuss these side effects later on in this review.
Negatives of using the Truemotion feature
Quote
The 120-Hz TruMotion feature virtually banished motion lag and smear. In doing this, it appeared to soften the picture slightly and make film-based material resemble video. Both of these side effects are common to motion-smoothing features I've seen on other 120-Hz sets. You may find this an acceptable trade-off for the motion benefits. For me, it made the movie look like the editor lost the film and produced the final cut from a 60-fps HD video used on-set for a quick replay of each take.

Quote
Conclusions
With its excellent video processing, fine color, great color adjustability, and good detail, the LG is poised for the LCD wars that rage in the aisles of video retailers.
But it needs one additional weapon to prevail. Its blacks need to be deeper. Without that, this otherwise solid performer doesn't stand out from the crowd.

Highlights
Excellent SD and HD video processing
Superior color
120-Hz feature defeats LCD image lagbut kills the film-like look on movies
Blacks and shadow detail are below average, even for an LCD
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** Major update has been made to the 3 lists **




The following changes have been made to the 3 lists to keep it more organized and offer more room to the every growing list of true 1080P/24 displays.

List number 1 of 3: Contains the current in production 1080P/24 Front Projectors and Plasma Displays.

List number 2 of 3: Contains the current in production 1080P/24 LCD flat panel Displays.

List number 3 of 3: Contains all discontinued 1080P/24 Displays.
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Another professional review mentions that the Samsung LN52A750 is currently the best LCD flat panel for picture quality

PC magazine Quote

Producing a well-contrasted picture is perhaps the most important task any television can tackle, and the Samsung LN52A750 ($3,999.99 list) delivered the best contrast results we've encountered in an LCD HDTV. This 52-inch set's out-of-the-box color quality was outstanding, and it handled standard and high-definition video well by preserving fine detail while minimizing distracting image artifacts.

The Pioneer Kuro Plasma still has better black levels and contrast ratios but the Samsung 750 series is the best LCD for picture quality currently.

PC magazine Quote

The set's calibrated picture produced an utterly impressive 3725:1 contrast ratio, thanks to its dark black level of 0.03 cd/m2. This result was similar to the black level I measured from the Editors' Choice-winning Pioneer Elite KURO PRO-150FD plasma. Granted, at 20 degrees off-axis, the black level doubled (a common issue with LCD TVs that effectively halves the contrast ratio). Regardless, its elevated black levels at this angle are still lower than those of most LCDs when measured straight on.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2321785,00.asp
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Can anybody tell me why i cannot get 24p when i send the picture into my YAMMAHA RX-V1700 AMP and out into my plasma? I can get a 1080p picture doing it this way so it does output 1080p and i can get 24p if i connect the hdmi cable directly to the tv

I am running a PANNY BD50 player into a PANNY PZ80B PLASMA Via my YAMMY amp.

Any kind of help would be good

Thanks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaffa69 View Post

Can anybody tell me why i cannot get 24p when i send the picture into my YAMMAHA RX-V1700 AMP and out into my plasma? I can get a 1080p picture doing it this way so it does output 1080p and i can get 24p if i connect the hdmi cable directly to the tv

I am running a PANNY BD50 player into a PANNY PZ80B PLASMA Via my YAMMY amp.

Any kind of help would be good

Thanks

Because your tv can't display 24p without doing 2:3? Not sure if your reciever will pass the signal, check the specs.

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5 New Mitsubishi LCD flat panels have been added to the list

The Mitsubishi 148 and 246 series are Mitsubishi's very first flat panels that bypass the 3:2 pulldown process when a 1080P/24 signal is applied.


Mitsubishi LT-40148 Simplay HD certified for maximum HDCP compatibility

Mitsubishi LT-46148 Simplay HD certified for maximum HDCP compatibility

Mitsubishi LT-52148 Simplay HD certified for maximum HDCP compatibility

Mitsubishi LT-46246 Simplay HD certified for maximum HDCP compatibility

Mitsubishi LT-52246 Simplay HD certified for maximum HDCP compatibility

148 SERIES SPEC SHEET
http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/img/614768/LT-52148%20Product%20Specifications.pdf

148 SERIES AND 246 SERIES INSTRUCTION MANUAL
http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/img/656692/LT-52148%20Owner's%20Guide.pdf



1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ without 3:2 pulldown (also called 2:3 pulldown) when Smooth Film Motion is turned off.

Quote
We also checked out how the Mitsubishi handled a 1080p/24 source by setting our PS3 in that mode and turning off the TV's Smooth 120 dejudder processing. The result was the best we'd seen so far from the set. Like the Sony and the Samsung, the 120Hz Mitsubishi displayed the 24-frame source faithfully, with standard film judder but without the characteristic extra hitching motion caused by the 2:3 pull-down process (which isn't necessary with 120Hz TVs displaying 24-frame content). Compared with the Panasonic, which we set at the standard 60Hz mode, the pan over the aircraft carrier, for example, looked more natural and smoother (in a good way!) on the 120Hz LCDs than on the Panasonic plasma. Of course, to most viewers the difference will be subtle, but for people with Blu-ray players who pay attention, it's worth it.

Negative comments about the Mitsubishi 148 LCD series flat panel's

(Note the 246 series is suppose to have better black levels and contrast ratio so these negative comments only apply to the 148 series since there is no reviews for the 246 series yet)

When compared to a highend Samsung or Sony LCD the Mitsubishi 148 series does not have as good of picture quality. Black levels and color accuracy are an issue on the Mitsubishi LCD screens.

Quote
The expensive LT-46148 failed to measure up to the better LCDs we've tested this year, exhibiting relatively lighter levels, less-accurate color and mediocre uniformity.

Black level: In dark areas, the Mitsubishi didn't match the depth of black delivered by any of the other displays in our test.


"Color accuracy:The Mitsubishi' greenish color temperature--technically, it's minus-blue and minus-red, but it amounts to the same thing--is its biggest liability. We noticed the green tint in skies and text and other whitish areas primarily, but it even showed up as a more-sickening cast to Robert's skin tone, and was quite egregious in one overhead shot of him curled up in the white bathtub with his dog.

All quotes takes from following review link

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/mitsubishi-lt-46148/4505-6482_7-32924014.html

The Mitsubishi 148 and 246 series LCD's displays are the best flat panel displays on the market in the area of nice useful features (most of the features applies to the 246 series only).

In the area of nice features, I give Mitsubishi a big grade of an A. All existing in production 2008 models of Pioneer, Sony, and most other manufactories displays in order to cut cost have removed nice features like the built in RF A/B switch, free interactive on screen TV guide, and cablecard slot. On the Mitsubishi 246 series all those nice features still exist and is the only flat panel on the market currently in production that includes the cablecard, RF A/B switch, and free interactive TV guide. Both the 148 and 246 series have the built in RF A/B switch. The nice thing about the RF A/B switch is if one wants to switch between cable TV and an outdoor/indoor over the air antenna it can be done with a push of the button on the remote. Most of the time free over the air HD broadcasts look better compared to most cable or satellite companies which usually over compression the signal. Of course Verizon FIOS local channels are identical to the original master broadcast source but not everyone has access to Verizon FIOS. Many years ago the built in RF A/B switch could be found on low cost 20 inch TV's around $200-$300 and all or most TV's over $1,000 had a built in A/B switch. For the year 2008 the Mitsubishi 148 and 246 is the only flat panel manufactory that I am aware of that still includes the RF A/B switch feature.
The higher cost 246 series also includes the free interactive onscreen TV guide with a built in cable card slot. The advantage of the cable card slot is that it allows consumers to subscribe to HD and SD premium channels without the need of a cable box. Now the only negative about the 246 series cable card slot is that it has a one way QAM tuner only and will not support two way cable services like Video on demand, etc. Hopefully in 2009 Mitsubishi will introduce displays with a two way QAM tuner that supports two way cable cards.
The Mitsubishi 148 and 246 have some nice features but hopefully on future models they will improve on black levels, contrast ratios, and color accuracy so the picture quality is comparable to the high-end Samsung and Sony LCD displays. Again the above CNET review on the picture quality only applies to the 148 series since the 246 series is suppose to have a better picture quality and there are more menu selections in the 246 to adjust black level and contrast ratios.

Unique features on the Mitsubishi flat panels


1. Built in RF A/B switch (Located on both 148 and 246 series)

2. CABLE CARD SLOT (246 series only)

3. Free Interactive TV guide (246 series only)

4. Simplay HD certified for maximum HDCP compatibility (Certified on both 148 and 246 series)

5. IR Emitter cable (two-ended with 148 series; four-ended with 246 series) (awesome for remote control quality range)

6. RS-232C jack (246 series only)

7. Subwoofer output (246 series only)

8. A/V receiver auto output detection that passes full range audio to A/V receiver (246 series only)
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post #268 of 351 Old 07-25-2008, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB LCD Front Projector (review)

The Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB and Epson PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB both refresh 1080P/24 signals at 48HZ. The only difference between the home and pro versions is for an extra $1,000 the pro version has a replacement lamp, ceiling hardware included, ISF certification, and comes in black case instead of white.

Quotes from Ultimate A/V review link

One welcome feature is a control called 2:2 Pulldown. When this control is enabled, a 1080p/24 video signal is displayed at 48Hzeach frame is repeated twice, just like in most commercial film projectors. This eliminates the judder of 3:2 pulldown when 1080p/24 is converted to 60Hz, as it is in most modern displays.

"If you want to save $1000, check out Epson's PowerLite Home Cinema 1080 UB, which is essentially identical to the Pro version I reviewed. What do you miss in the Home version? A replacement lamp, ceiling-mount hardware, ISF certification, and a black case. (The Home Cinema 1080 UB's case is white.) The lamp and mounting hardware cost about $600 to buy separately, so if ISF certification and the color of the case aren't worth $400 to you, the Home Cinema 1080 UB is an excellent alternative.
As noted earlier, the Epson equaled or exceeded the black levels I've measured from all but one or two other projectors, most notably the JVC DLA-HD100. But some of those projectors produced brighter whites to go along with their deep blacksin particular, the JVC DLA-RS1 (LCoS). The Planar PD8150 DLP model, with its DynamicBlack feature engaged, couldn't match the blacks from the Epson, but it was still good, with dramatically brighter whitesa combination that will benefit users who demand a larger screen. But both the JVC and the Planar are considerably more expensive than the Epson.
Taken as a whole, the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 UB can hold its own with any of its competition. It was a pleasure to watch, with no serious flaws and a lot of genuine strengths. If it's in your price range, don't miss the opportunity to check it out."

"Highs

Excellent color and detail
Deep blacks and good shadow detail
Superb video processing in both HD and SD
Wide range of adjustments, including color-point calibration

Lows

Some color misalignment
Not as quiet as some of its competition"

http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/708epsonppc/index.html
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post #269 of 351 Old 07-29-2008, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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New Samsung LCD flat panel's added to the list and some moved to the discontinued list


The following Samsung LCD flat panels have been moved to list 3 of 3 which is the discontinued out of production 1080P/24 displays

Samsung LN-T4069F (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-T4669F (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-T4071F (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-T4671F (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-T5271F (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)


The following new Sasmung LCD flat panels have been added to list 2 of 3 which is the current in production 1080P/24 LCD flat panel displays.

Samsung LN-40A630 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-46A630 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-52A630 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-46A850 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-46A950 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)

Samsung LN-55A950 (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)


According to the official Samsung PDF spec sheet links all the above displays use the Auto Motion Plus feature. When Auto Motion Plus is turned off 1080P/24 is correctly refreshed on the screen at 120HZ without using the 3/2 pulldown process.

Warning about the Samsung spec sheets:

I have noticed many errors with incorrect information while reading Samsung spec sheets. For example the Samsung flat panel displays have only 1 RF input but the spec sheets mention 2 RF inputs.
A few error examples with the Samsung official spec sheets:
Samsung LN52A750 and LN40A650 has one RF input when one looks at the back of the display just like all the rest of the 2008 Samsungs I have seen.
The spec sheet lists two RF inputs which is in error.
http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/05/27/ln52a750r1fxza/LN52A750_spec.pdf

http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/03/28/ln40a650a1fxza/ln40a650_spec.pdf

The error on listing an extra RF input jack on the Samsung LCD flat panels is not the only error that can be found. The latest Samsung BD-P1500 BLU-RAY player official spec sheet mentions that an S-Video output terminal is included. The spec sheet is in error again. Just take a look on the back of a Samsung BD-P1500 and there is no S-Video jack at all for people that have old legacy 480I TV sets like the official spec sheet mentions.

http://www.samsung.com/us/system/consumer/product/2008/05/22/bd_p1500xaa/bdp1500_spec.pdf
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post #270 of 351 Old 07-29-2008, 06:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Panasonic 800U and 850U series have been removed from the list












Originally the Panasonic 800U and 850U series were added to the list since technically the displays do bypass the 3/2 pulldown process and display 1080P/24 correctly on the screen at 48HZ (with an unwatchable flicker). When I added the 800U and 850U series to the list there was a big red warning link that let people know that the display is unwatchable when a 1080P/24 signal is applied at the native 48HZ refresh rate mode. It is ridiculous to have the 800U and 850U on the list since one cannot use the 48HZ refresh rate of the display since it is unwatchable. I was hoping that Panasonic would have issued a firmware update to correct this problem.
The fact remains that the only watchable Plasma screen on the market that correctly refreshes 1080P/24 at multiplies of the original frame is the Pioneer brand of Plasma screens. The very first Plasma screen with true 1080P/24 is the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 Plasma and it was introduced back in 2006. For two years Pioneer has been the only watchable Plasma manufactory that correctly refreshes BLU-RAY 1080P/24 signals just like a 35mm film projector. Pioneer is also the only flat panel that automatically selects the correct multiplies of the original frame rate when a 1080P/24 signal is applied regardless of the menu settings. So far every single 120HZ 5:5 pulldown LCD flat panel screen requires the consumer to make special adjustments inside the menu so that 1080P/24 is displayed correctly on the screen.
In the future any other brand or model that has an unwatchable picture when a 1080P/24 signal is applied will not be added to the list. Most consumers are not educated enough on how to setup their displays. Most people that purchase the 800U or 850U and connect it to a BLU-RAY player just leave the Panasonic at the default setting of 60HZ which has no advantage of 1080P/24 signals. The smarter consumers will place the Panasonic 800U and 850U in the 48HZ mode and their BLU-RAY player in the 1080P/24 mode. Then in the 48HZ mode the Panasonic 800U and 850U series has a unwatchable flicker and most consumers will place the display back in the 60HZ mode.

Click on the red link for the 800U and 850U above to see more detailed information about this problem.
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