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Why is dark walls so important?

13K views 128 replies 29 participants last post by  design1stcode2nd 
#1 ·
I understand why not having any external light into the room is important using a projector, but what about dark walls, is that really that important?


Let me present what I am thinking:


The eye has a good but not unlimited dynamic range, "external light" is most damaging when what is on the screen is dark, however with a dark screen, a lot less light will be reflected from the walls too? And if there is bright objects on the screen, those bright items will "Overwhelm" our vision much more than any light from the walls. Thinks like ambilight was reasonably popular, and that basically does the same as white walls, only much stronger. So is it really bad with white walls? (given that external light is controlled), what have I misunderstood?
 
#52 ·
I am taking the approach with mine that a totally windowless room with dull black walls, ceilings and floors is the best. Anything that I deviate from that "takes away." Dark blue walls? Not as good, but better than white. Can't paint the ceiling black? Ok, but be aware you're compromising a bit. Rear surrounds can't go 6' behind me? OK but be aware that . . . etc etc etc


You can't quantify most of these things, and if you could, I wouldn't want to be the guy to calculate the numbers.
 
#53 ·
You might also look into some other techniques to block and absorb the light reflected at wide angles off the screen. If the screen is built into a cabinet or recessed between short walls or otherwise windowed, the light could be absorbed by some velvet or other black surface such that it doesn't reflect back onto the screen. This isn't as effective as having a totally dark room, but could make a large difference while maintaining some WAF.
 
#54 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewaves  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/30#post_23385033


If your not looking for a Dedicated Room then why post in this forum? Any reflected light is bad, period, the darker the room the less secondary reflections you get, then the better the image is.


If your looking at a multi purpose room take it over the general forum and not the dedicated.

I think some of you on AVS need to get off of your high horses. Just because you have more money to spend on your Home Theater doesn't make you or it any better. I remember a line back from my old Saturday night drag racing days, "Run what you brung". I Think that can be applied to Home Theaters too. Work with what you have and/or can afford. It is only for the owner to decide if his Home Theater is dedicated or not, not you.



******** There are several reports over on BluRay.com of being ganged up on, on AVS because someone had a differing opinion. That is not what AVS was founded on.
 
#55 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by macfan  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/30#post_23385858


I think some of you on AVS need to get off of your high horses. Just because you have more money to spend on your Home Theater doesn't make you or it any better. I remember a line back from my old Saturday night drag racing days, "Run what you brung". I Think that can be applied to Home Theaters too. Work with what you have and/or can afford. It is only for the owner to decide if his Home Theater is dedicated or not, not you.

.

His point was that there is another sub-forum, one down from this one (Dedicated Theater Construction) called "General Home Theater & Media Rooms", where he will get a different set of opinions based on the topic. The OP didn't state initially that he was building a non-dedicated space, but later added that information. There's a big difference in the advice given based on that little bit of data... If he was building a dedicated space, I think we'd all push him very hard about choosing dark colors all around. In a non-dedicated space, I would soften that to a suggestion
as the compromise become a complex balance of room use / aesthetics and video performance.
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/30#post_23386099


His point was that there is another sub-forum, one down from this one (Dedicated Theater Construction) called "General Home Theater & Media Rooms", where he will get a different set of opinions based on the topic. The OP didn't state initially that he was building a non-dedicated space, but later added that information. There's a big difference in the advice given based on that little bit of data... If he was building a dedicated space, I think we'd all push him very hard about choosing dark colors all around. In a non-dedicated space, I would soften that to a suggestion
as the compromise become a complex balance of room use / aesthetics and video performance.

I apologize for that situation. My original plan was to have a general technical discussion about he matter that wasn't limited by my future setup alone. However when the discussion progressed it seemed necessary to be a bit more specific to bring the discussion forward, and now the thread is in the wrong place
 
#58 ·
Neat thread. I'm surprised that no one has actually done any math to determine if/what advantage dark walls make.


Lots of people seem to think dark walls are better, but there are also a lot of opinions that a $200/ft audio cable is better than a $10/ft audio cable, and the (blind test) numbers just don't back that up. Perhaps the same is true for dark walls.


I have recently remodeled my basement and we now have darker walls/ceiling, but I'm not quite sure that it has made any noticeable difference. When I play games or watch movies, I do not stop and think to myself that the walls are too light.
 
#59 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstanek  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/30#post_23387059


Lots of people seem to think dark walls are better, but there are also a lot of opinions that a $200/ft audio cable is better than a $10/ft audio cable, and the (blind test) numbers just don't back that up. Perhaps the same is true for dark walls.

Not the same thing... We know for a fact that stray light hitting the screen will negatively impact the contrast ratio. As for the math, the science involved is probably more compelling in biology and visual perception. Expensive audio cables are faith-based.
 
#60 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by jautor  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/30#post_23387148


Not the same thing... We know for a fact that stray light hitting the screen will negatively impact the contrast ratio. As for the math, the science involved is probably more compelling in biology and visual perception. Expensive audio cables are faith-based.

Well, you CAN measure difference between audio cables too, if you have good equipment. But that doesn't mean the impact is something we can hear
I guess you can say the same about dark walls, although its a measurable difference doesn't mean you can sense it (though everything seems to point too that the difference is indeed visible), but it would be interesting to get some more "Hard science"-discussion.
 
#61 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATWindsor  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/0_100#post_23387290


Well, you CAN measure difference between audio cables too, if you have good equipment. But that doesn't mean the impact is something we can hear
I guess you can say the same about dark walls, although its a measurable difference doesn't mean you can sense it (though everything seems to point too that the difference is indeed visible), but it would be interesting to get some more "Hard science"-discussion.

Sorry there is no need to math.. all you have to do is look.. I have seen it with my own eyes in more that one room. There have been photos posted in other threads like this in the past..

You have heard the folks from the dedicated forum.. Here is a thread in the projector forum http://www.avsforum.com/t/1465053/black-theater-improvment-thread-once-you-go-black-you-never-go-back/0_100


Another one from this forum http://www.avsforum.com/t/1442134/do-dark-walls-matter-yes-yes-they-do/0_100


It is not a question of does dark walls, ceiling and floor help, it is more do you care or can you live with the reduced contrast under certain content conditions. Is it a compromise you are willing to make. Hell I watch pawn stars and baseball while my wife has the light on reading.. Do I want to fight with her, or just watch the show..


To measure the difference you would need to measure the contrast of a screen and projector in the room painted white, then move the same screen and projector to a dark painted room, set it up the same and remeasure. You would focus on reassuring along the top and sides of the screen as that is where the reflected light does the most damage.
 
#62 ·
It also isn't an all or nothing prospect. While a matte black or velvet/matte cloth absorbs light the best that doesn't mean that is your only option. You could cover your screen wall in fabric or paint it black and then have your ceiling and side walls a different color.


Before I redesigned my theater space it was an open concept space with dark brown walls and a white ceiling/soffit. The walls including the screenwall did not have a noticeable impact on the picture and seemed to fade away. The white ceiling/soffit very noticeably affected the picture. I taped up a sheet of black construction paper/board and the difference on screen was obvious.


The carpet was also a light beige and while I can’t say it impacted the screen I can say it conspicuously stood out in your field of view compared to what I have now.
 
#63 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by fstanek  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/30#post_23387059


Neat thread. I'm surprised that no one has actually done any math to determine if/what advantage dark walls make.


Lots of people seem to think dark walls are better, but there are also a lot of opinions that a $200/ft audio cable is better than a $10/ft audio cable, and the (blind test) numbers just don't back that up. Perhaps the same is true for dark walls.


I have recently remodeled my basement and we now have darker walls/ceiling, but I'm not quite sure that it has made any noticeable difference. When I play games or watch movies, I do not stop and think to myself that the walls are too light.

Don't go there on audio cables. Please. It is a really good way to turn nearly everyone against you. Audio cable, has been measured to hell and also tested double blind numerous times. We pretty much know that as long as the gauge is equal....you can't tell the difference reliably at all; It is a measured and statistical certainty. One nice person actually made a nice page which does indeed show that cables like kinder cable are "technically better" ( http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/DIY-Braided-Speaker-Cables/ ). But considering the difference (milli dB) where the roll off starts and our threshold/capablity of hearing vs frequency ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22436407 ), you can't tell. Maybe somebody with a highly trained ear at high frequencies could.. but that doesn't make sense for the overwhelming vast majority.


As for darker walls, your experience seems to be lacking key data. This usually where the fight comes in as I posted above. One thing is that is an irrefutable fact is that reflected light back on a screen WILL reduce contrast. The math is simple. Lets say I have 1 lumen @ "black" on 1/2 the screen and 1000 lumen @ "white" on the other half. Now lets say I reflect one more lumen "equally" over the whole screen . My contrast just went from 1000:1 to 500.5:1. This is why when you turn a light on in a room, it is really easy to nuke your contrast into sub 100:1 unless you have a light canon. If you watch inherently dark movies...this comes quicker. If you watch brighter films (like animation) this comes later.


I stated this above....and I won't go into again. But I will summarize, light control becomes important when you set the stage to exacerbate unwanted reflections. Putting a black border on your screen sets that stage. It helps focus our eyes and immerse ourselves. But at the same time it sets up a contrast reference point our eyes can link too since our eyes will scan. In short, it is a two edge sword. Now how much "darkening" do you need in your room...depends on your room and materials. For "darkening", the key area is the ceiling and floor just in front of the screen. That is why some people will just work those areas. It is a "big bang for buck" on terms of minimizing a sizable amount of the light that may reflect back. But, if you are going to have a white room with white carpet/ceiling, the black border is probably the one thing you don't want if you sit a reasonable distance from the screen. In this case you might be better off by having your screen border-less. It will give your eyes a difference reference point which his your white wall which is now your "black". You still won't get amazing black level or contrast. But, what you will get is the removal of a visual reference of what black is.


But..the test for each person is pretty easy and chip. A black fabric from joans and a few sewing needles will give you quite a bit of "real data" to work with. You can then decide on your own "what works best" for you and level of comfort. For the people that are dropping $20k into a dedicated room and then more for gear and not taking that into account...well, might as well say "I just like spending money to say I have something expensive"
 
#64 ·
Personally, I don't like dark walls in my theater area, as it wouldn't look right as the rest of my basement is open. I am sure that some light bounces off my light carpet, and my white ceiling and creme colored walls, but I have never thought. "I can't see the picture well with these light reflections"...



As with many things, personal preference is key...
 
#65 ·
It's not saying you can't have white glossy enamel walls, ceiling and white marble floor. It's just that it's not optimal and you will have lower picture quality (and acoustics with a tile floor in this imaginary scenario) than you could have.


You also don't need the inside of a coffin and almost no one builds their theater space as such. Dark matte walls, floor and ceiling reflect less light back to the screen than light walls, floor and ceiling. It's up to you how much of a compromise you want to make.
 
#66 ·
One last thought.. Anyone ever go to a movie theater (built in the past 50 years) that has anything other than dark everything? As was said, it is up to the room owner as to what compromises they can live with... Bread and water or Steak and wine.. Both beat starving!
 
#67 ·
Trepidation mentioned the most important area to darken is the ceiling and floor directly in front of the screen. For a 100" screen placed in the center of a 9' wall, about how many feet out from the wall should be

Covered on the ceiling and floor to produce a noticeable effect? Some people have a lot of space in their theater rooms, so it's hard to gauge exactly what he means.
 
#68 ·
Very interesting thread.


I've been thinking of putting a PJ in my living room with cream walls and white ceiling as well. I do have some advantages however; 19' ceiling and no side walls. The light would have to travel a long ways to make it back to the screen.


My only question would be, how important is the color of the wall behind the screen? A lot of the photos I've seen in this forum and the dedicated HT forum have black or dark walls behind the screen. Would this make a big difference in a room with high ceilings and no side walls?
 
#69 ·
The back wall does not effect the actual image as the light from the projector hits the screen not the wall. That wall will be lit up by the reflected light from the rest of the room, especially if you have white walls and ceiling be they close or far away. The idea in making the back wall black is so the screen appears to float in nothingness and you remove all distractions of feeling like you are watching a big box in a room. You become immersed in the content on the screen. So in your case room aesthetics may be of more value than having a black wall. The reason I say this is that with all the white walls and ceiling even very high will still light up the room and you will see everything around your anyway, which may void the validity of the dark back wall especially if there are other furnishings or wall hangings to either side of the screen as it sounds like a very large room.

Hope that makes sense?
 
#70 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/60#post_23427021


The back wall does not effect the actual image as the light from the projector hits the screen not the wall. That wall will be lit up by the reflected light from the rest of the room, especially if you have white walls and ceiling be they close or far away. The idea in making the back wall black is so the screen appears to float in nothingness and you remove all distractions of feeling like you are watching a big box in a room. You become immersed in the content on the screen. So in your case room aesthetics may be of more value than having a black wall. The reason I say this is that with all the white walls and ceiling even very high will still light up the room and you will see everything around your anyway, which may void the validity of the dark back wall especially if there are other furnishings or wall hangings to either side of the screen as it sounds like a very large room.

Hope that makes sense?

I think I got. So in theory, no matter the size of the room or height of the ceiling, with white walls and a white ceiling, the light will be reflected back onto the screen and all surrounding walls; reducing contrast and immersion.


It isn't a huge room, 19'x15' with 19' ceiling. But where I would put the screen, it is completely open on one side to the kitchen and the other wall is a good 3' or 4' away. My wife and I were planning on painting the room gray, so maybe that would help with some of the reflection?


I wish someone would just make 100"+ TVs that were affordable to reduce the anxiety of building a HT/multi-purpose room.
 
#71 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyFTwedge  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/60#post_23427099


I think I got. So in theory, no matter the size of the room or height of the ceiling, with white walls and a white ceiling, the light will be reflected back onto the screen and all surrounding walls; reducing contrast and immersion.


It isn't a huge room, 19'x15' with 19' ceiling. But where I would put the screen, it is completely open on one side to the kitchen and the other wall is a good 3' or 4' away. My wife and I were planning on painting the room gray, so maybe that would help with some of the reflection?


I wish someone would just make 100"+ TVs that were affordable to reduce the anxiety of building a HT/multi-purpose room.

There was a post I had read a while ago with a similar setup. They were having some serious sound issues with the open side as there was an imbalance in sound. On the side with the wall you have a lot of reflection of sound.. the open side none.. So walled side is much louder and sound stage is all messed up.. I would assume with sufficient room treatment on the walled side you could tame it down.. (acoustic panels and such)


If you go with a gray that would be helpful and you could probably do a darker color gray on the back and walled side of the room.. like 2 accent walls or whatever the designers call it! ;-) It is all about compromise.. you may give up a tad of contrast and a little bit of immersion, but you have a really big TV screen!
 
#72 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyFTwedge  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/60#post_23427099


I think I got. So in theory, no matter the size of the room or height of the ceiling, with white walls and a white ceiling, the light will be reflected back onto the screen and all surrounding walls; reducing contrast and immersion.


It isn't a huge room, 19'x15' with 19' ceiling. But where I would put the screen, it is completely open on one side to the kitchen and the other wall is a good 3' or 4' away. My wife and I were planning on painting the room gray, so maybe that would help with some of the reflection?


I wish someone would just make 100"+ TVs that were affordable to reduce the anxiety of building a HT/multi-purpose room.

You have it exactly. However, your anxiety should be proportional to how much you are spending though. If you are the guy who drops less than a few 1000 on their HT gear (which is still an awesome setup), then the effects will be less pronounced because your projector's black level isn't that stellar anyways. But once you starting spending a few Cleveland's on the projector...then, you should probably start considering things. In your case, you will never have perfect light control (based upon your described room) so maybe the effects of reflections will be dominated by ambient light effects. My biggest advice is do what you can w/o killing WAF.
 
#73 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important#post_23381898


Most all AT screen fabrics are designed for a seating distance of at least 12-13ft or you will see the weave.. something to consider.

The 4k screens have a tighter weave. Also you can typically order samples. I did and could not see the weave pattern from over 9 feet for Seymour's xd material.


Also with this short throw consider DLP. They typically have shorter throw.
 
#74 ·
Here is a comparison of Seymour XD (AT), Seymour BW (non-AT)and Moleskin Spandex (AT). From about 10' away you don't notice the weave in the XD although as you can see here it is very visable (this is not 4k material)



I'm to hoping to finally get around to testing all three this Sunday.
 
#75 ·
With all the compromises you need to make, I would suggest a large (70"-80") flat panel instead of a projector.


I have a dedicated room, and I started out with a living room setup that I wasn't satisfied with. My room is very small (10x12) with a large (8') screen so went with black velvet on all the walls. I also built a ceiling tray that is covered in velvet, and have black carpeting to 3 feet in front of the screen. This way during a movie you have no idea how small the room is, and the contrast is excellent. I also have a High Power screen, so it looks like a giant plasma floating in the room.



I purposely bought a 3 bedroom house knowing one of the rooms would be dedicated. Those with less space, or living in apartments have fewer options, I realize.


You could always demo the projector of your choice on a white wall to begin with to see if it meets your needs. Over time you may want to tweak things to improve picture quality though.
 
#76 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by design1stcode2nd  /t/1475294/why-is-dark-walls-so-important/60#post_23440028


Here is a comparison of Seymour XD (AT), Seymour BW (non-AT)and Moleskin Spandex (AT). From about 10' away you don't notice the weave in the XD although as you can see here it is very visable (this is not 4k material)



I'm to hoping to finally get around to testing all three this Sunday.


Has anyone tested these for sound quality too ?
 
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