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post #331 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 04:40 PM
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Not nonsense, Jonathan. Far from it.

First of all, I'm comparing EIGHT 18's versus two. That's your difference in distortion. Not the alignment comparison.

Second... you know I'm just bustin' yer balls, bro.

Can't comment on the wind. Imho, high velocity turbulent air just screams 'severe port compression' in my mind. It's not a truth of the matter but it's not far off either. Under the typical playback volume that you use (reference or under) it probably is not happening with two Cap's. I said it long ago when you began this that you had a tall bar to beat with dual Cap's. Whether or not you're enjoying the full sealed alignment is one thing but the other is that you now own eight awesome 18's that you could convert to vented at any time.

I still think you should leave the eight sealed up front and plug in the Cap's nearfield. Seems to me that it would get you everything you ever wanted. *shrugs*
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post #332 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 05:10 PM
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Jonathan when your buddy was over I never cranked up the subs anywhere close to full tilt. My ears were timid at the time and since it was a Sunday evening I didn't want to go crazy with everyone upstairs.

If I were you I would go through a bunch of scenes, remember that 4 SI's were significantly more impressive on the clip from Battle LA, surely there are plenty more clips like that - and that was just 4 SI's and you have 8 drivers that are better than the SI's. When the Washington monument falls, the grenade in WWZ, etc. were crazy impressive in here and I'd be surprised if the experience is the same with the Caps since a lot of the bass is below 20hz on scenes like that.

I don't know why I'm trying to convince you of anything I really don't want you to sell the Caps. I think you would regret it.

I agree with Scott, put them behind your seat. Hmmm, no port wind that way... so maybe Caps up front and 4 sealed behind the chairs and sell the other 4?
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post #333 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
Good to hear it, and let's hope that Jeff is actually accurate this time when he said the 215's should ship this week....
No doubt. Luckily with the set back my mind shifted. Carpet is coming next week, will be great if they show up when the installers are done.

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woot for being finished reef!
Woot is right. I can finally say that construction finished today WOOT WOOT Now it is on to endless tuning I hope you get your PJ worked out. I know you love it, hopefully quick and painless.
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post #334 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 07:45 PM
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Hey Jonathan, if you do have to send your projector in for repair I don't think it will have to go far. I believe their repair center is in Leawood KS. I'm about to go down and have my last hoorah with the mackies before getting them ready for tomorrow.

Who else is coming?
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post #335 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 08:00 PM
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Carp is this you? It really looks like you... I saw the water balloon video.
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post #336 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
I still think you should leave the eight sealed up front and plug in the Cap's nearfield. Seems to me that it would get you everything you ever wanted. *shrugs*
^^^This. What's holding you back?
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post #337 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 08:39 PM
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Carp is this you? It really looks like you... I saw the water balloon video.

Haha, I should post it - that sucked - 2 times they got me. The thing is there is a friends kids birthday party on Sat. and they are doing the water balloon fight thing again. I'm out this time.
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post #338 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 09:56 PM - Thread Starter
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So my buddy came by tonight and we watched the new Riddick movie. We watched some of the same demo scenes again. When it was over I asked which setup he preferred. He said he couldn't really tell the difference too much. So I asked him specifically about a couple clips. The Michael Jackson "this is it clip" we played at +5 dB over reference with the subs about 10dB hot on both visits. He said he thinks he liked the caps better on that song. He said he didn't remember the storage room door banging around so much last visit. That's the sealed for sure, though the caps could do it too--- the door really starts banging below 16hz. He also said he liked the near field subs more this time and felt that the overall experience was enhanced by the near field subs over the buttkicker transducers I had last time.


He didn't think these subs were any louder than the caps - and I took both systems quite loud - +5dB over reference on several clips with the subs 10db hot or so. He said he liked the looks of the sealed cabs better. I said do you think these sealed sound worth $4.5K vs. $2.5K for the Caps. He said no, there isn't that much difference between them. He didn't seem as excited this go round as last - but then he'd already had the original Whoa experience last time.


Sort of anticlimactic I suppose.

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post #339 of 649 Old 08-28-2014, 10:49 PM
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Luke,

I'm not worried about integrating the caps yet. I'm just playing with sealed to get a handle and feel for sealed alone first. All in due time.......
We may disagree here, but I'd line my two caps up against five or six of those sealed UM18"s and feel comfortable saying it'd be comparable in output on any material you want to throw at it. (above port tune) I'll have some feedback tonight from my buddy who has only ever heard the caps one time (yes @popalock, the same friend who also recently went to carps and said he preferred the sound of the ported captivators bass over the eight sealed subwoofer bass -- different strokes for different folks) --- though I did crank the snot out of the caps. We listened to a few demo clips at 5dB over reference with the caps running 6dB - 10dB hot on his last visit. He couldn't believe how loud and clean those two ported 18's could go. He was giddy, fascinated by the sound, and laughing at how loud it was in the basement bathroom. Came out running saying I had to check that out. I do expect him to think the eight sealed 18" offer more output after taking them to max tonight, but I don't expect it to be a knock down drag out comparison. The caps hold their own on SPL output above 20hz as you'll recall from the 2011 meet where the single powered captivator made everyone in the room giddy during their demo. I can get into the low 130dB range at my seating position with the pair of caps without any hardship. If it's uber low material - I simply turn the analog HPF up a click or two on the mic2200 and set it loose.

Any rate - each time we play with EQ and work at setting it up a bit differently with these sealed it seems to get a bit better. My favorite so far is how it is setup now. Before last night's demo session I think I always preferred the caps more, even though I recognized some things seemed superior on the sealed, last night was the first night where it perhaps began tilting in the sealed's favor a bit more me.

These are the changes I made last night, subsequent to your configuration on tuesday night:




  • Semicircled the subs so the distances from each of drivers to the center seat are more similar as well as the differences in placement in room helping to eliminate that nasty null we were getting with the subs all in a line.
  • I broke the subwoofers into two groups - each run off a seperate subwoofer channel on the Onkyo PR-SC5508 instead of all subs run off one channel. (I should have done that earlier) The six up front are on 3 channels of the two iNuke DSP 6000s. All have the same exact EQ settings, all run off Subwoofer output 1. All level matched in pairs (which also happened to end up gain matched on the amp based on their distances being similar -YES, I won't have to worry about one pair running out of steam earlier than the others), and summed to the proper reference calibration dB as a whole group of six.
  • Changed the LT12 to be a 9dB boost instead of a 12dB boost and the dynamic boost LT12 to be a 6dB boost instead of a 3dB boost.
  • The two subs behind the chairs are now on subwoofer output 2. (turned off the manual delay you configured into the iNuke and just let Audyssey set the delay.) I also turned off all EQ manipulation on the nearfield except for a 9dB LT12, and a 6dB LT12 dynamic EQ. I just wanted a gorilla83'esque EQ for the two nearfield subs - let em sing!
  • So overall it is the same boost at lower volumes, but less at higher volumes since I actually shut down the amp a couple times at insane volumes (or much lower volumes and 5hz test tones ) before I made the changes.
I think your group EQ settings from tuesday night still worked fine, most of the changes were minor - but they seemed to fine tune it a bit - something I plan to continue to do. The two subwoofer outputs makes the timing perfect in the main seat where as with the manual delay it felt just a bit off to me (sort of a bit like transducers often do). (I probably could have got it there with manipulating the distance settings, but easier and more accurate feeling to let Audyssey just set the distances. Distances are set for front sub to 11' instead of 13' and 4.5' for rear subs through the pre-amp.

My ears are ringing today, and I've been dead tired for like a week straight -- but I'm having a good time with it. More binge audio tonight with those couple friends. Then the blind speaker test tomorrow night with whoever in KC is interested. Then my wife comes home Saturday, and life goes back to normal.
I just wanted you to do some back to back testing with the caps and new subs. Demo scene with caps, then switch to demo with sealed subs quickly. I am not that big on comparing what I was hearing/feeling the week before to what I am hearing now. Definitely should keep the caps around for awhile to compare and to try adding them into the equation. The captivators are very nice subs no doubt. The eq I did was very minimal with the shelf filter, one pull down, and one boost so adding on or starting over is easy.

If you would have level matched subs beside each other up front and not gain matched, I would have picked on you. Uh oh the new semi-circle trend has begun.

Here is carp's thread where LTD02 discusses the deq settings I was talking about.

Blending ported and sealed - analog vs. digital HPF... and other ramblings....

I changed audyssey distance with them all up front. It was 11ft., I tested and changed it to ~14 ft. Here is a good discussion on it, I do it with my center and verify with mains as I am more movies than music.

phase vs. distance?

Another Seaton quote, "FWIW, in any system I have measured, the sub is late to the party when apparently set up properly. Truly accurate setting requires acoustic measurements." Adding distance to sub brings the sub to the party on time.

It's simple to measure and verify, I recommend it.

So audyssey set the distances to 11ft. for front and 4.5 for rear. So it puts 6.5 ft of delay on the rear subs. I think I did put a little bit more than that. I find a bit more works, as while the sound reaches the mic 4.5 ft away, it is only 18" from the back of the seat so you feel it before it hits your ears. Like with time intensity trading with towing in speakers, I would rather the front subs arrive at or before rear subs. Anyways measure and try it out, to add more delay to rear subs just decrease the distance. If you find 6.5 ft of delay is the best setting for the rear subs but 13 ft measures better with mains than 11 ft. on front subs, just add two feet to the rear subs as well so 13ft front and 6.5 ft on rear.
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post #340 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 01:36 AM
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No, no wood shingles, but we live in a wooded area, and right next to Flemming park (which is all woods) and there are dead leaves and habitats everywhere outside in our yard. My wife is freaking out because she sees big spiders all the time outside, (and inside). She thinks she saw a Missouri tarantula a couple weeks ago that surprised here while she was cleaning up a pile of wood outside. She pretty much ran away screaming and was still practically shivering when she told me about it. We need to poison bomb our house or something. I kid you not, about 3 weeks ago a spider came down a line of silk and crawled into my shirt from the ceiling while I was watching a movie. I felt it walking down the back of my neck onto my back. I hollered at Megan to come down because I thought a spider, or some other crawly bug was in my shirt and I didn't know what it was (was afraid it might be a brown recluse which we've seen in our house on several ocassions and feared it might bite me if I distrubed it. Sure enough, when she tried to peep down the back of my collar he came walking up my neck. She squealed and hit me and knocked off the spider. It ran underneath the theater chairs and I couldn't find it. I believe it is plotting another strike, but I have no current intel.

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Watch a movie at my place at your own risk.
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Them's fightin' words if you ask me On another note, I am going to join PL with the whole spider deal. I am placing your HT in Nopeville, KS USA. Hey @popalock how are the scorpions over there in DOHA?
Not in my neighborhood man. I think it's too hot for scorpions out here... Maybe all the criters will start to come out during winter? I'll let you know.

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Jonathan when your buddy was over I never cranked up the subs anywhere close to full tilt. My ears were timid at the time and since it was a Sunday evening I didn't want to go crazy with everyone upstairs.

If I were you I would go through a bunch of scenes, remember that 4 SI's were significantly more impressive on the clip from Battle LA, surely there are plenty more clips like that - and that was just 4 SI's and you have 8 drivers that are better than the SI's. When the Washington monument falls, the grenade in WWZ, etc. were crazy impressive in here and I'd be surprised if the experience is the same with the Caps since a lot of the bass is below 20hz on scenes like that.

I don't know why I'm trying to convince you of anything I really don't want you to sell the Caps. I think you would regret it.

I agree with Scott, put them behind your seat. Hmmm, no port wind that way... so maybe Caps up front and 4 sealed behind the chairs and sell the other 4?
Or...or!!! Cap's up front and all 8 sealed behind your seats, double stacked rows of 4. On the FoTP plane crash scene, I can definitely feel wind wooshing over me when I'm pushing my SI's hard. Guarantee you will get the same effect from the higher excursion UM's.

Do it...
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post #341 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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I just realized I've been using the wrong terms for the shelf filters. I've been calling them LT12.


They are LS12 and LP12 based on whether they are dynamic or not. I apologize for the confusion.
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post #342 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 08:45 AM
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I just wanted you to do some back to back testing with the caps and new subs. Demo scene with caps, then switch to demo with sealed subs quickly. I am not that big on comparing what I was hearing/feeling the week before to what I am hearing now. Definitely should keep the caps around for awhile to compare and to try adding them into the equation. The captivators are very nice subs no doubt. The eq I did was very minimal with the shelf filter, one pull down, and one boost so adding on or starting over is easy.

If you would have level matched subs beside each other up front and not gain matched, I would have picked on you. Uh oh the new semi-circle trend has begun.

Here is carp's thread where LTD02 discusses the deq settings I was talking about.

Blending ported and sealed - analog vs. digital HPF... and other ramblings....

I changed audyssey distance with them all up front. It was 11ft., I tested and changed it to ~14 ft. Here is a good discussion on it, I do it with my center and verify with mains as I am more movies than music.

phase vs. distance?

Another Seaton quote, "FWIW, in any system I have measured, the sub is late to the party when apparently set up properly. Truly accurate setting requires acoustic measurements." Adding distance to sub brings the sub to the party on time.

It's simple to measure and verify, I recommend it.

So audyssey set the distances to 11ft. for front and 4.5 for rear. So it puts 6.5 ft of delay on the rear subs. I think I did put a little bit more than that. I find a bit more works, as while the sound reaches the mic 4.5 ft away, it is only 18" from the back of the seat so you feel it before it hits your ears. Like with time intensity trading with towing in speakers, I would rather the front subs arrive at or before rear subs. Anyways measure and try it out, to add more delay to rear subs just decrease the distance. If you find 6.5 ft of delay is the best setting for the rear subs but 13 ft measures better with mains than 11 ft. on front subs, just add two feet to the rear subs as well so 13ft front and 6.5 ft on rear.
I am going to +1 the distance things. Honestly audyssey will set my subs at 15 feet (accurate on the tape measure) but the crossover region is an absolute MESS if I leave it. I add almost DOUBLE to that to see the best splice in between the mains and the subs.

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post #343 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 08:58 AM
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I thought we had big thunderstorms roll through last night, or was it just your subs rumbling all the way from KC
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post #344 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 02:29 PM
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the clip from Battle LA

Which clip is this? Chapter?

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post #345 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 02:43 PM
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Which clip is this? Chapter?
Not sure the chapter, I don't own the movie. It's towards the end when they are opening fire on the aliens and the girls says, "they are going down like bowling pins," or something similar.
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post #346 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 09:41 PM - Thread Starter
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This is where the iNuke's tap out on Number Nin6 - Garbage with the current EQ settings. 1 tick louder on the volume knob makes clip lights occur. At this volume no clip lights through the whole song.


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post #347 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 09:44 PM
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This is where the iNuke's tap out on Number Nin6 - Garbage with the current EQ settings. 1 tick louder on the volume knob makes clip lights occur. At this volume no clip lights through the whole song.


Weak sauce!
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post #348 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 09:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh and the sealed UM18-22's actually locked us in the basement tonight.


Doug (avsforum member d_c) has some bass tracks he is playing. They actually flipped the lock on the basement door at the top of the steps and I didn't have my key on me. We all were trying to figure out what in the world we could do. The hinges were on the otherside, and it was one of those old school oval shaped locks that is only accessible from one side. All the outside doors upstairs were locked and my wife is in PA, and there are no other keys. ha.... My Captivators never locked me in the basement!?!?!?! that was something!


I decided to hit the door hard and the lock popped open, but otherwise I was thinking I'd have to break a window to get back upstairs because the house was locked up. Ha...we had a chuckle at that.


Nearfield subs really rock on these bass tracks Doug is playing.

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post #349 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 09:55 PM
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That's definitely a first. Wouldn't be all bad to be locked in your theater for a while
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post #350 of 649 Old 08-29-2014, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Oh and the sealed UM18-22's actually locked us in the basement tonight.


Doug (avsforum member d_c) has some bass tracks he is playing. They actually flipped the lock on the basement door at the top of the steps and I didn't have my key on me. We all were trying to figure out what in the world we could do. The hinges were on the otherside, and it was one of those old school oval shaped locks that is only accessible from one side. All the outside doors upstairs were locked and my wife is in PA, and there are no other keys. ha.... My Captivators never locked me in the basement!?!?!?! that was something!


I decided to hit the door hard and the lock popped open, but otherwise I was thinking I'd have to break a window to get back upstairs because the house was locked up. Ha...we had a chuckle at that.


Nearfield subs really rock on these bass tracks Doug is playing.
Haaha, now you know that you need a backup escape route when giving a demo at full tilt!

SO, who all ended up showing up tonight? I was expecting this threat to heat up a bit, but I guess you guys are busy jamming out.

Everyone get to hear the Social Network tracks on your system? You coming around to this sealed non-sense yet?
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post #351 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 12:22 AM
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Carbon Prevails and Magnetic both from that soundtrack. I have been putting together some good demo tracks in my Spotify account, so we ran thru those. The subs sound great, and feel great with a pair behind the chairs. I think the subs have some moving around to do still to sound their best. I'd like to hear 4 behind the chairs, one in each corner, caps front center. The Mackies did great too, or was it the JTR that sounded great...


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post #352 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 03:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Honestly ---- In blind stereo listening at -5 dB I couldn't tell the difference. I actually guessed wrong. In blind listening at +10 to +15 dB above reference I guessed right. The JTRs were a little cleaner at crazy volumes. Nothing like a little blind testing to show you how much placebo there is in this hobby. There are still a few reservations I have about the Mackie, (less power handling,90Hz port tune, and my (apparently groundless) suspicion they sometimes sound a bit off in some of my prior demo sessions), but regardless ---- at their street price they are an insane value.

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post #353 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 03:59 AM
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It was a great night with great people and a not so great movie. I'll post more later. It's 4:59 and I am waiting for McDonald's to open.
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post #354 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 05:47 AM
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I'm ticked I missed this...

Locked in the basement? Hahaha, no way I actually would have loved to have been there that is too funny. Like David said, not such a bad thing to be locked in the HT room. Hmmm you already have a bathroom down there and a door to leave the house. Now all you need is a shower and a second kitchen (plenty of room for both) and you can get locked down there for weeks at a time.

As far as the Macke vs. 228 thing I don't know man, I still think something is up with the baffle wall thing. The 228's don't sound like themselves in the baffle wall for 2 channel stereo. I completely understand why you listen in all channel stereo, I don't think I would listen in 2 channel either. Something seems missing or off. I know baffle wall is supposed to be the end all be all but both you and Tim have also said you aren't crazy about how 2 channel sounds with the baffle wall. So you guys didn't compare them out in the room? I wonder if the differences would have been more apparent.

The real point here though is that it is insane that you bought the Macke's for 129 freaking dollars a piece. That has to be one of the best bang for the buck purchases in the history of audio. I told you they sounded GREAT at the park last year!!

Did you guys try the Caps behind the couch?
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post #355 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 07:17 AM
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The worst part about the door to the upstairs getting locked is that Jon's giant spider couldn't get up there to bring down more beer and snacks. I think it might have been the one who locked it in the first place.

We didn't do anything with the Caps. That would take a who day by itself moving all those subs around to incorporate them best. I brought a pair of LAB15 to put behind the couch, but they were pretty well dwarfed by the UM18.


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post #356 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
It was a great night with great people and a not so great movie. I'll post more later. It's 4:59 and I am waiting for McDonald's to open.
If I had been watching Need for Speed by myself I would have turned it off without even finishing it -- probably before half way through. It is one of the worst movies I've seen in a long time. @Luke Kamp, I blame you on your recommendation -- it's not even good sound IMO. The vocals were all muffled half the time and no movie that bad is worth watching no matter how good the car sounds could possibly be. Your movie recommendation respect in my book just dropped off the chart. Luke, you've got a lot of ground to recover before I start taking your recommendations seriously again. 22% at rotten tomatoes should have told me something.


If you've played the need for speed games - imagine those made into a movie - very similar plot depth - shallow characters, muffled voices, lame jokes, stupidity abounds, ridiculously impossible car racing scenes, better suspend your disbelief/intelligence at the door - and even knowing those things were part of it going in ---it was still horrible...


http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/need_for_speed/


Stitch1 turned to me at one point and said - you know what the difference is between this movie and the Fast and Furious Franchise? I said this one sucks? He said "pacing" - this one doesn't have it. It's soooooo slow in between action and the action is soooo unbelievable it's not enjoyable.


agreed.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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Last edited by Archaea; 08-30-2014 at 11:29 AM.
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post #357 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 11:37 AM
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Hahaha, so.... you're sayin' you didn't like it??

Knowing Luke I'm sure he's very offended at your review of his pick, haha.
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post #358 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 11:41 AM
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Stitch1 turned to me at one point and said - you know what the difference is between this movie and the Fast and Furious Franchise? I said this one sucks? He said "pacing" - this one doesn't have it. It's soooooo slow in between action and the action is soooo unbelievable it's not enjoyable.


agreed.
+1 - terrible movie. You always knew what was going to happen next.
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post #359 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 12:20 PM
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Geez Luke. You're not the man I thought you were. You are uninvited to everything I ever plan on attending. If I ever meet you at a GTG, please just sit in a corner and keep your opinions to yourself...
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post #360 of 649 Old 08-30-2014, 12:59 PM
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No offense taken, I told you the movie was horrible. I posted on data-bass the 7.1 soundtrack made it worth a rent. What can I say, its been a lousy summer for movies. Amazing spider man 2, 300 rise of an empire, divergent, blah blah blah. Have really been enjoying cosmos: a spacetime odyssey I picked up when I got tasm2. Didn't like godzilla in theater so really looking forward to picking up captain america 2 and edge of tomorrow and giving them a spin.

Baffle wall inflates the bass on a speaker above its crossover to the subs and speakers designed for it will have boundary gain compensation taken into consideration. Check out tux's thoughts on the 228's here, " think JTR tuned these high to add that low end grunt. As a result, these will have a very grunty husky low end which can sound very nice, but does add coloration to the tonality." A baffle wall will only add to this.

Vancouver Summertime GTG Results

With the mackies being -3 at 89hz and possibly not being designed for a bit of low end grunt, may have a flatter frequency response through this region. Would be interested to see comparison graph between the speakers in the baffle wall without subs to see if my hunch is correct.
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