"I don't want a projector" - new basement build - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 81 Old 11-18-2012, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Everyone, this is my second project on AVS. About 6 years ago I did my first basement/media room (in sig), well we've moved on to a bigger place and a bigger area to develop.

As stated, I do not want a projector - now its not that I don't like them, but we paid money to have larger and more windows in the basement, and my wife won't spend any time in a cave. Truthfully I like a bright basement as well. I don't want to do a dedicated room, I want it as open and as bright as possible.

I'm probably 75% done framing, I'll post some pics of the progress in a day or 2.

Here's a pic of the floorplan from the builder, and what we plan on doing for the screen wall.

I will have lots of media related questions when I get to that stage - the only AV gear I have right now is an HSU Subwoofer. The rest stayed with the old place:) snip.PNG 704k .PNG file snip2.PNG 471k .PNG file

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post #2 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok so still plugging away at framing, apparently that last 25% takes longer than the first 75%. Purchased 500' of 14ga in wall speaker wire, debating on speaker choices. Thinking about monoprice inwall/in celiing, or to go with a marked down name brand set like this one from KEF.

Would like to hear your opinions on that, Liked the inwalls because of the bigger drivers, the LCR in that case would be the 7604 with dual 6.5 woofers vs the smaller 3" drivers in the KEF.

Another issue: Whats the best way to get a reliable HDMI signal over 75'? Dual CAT5/6 or just a larger gauge wire.

Some framing pics, I have progressed since but this is all I have:

Future screen wall, there is now a fireplace on a 72" wall on the diagonal to the left. Plans have changed to a more traditional fireplace vs the mid wall in the sketchup. Junk has since been moved out



Computer desk and closet



Future wet bar area (walk up)




So ya, thoughts on the speakers & HDMI issues will be appreciated!
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post #3 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

Another issue: Whats the best way to get a reliable HDMI signal over 75'? Dual CAT5/6 or just a larger gauge wire.

HDBaseT. Monoprice version here:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2

Or same thing with Ethernet as well (if you don't have multiple category runs available):

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8123&seq=1&format=2

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post #4 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

HDBaseT. Monoprice version here:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8122&seq=1&format=2
Or same thing with Ethernet as well (if you don't have multiple category runs available):
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=8123&seq=1&format=2

You should see the grimace when I clicked on those prices. Best/only option though?
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post #5 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

You should see the grimace when I clicked on those prices. Best/only option though?

Best option. I understand - you should note that 'brand name' HDBaseT extenders are more like $500 currently...

There are many, many cheaper options for HDMI-over-cat5, down to even $30-range... I wouldn't use anything that wasn't self-powered (the "passive" ones are problematic). Since you're able to run wires, the 2-cable solutions will likely be adequate, but if you want 3D support, make sure the device mentions it (higher data rate) at distance.

So, in short, you can try a <$100 solution that will probably work. (and I do mean probably, don't want to scare you...) Or the HDBaseT one, which *will*. I recommend you buy whatever cheaper solution from a vendor with a good return policy, just in case...

Jeff

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post #6 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Best option. I understand - you should note that 'brand name' HDBaseT extenders are more like $500 currently...
There are many, many cheaper options for HDMI-over-cat5, down to even $30-range... I wouldn't use anything that wasn't self-powered (the "passive" ones are problematic). Since you're able to run wires, the 2-cable solutions will likely be adequate, but if you want 3D support, make sure the device mentions it (higher data rate) at distance.
So, in short, you can try a <$100 solution that will probably work. (and I do mean probably, don't want to scare you...) Or the HDBaseT one, which *will*. I recommend you buy whatever cheaper solution from a vendor with a good return policy, just in case...
Jeff

Cool, well the good thing about these extenders/repeaters is that they are not inside the walls, so they can be changed out *if* a $30 solution doesn't work. Will go with the dual cat6 option, I think.
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post #7 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

Cool, well the good thing about these extenders/repeaters is that they are not inside the walls, so they can be changed out *if* a $30 solution doesn't work. Will go with the dual cat6 option, I think.

The $30 ones will be problematic at 75'. Pay a little more and get a set that are still dual-cable, but have a DC power supply (likely on both ends).

Haven't used these, but something like this:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=109&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011012&p_id=6532&seq=1&format=3#specification

(if you want 3D, you'll have to get something better...)

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post #8 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 05:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Hm, the whole reason I went 75' away was that in the cold room I wouldn't have to buy an expensive rack, so spending $200 to save $600?

Suggestions for rack?biggrin.gif
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post #9 of 81 Old 12-06-2012, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

Hm, the whole reason I went 75' away was that in the cold room I wouldn't have to buy an expensive rack, so spending $200 to save $600?

The other one I linked to from Monoprice is like $47...
Quote:
Suggestions for rack?biggrin.gif

http://www.buy.com/prod/peerless-avl-rack-frame-19-30u/219993331.html?listingId=-1

biggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

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post #10 of 81 Old 12-08-2012, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright while I am trying to figure out what I want to do with speakers/component location etc I'm still plugging away. I know last build I got a few PM's on the installation of the gas fireplace, it is not overly complicated for a DIYER but I wouldn't tackle it if you aren't comfortable with it.

Installation of the box itself: Not much to this, frame to MFG's specs, flip out the tabs (which give 1\2" for drywall to sit flush) and install with 4 screws.





Running the flue: I hope to get this done today. The flue on these is a flexible aluminum vent, a 4" tube within a 7" tube. The hot flue gases exit through the 4" tube and the cool fresh air enters from the outside to the firebox via the 7" outer tube.

Connections @ fireplace: - Just apply a liberal amount of high heat (red) silicone and tack in place with 3 or 4 self tapping screws.



8" hole cored in wall: There is a termination box that goes on the outside, I will stuff steel wool around the gap to prevent any bugs or critters coming in, although it will be completely sealed/siliconed on the outside.



Just a pic of the distance that the flue is going to have to run, I am going to have to tear down some of my ducting framing to try and gain as much headroom as I can as it transitions from the vertical to the horizontal. 1" clearance to combustibles must be kept at all times on the flue, while the fireplace itself is a 0 clearance model (you can frame right up to it.



Well I'll try to make some progress this weekend, we'll see how it goes.
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post #11 of 81 Old 01-02-2013, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Updates:

Build - The framing is done, a little bit of blocking left for drywall but I am so sick of framing I'm putting it off for a while. Fireplace is hooked up and operational. Plumbing is roughed in to both bathrooms and wet bar. Electrical left before drywall.

Gear: Purchased some electronics for the build

Denon 1913 reciever
Kef Q100 Bookshelfs
Kef C200 Center
Kef CI160CR Ceiling speakers for the surrounds. This will be a 5.1 with a dedicated zone 2 for the deck.

A new mock of the screen wall.

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post #12 of 81 Old 01-02-2013, 07:30 PM
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While you've got the walls open, wire those two bedrooms for in-ceiling speakers and volume control / keypads... You don't have to leave holes / plates for them, just document the wire locations with photographs. Home run the speaker wire to your equipment location.

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post #13 of 81 Old 01-02-2013, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

While you've got the walls open, wire those two bedrooms for in-ceiling speakers and volume control / keypads... You don't have to leave holes / plates for them, just document the wire locations with photographs. Home run the speaker wire to your equipment location.
good idea. I have 1k feet of wire so might as well use it up. No idea how to run volume controls; got a helpful link?
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post #14 of 81 Old 01-02-2013, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

good idea. I have 1k feet of wire so might as well use it up. No idea how to run volume controls; got a helpful link?

I really need to make one of those... smile.gif

Home run speaker wire (x2) and a cat5e/cat6 cable, bring all three to a switch-height single-gang low-volt outlet box. If there's a light switch at that location, place it above the switch (it looks best there, and if you use a keypad, it's closer to eye level anyway). The cat5e is for potential keypad / controller. From that location pull the the speaker wire on into the room to each of the speaker locations. The speaker wire is "looped" through this location so that you have your choice of using either a simple volume control, or a whole-house audio amplifier (where volume is controlled by a keypad).

Wire it that way, and you'll be able to install most any system available on the market...


Jeff

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post #15 of 81 Old 01-03-2013, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

I really need to make one of those... smile.gif
Home run speaker wire (x2) and a cat5e/cat6 cable, bring all three to a switch-height single-gang low-volt outlet box. If there's a light switch at that location, place it above the switch (it looks best there, and if you use a keypad, it's closer to eye level anyway). The cat5e is for potential keypad / controller. From that location pull the the speaker wire on into the room to each of the speaker locations. The speaker wire is "looped" through this location so that you have your choice of using either a simple volume control, or a whole-house audio amplifier (where volume is controlled by a keypad).
Wire it that way, and you'll be able to install most any system available on the market...
Jeff

Jeff, put what you said into diagram form (waaay easier to correct than actual work!) Let me know if this is correct for multiple room setup. AV whole home.png 21k .png file

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post #16 of 81 Old 01-03-2013, 12:46 PM
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Yep, you got it. Although if you plan to put two pairs in one room, I'd home run all 4 lines just in case you need the flexibility (or impedance-matching) later.

Jeff

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post #17 of 81 Old 01-03-2013, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Yep, you got it. Although if you plan to put two pairs in one room, I'd home run all 4 lines just in case you need the flexibility (or impedance-matching) later.
Jeff

Cool. One more question: Lets say I have 4 zones and 100W available. Am I correct in thinking with the impedance matching that each zone will only have 25 W max, regardless of volume on the other zones?
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post #18 of 81 Old 01-03-2013, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

Cool. One more question: Lets say I have 4 zones and 100W available. Am I correct in thinking with the impedance matching that each zone will only have 25 W max, regardless of volume on the other zones?

Impedance-matching is to adjust the load as seen by the amplifier. But yes, the power output of the amplifier is split among the speakers. Typical power range for whole-house audio gear is in the 20-40W/ch range, so while it may not sound like much, for this purpose, it will be fine.

Jeff

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post #19 of 81 Old 01-05-2013, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Thoughts/comments on the pot light layout for the media room...Doing the best I can with whats available (ducting). I would think 12 - 6" pot lights for a ~240sqft room would be adequate? Probably have the front 5 on a switch and the back 5 on another

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post #20 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 06:55 AM
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You could also run the wires without cat6, which is what I did. I then install impedance matching controls at each location. Cat6 would be better, though, as then you could control from a single location (as I have to go to each room and turn up/down the controls).

Bob
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post #21 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctviggen View Post

You could also run the wires without cat6, which is what I did. I then install impedance matching controls at each location. Cat6 would be better, though, as then you could control from a single location (as I have to go to each room and turn up/down the controls).

Sorry, but that is bad advice. Home run both speaker wire and cat5e/cat6 to any volume control / keypad location. You want to keep all future options open to be able to use any of the systems on the market.

Jeff

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post #22 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor View Post

Sorry, but that is bad advice. Home run both speaker wire and cat5e/cat6 to any volume control / keypad location. You want to keep all future options open to be able to use any of the systems on the market.
Jeff

I did exactly what I said, and it works fine for 8 channels at four different locations. I have independent volume controls at each location. Granted, running cat6/5 may be a better option, but then it depends on what you want to do. For me, running one source through all 8 channels is fine, using two channels of an amp. Wouldn't mind having independent control (different sources) at each location, but to be honest, I've never seen the need for that. And, the cost increases significantly. And my house is tiny (not a mega-mansion) so, there's not a need to hear one set of music in the kitchen and another in the living room, as they're right next to each other.

Technically, the way I can my system is a "home run" system (all wires run to same box).

It all depends on what you want to do.

Bob
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post #23 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 01:32 PM
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Meant the way I "ran" my system. Of course, I've installed everything in my house mysefl, all cat6/5e/cable to one location (and, sadly, music to another location). For me, I ran extra speakers to rooms only so that you can have the sound at a lower volume in the living room (one HT stereo) while listening at the same time in the kitchen. (The kitchen, living room and all other speaker locations except the garage are on the same floor and there's not much space between them.) I run several squeezeboxes, which I can control from any android or iOS device. The things I cannot do are remotely adjust the volume at one location/zone (I can adjust the volume while at the location) and play something on one zone and something different on another zone. That's not a problem for me, though.

Bob
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post #24 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 01:33 PM
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Hmmm...That section of his house is larger than my entire house!

Bob
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post #25 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctviggen View Post

The things I cannot do are remotely adjust the volume at one location/zone (I can adjust the volume while at the location) and play something on one zone and something different on another zone. That's not a problem for me, though.

Right, but telling someone NOT to add like $10 of cat5e wire on top of that so that he *could* install a more advanced system is the future is why I said it's bad advice. Nothing wrong with in-room volume controls all hooked to a single, shared zone amp. But if you find out that it's not enough at some point the future, being able to upgrade without having to worry about wiring is absolutely worth the ten bucks.

Jeff

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post #26 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I see where both of you are coming from. I'm going to run cheap monoprice controllers for now and there is a99% chance I'll never upgrade.

But I have the wire, so might as well use it and fut ure proof it.

Any thoughts on the layout for the pots?
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post #27 of 81 Old 01-06-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

I see where both of you are coming from. I'm going to run cheap monoprice controllers for now and there is a99% chance I'll never upgrade.
But I have the wire, so might as well use it and future proof it.

It will be 100% if you don't... biggrin.gif Don't take my word for it, what I've said is exactly what the CEA recommends for whole-house-audio pre-wiring...
Quote:
Any thoughts on the layout for the pots?

That looks like a lot of fixtures for that size room. I would think 3 on each row will be fine (instead of 4). My game room only has 4 cans and it's plenty bright just with those. My 2-story family room is lit with 6 cans... If you have any other light source for this room, I think even a total of 6 cans might be enough. With two dimmers, though, you'll have good control, though.

Jeff

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post #28 of 81 Old 01-07-2013, 04:36 AM
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+1, what Jeff and the CEA says.

It's easy up front, lots of pain and $ if retrofit.

I had to retrofit the category cables to my VC locations, when I upgraded from VCs.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. -Buddha

Give a monkey a brain and he'll swear he's the center of the universe. -Fishbone
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post #29 of 81 Old 01-07-2013, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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When selecting in walls should I be concerned about sensitivity? If I went 4 zones that would be the equivalent of 25w/channel@ 8 ohm, am I going to achieve party volume levels? More concerned about the workout room than anything, need quite a but of volume to overcome me slugging away on a treadmill.
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post #30 of 81 Old 01-07-2013, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHaveAMullet View Post

When selecting in walls should I be concerned about sensitivity? If I went 4 zones that would be the equivalent of 25w/channel@ 8 ohm, am I going to achieve party volume levels? More concerned about the workout room than anything, need quite a but of volume to overcome me slugging away on a treadmill.

Depends on your definition of party... Do the party supplies include wine bottles, or glow sticks?

Efficiency is important - and you should be able to get to a reasonable volume level for a workout or loud enough that you'd have to talk loud over it.

But not enough for dancing and strobe lights. biggrin.gif

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