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post #361 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Geez Luke. You're not the man I thought you were. You are uninvited to everything I ever plan on attending. If I ever meet you at a GTG, please just sit in a corner and keep your opinions to yourself...
WHAT, I got Sex in the City 2 on blu ray waiting for when you visit. Its an excellent mix with zero muffled voices.
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post #362 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 02:02 PM
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I am going to +1 the distance things. Honestly audyssey will set my subs at 15 feet (accurate on the tape measure) but the crossover region is an absolute MESS if I leave it. I add almost DOUBLE to that to see the best splice in between the mains and the subs.
That sounds like a large change in delay. With 80 hz wavelength at 12ft, I would be worried your subs may be arriving a full cycle before the mains. Not sure the best way to check that is, if there would be a difference in phase plot or impulse response? Its probably fine, I am just throwing it out there.

Couple funny stories of mine. I tried my receiver after using an amp on mains, then put amp back in equation. Watched an episode of the pacific and noticed a few times the bass was coming from the left side. Listening to music afterwards it appeared to come from side walls, sure enough I had the right channel wired backwards. Besides the bass being off hardly noticed it while watching the show.

Another time I had been comparing 5.1 sources and 7.1 sources and the use of plIIx. About two weeks passed before I realized I had left off plIIx and the rear channel speakers hadn't even been on for a while.
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post #363 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 02:30 PM
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So we started out just playing around with the new 8 sealed 18"s with the JTR's. The new subs are pretty awesome. I wasn't digging the near field subs at first. I was of the minority though. However, after Jonathan humored me with some testing with just the near field subs and then the front subs alone. We also played with crossovers a bit. He then made some changes so the near field blended in with everything MUCH better. They made me a near field believer pretty quickly with all the adjustments made.

Doug D_C then played some awesome demo tracks he had found on Spotify. The song called Garbage was one of the highlights up the night. After a while I went up to get the Mackies from the kitchen but when I went to open the door, I couldn't get it to budge. So then I felt really dumb walking back down asking Jonathan how the heck he opens that door. He gave me a crazy look and asked what I was talking about. I was like the door knob feels loose or something. So he ran up and also couldn't open the door. He then told us about the old school dead bolt on the other side of the door. Somehow the sweet bass we were listening to has vibrated the deadbolt to lock. After some worse case scenario discussions Jonathan was able to get the door open. There really is a first for everything when dealing with bass.

We then swapped out the JTR 228's for the Mackie C200's and played some of the same tracks and a mix of music and clips. This was done so we could all hear what the both sounded like not blind. Both Doug and Jon added the tracks they wanted to demo during the blind test.

For the blind test we decided we would do two rounds. Round one was limited to -5DB on the receiver. Round two wouldn't have a volume restriction. They both went upstairs and I got to work setting everything up. They both took turns playing their tracks and sitting in the sweet spot.

We talked a bit about the results and then Doug had to leave. Jonathan and I then decided to watch Need for Speed. I will watch just about any movie but as was said before this one was pretty bad. It was slow, the action wasn't very interesting, and the plot way too predicable. To me it felt like a made for TV type of movie. We did swap out the speakers a few time during the movie, in an attempt to see what we liked better for this movie. We both agreed the sound from this movie wasn't top notch. Some of the cars sounded good but we couldn't get the dialog to sound right.

At around 4 something in the morning we decided it was about time to call it quits. Not sure I should mention this but yes Jonathan just had to play the Justin Bever track

Anyways, I had a great time. I can't really comment on the JTR vs the Mackies due to the fact I wasn't blind. But the Mackies are fantastic for the crazy low prices you can find them at. I have always been a fan of the 228's and would still take them over the 212's for my own personal preference. However, Crazy Carp! has me thinking very seriously about towers. So what does that tell you.

Thanks again to Jonathan for having us over and locking us in his basement! He really does have a great theater down there.

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post #364 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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ha....

@stitch1
"Not sure I should mention this but yes Jonathan just had to play the Justin Bever track "


strange and I don't know why - but that demo track sounded horrible now and we both agreed --- something was wrong. The PC ripped clip? the sealed subs? The Mackies? Something was doing a grave injustice to "The Beib" That was one of my favorite demo tracks with the 228HT and the Captivator. The kick drum in that demo clip was second to none on my setup at the old house.

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post #365 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 04:37 PM
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I still think you are just hearing it the way everyone else is.

Seriously though, did you figure out what was wrong with that clip. All the video clips on his PC seemed off last night.
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post #366 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Wouldn't you know it?


These are the amps we used yesterday.

Cheap Crown Amp Power $99

Read matts take on them.

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #367 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 06:34 PM
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Interesting. So when are you going to ditch all these "fancy" amps and go back to a nice receiver?
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post #368 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 08:00 PM
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Archaea how high off the floor is your screen, also how high off of the floor are the 228.
Allen
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post #369 of 651 Old 08-30-2014, 08:43 PM
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Matt's measurements definately show the amp has issues with distortion. I wonder if they all measure that way. That's a real bummer if so.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #370 of 651 Old 08-31-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Luke told me to double check the polarity on the speakon and wiring for the speakers. Just in case......................................I thought pshhhh....but he was right to have me check.


STITCH1 - TWO OF THE FRONT THREE MACKIES WERE WIRED WRONG ON THE FRONT SOUNDSTAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not throwing blame - I may be responsible too?!?! but man...what a bummer.
The left speaker had the banana plugs connected red to black (opposite). So that was at least wrong for the end of the demo period movie watching. Perhaps only for that last session till now?


However, worse. One of the speakons speaker wire had the banana clip on the wrong way. Since I'm betting you weren't disconnecting the banana clips from the speakon each time - then we've no way of knowing which speaker that was through the night since I imagine the Mackies didn't necessarily go back in the same spot each time.






I have no way of knowing if things were correct for the blind test since we were only using two - - but ummmmmm - chances are they weren't right.
Since I haven't changed anything since our movie session - I can surmise that's probably why the Mackies sounded bad on the vocals for Need For Speed in our early morning movie watching.






I'm glad we are doing this again at Doug's house on Saturday - I pretty much feel like I need to discard this listening test wholly. I also want to investigate the X1000 amp distortion issue that Matt has referenced. The whole thing is being driven by X1000 amps since I sold my Sherbourn. I've asked Matt how I can test that.

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post #371 of 651 Old 08-31-2014, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Luke told me to double check the polarity on the speakon and wiring for the speakers. Just in case......................................I thought pshhhh....but he was right to have me check.


STITCH1 - TWO OF THE FRONT THREE MACKIES WERE WIRED WRONG ON THE FRONT SOUNDSTAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The left speaker had the banana plugs connected red to black (opposite). So that was at least wrong for the end of the demo period movie watching. Perhaps only for that session.


However, worse. One of the speakons speaker wire had the banana clip on the wrong way. Since I'm betting you weren't disconnecting the banana clips from the speakon each time - then we've no way of knowing which speaker that was through the night since I imagine the Mackies didn't necessarily go back in the same spot each time.






I have no way of knowing if things were correct for the blind test - but ummmmmm - chances are they weren't.
Since I haven't changed anything since our movie session - I can guess that's probably why the Mackies sounded bad on the vocals for Need For Speed in our early morning movie watching.






I'm glad we are doing this again at Doug's house on Saturday - I pretty much feel like I need to discard this listening test wholly. I also want to investigate the X1000 amp distortion issue that Matt has referenced. The whole thing is being driven by X1000 amps since I sold my Sherbourn. I've asked Matt how I can test that.


This is the kind of thing that would happen to me. I always F something up!! Ahh, oh well. We'll see what's up when we go to Doug's.
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post #372 of 651 Old 08-31-2014, 06:42 PM
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Man that does suck. I also agree you should throw out all the results.

In regards to the banana plug being black to red and so on... That last switch was done at around 3am. So, I can see how that went wrong. However, I can say I am confident they were never like that during the testing. I triple check them after each switch. That goes for the JTR's as well. Also, I was unplugging the banana plugs from the attached banana plugs. Never disconnecting the speakons. So that could have been a huge issue.

However, with all that being said, there is no reason the Mackies should have sounded good at all. Period. With all this stuff that could have gone wrong they still sounded pretty dang good on the music we tested. So either we all like the sound of out of phase music or the two we had during testing were fine. furthermore, The JTR's were up first then Mackie and then the Mackies again. So I never moved the Mackies between those two rounds and you even cranked them up to +15. Saying how good they were.

Now during the movie. Adding all three into the mix could have been the issue. But at that point who knows what was going on because the JTR's didnt sound good with the dialog either.

In summary, make sure everything is now setup correctly and listen to them again. Because if we were having problems, then the Mackies should sound EVEN BETTER. Not worse!

I too am glad you will get to test them again. However, this again will be in a different room in a different place and who knows how they will sound. But I am interested to see what everyone thinks. But remember what you really need to think about is how they sound in your own room and what you really will be happier with.
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post #373 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 08:39 AM
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That sounds like a large change in delay. With 80 hz wavelength at 12ft, I would be worried your subs may be arriving a full cycle before the mains. Not sure the best way to check that is, if there would be a difference in phase plot or impulse response? Its probably fine, I am just throwing it out there.

Couple funny stories of mine. I tried my receiver after using an amp on mains, then put amp back in equation. Watched an episode of the pacific and noticed a few times the bass was coming from the left side. Listening to music afterwards it appeared to come from side walls, sure enough I had the right channel wired backwards. Besides the bass being off hardly noticed it while watching the show.

Another time I had been comparing 5.1 sources and 7.1 sources and the use of plIIx. About two weeks passed before I realized I had left off plIIx and the rear channel speakers hadn't even been on for a while.
\


I am not sure what I was thinking, I went to look at my settings and it was definitely not at 30ft. Actually, the mains are set at 13.8 and it would do around 12 for subs, which actually mesh best at 15.1 and that is where it is currently. not sure when I had it at 30ft, perhaps back in the f-20 days

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post #374 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 09:19 AM
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This is the kind of thing that would happen to me. I always F something up!! Ahh, oh well. We'll see what's up when we go to Doug's.
whats this thing at doug's? where bouts does he live at? its about time for me to come to something else.
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post #375 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Doug is hosting a g2g at his house on Saturday night. You should attend. You'll get to hear the mighty gjallarhorns!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #376 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 12:00 PM
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Doug is hosting a g2g at his house on Saturday night. You should attend. You'll get to hear the mighty gjallarhorns!
Same ones that Lukeamdman has?
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post #377 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeap!

"Without subs it's just background music - with subs it's the main event!"
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post #378 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:24 PM
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Same ones that Lukeamdman has?

Check out his setup. It's so well done!! I took some pics when I was over there, I hope Doug doesn't mind that I'm posting them....

The G Horns are in the attic above his room - which is on a suspended floor.










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post #379 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:29 PM
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Like a boss!
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post #380 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:30 PM
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Also, that couch has to be the most comfortable couch I've ever sat on.
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post #381 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:34 PM
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Dayammm that is one awesome room. I bet it really rocks the house. Dual G-horns in the attic is pretty cool.

Current Gear: PJ – BenQ PE7700; Receiver - Onkyo TX-SR805; Blu Ray - OppoBDP 103; Turntable - Dual CS-515 w/ Ortofon Super OM10; Amplifiers - OdysseyKhartago, Adcom GFA555, QSC RMX 1850HD; PEQ - Behringer FBD2496 [Near FieldSub], miniDSP 2×4 [Flanking Subs], REW; Speakers - 4 Pi (w/B&C DE250/JBL2226H) × 3 [LCR], Yamaha Crap × 2 [surrounds], Exodus Audio Maelstrom-X18" sealed sub [near field sub], LAB-12 based ported sub tuned to 22 Hz x2 [flanking subs, XO set at 40 Hz]
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post #382 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:43 PM
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That couch made me fall asleep on it Sunday, that and the box of Coronas


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post #383 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Doug has a cool build thread!

Doug's Stealthy living room HT

Hoisting those gjallarhorns up into the attic was a huge project in itself!

I got to hear them when they were behind his couch. hehehe. I don't know that they would have left that spot if it were my house.

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post #384 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 03:48 PM
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Wow, doug, that is incredible! Fine work indeed. What type of veneer/stain is that on the SEOS build? I love it. Very classy looking Ever given any thoughts to some sound treatments handling the secondary reflection points of the LR's? Might tighten up that soundstage just that much more. I can tell lots of care was taken to the room design though, so you might not feel it is necessary!

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post #385 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 04:42 PM
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Archaea's multi-purpose Home Theater room

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Wow, doug, that is incredible! Fine work indeed. What type of veneer/stain is that on the SEOS build? I love it. Very classy looking Ever given any thoughts to some sound treatments handling the secondary reflection points of the LR's? Might tighten up that soundstage just that much more. I can tell lots of care was taken to the room design though, so you might not feel it is necessary!

Yes, it is a vintage archaic rice paper backed veneer from an old growth mediumdensityfiberboardicus tree applied with free-range egg whites and honey marmalade glue . I know, I know, I need to finish them. Soon...

I'm not sure if I am getting bad reflections or not. I figured the left wall would cause problems. Hopefully the guys can help me out at the gtg. I would build some AT printable fabric panels with some wife-approved art if I need some absorber/deflector.

Hey Jon, do you have any panels laying around that we could experiment with?

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post #386 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 04:57 PM
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I can bring some over, I have 4 on the walls and 3 on the ceiling. The ceiling panels would be too much of a pain to try to hang again but I can bring over the others. If you need more Luke has a bunch (if he is coming over).
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post #387 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 04:58 PM
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Haha. Egg whites, would have never thought about using those to soften up/raise woodgrain Good call, will give that a shot next build that ensues this week.

There is quite the controversy over treating or not treating primary reflections. With your speaker locations and the directivity of the SEOS12 horn, I feel like you should be in good shape, but the secondary reflections of the speaker opposite the wall treated would probably yield some good results further up in the FR and really lock in the overall soundstage a little better if I had to guess. That really only leaves you two panels that you would likely need to start with. Ceiling panels and a floor rug of some sort would by my next suggestions. I don't understand WAF really, I just let her loose on the rest of the house and I get my dedicated room that I can do pretty much anything I want. That is my consolation prize I recon It is pretty clear when you step foot into the staircase to the theater, as well as the room itself that she had literally NOTHING to do with it...Haha

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post #388 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 05:01 PM
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Also, just joshing with you a little about the mains. I had my F-20's in my room for close to 8 months before I finally decided to paint them. It literally took sliding some paper under them and about an hour of rolling flat black pain on them. I don't know why I ever waited that long as the looked way better after the paint was applied, just disappeared with movie watching
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post #389 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Haha. Egg whites, would have never thought about using those to soften up/raise woodgrain Good call, will give that a shot next build that ensues this week.

There is quite the controversy over treating or not treating primary reflections. With your speaker locations and the directivity of the SEOS12 horn, I feel like you should be in good shape, but the secondary reflections of the speaker opposite the wall treated would probably yield some good results further up in the FR and really lock in the overall soundstage a little better if I had to guess. That really only leaves you two panels that you would likely need to start with. Ceiling panels and a floor rug of some sort would by my next suggestions. I don't understand WAF really, I just let her loose on the rest of the house and I get my dedicated room that I can do pretty much anything I want. That is my consolation prize I recon It is pretty clear when you step foot into the staircase to the theater, as well as the room itself that she had literally NOTHING to do with it...Haha
Yeah. Good point. Some people do like treating the first reflection and some don't.

An even better approach is the opposite side reflection. Sorry, I forgot the technical term for this one.

What you want to do is the mirror trick, same as you would do for the first reflection. Have someone hold up a mirror while you sit in your MLP. But instead of treating the traditional first reflection you want to treat the opposite reflection from opposing speakers. So what you do is on the left wall you want to treat the spot where the right speaker is reflected and then again for the right wall and the left speaker. The idea is that you don't want to hear stuff that is meant to be on the left side on the right wall and vice versa. It's better to get a first reflection of the left speaker on the left wall then to get left speaker information coming off the right wall and mess up all that sweet imaging.

Make sense?
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post #390 of 651 Old 09-02-2014, 06:27 PM
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Thanks for the good advise about the treatments because I'm clueless about this part - please keep it coming in My Media Room Remodel thread. Sorry for the OT Archaea!!

Last edited by d_c; 09-02-2014 at 06:46 PM.
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