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post #1 of 100 Old 09-09-2016, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Outstanding HT in a Common but Special Room

Edit 10/17/2016: Photos changed to use Photobucket.

Edit: 4/26/2017: Anyone with a Yamaha A3060 (or comparable AVR) who is interested in using "switchable 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2" as noted in my sig, please see this thread: The "Official" Yamaha RX-A1060, RX-A2060 and RX-A3060 AVENTAGE AVR Thread . Updated comments here: The "Official" Yamaha RX-A1060, RX-A2060 and RX-A3060 AVENTAGE AVR Thread . (Same thread, different post.)

I'm fortunate to have a fabulous listening room/home theater in my living room. I'd like to describe it to help others deal with some of their listening room issues and to get some help in improving mine and upgrading to the latest "immersive" home theater technologies. I keep trying to explain my setup and get questions, so I thought a thread that I can expand on would be helpful.

I've been into music (and later home theater) for more than 50 years. In the 1970s, I started building equipment so I could afford good quality and by the '80s I was working on improving my room setups/layouts. I'm a retired telecommunications engineer/programmer who got to spend lots of time talking with audio engineers and other experts in musical equipment just by following my own interests. By the mid-1990s, I had listened my way through eight different living rooms (we moved a lot..), learned how to get the best from each, had designed my ninth one and was started into high end audio in the room I still have now.

Of the living rooms I had to deal with, the best two for music (including my current one) have both had vaulted ceilings. That's not considered a good thing for Atmos and DTS:X -- but I'm sure happy with it! I'll describe this room and show some pics and show how some mistakes I made led to great listening. I'll also describe my speaker placement and ask for suggestions on whether it can be improved (without re-building my room).

Maybe the first step is to show my ceiling. It's vaulted with the front (cinema front) starting at 8 feet and rising to about 16' right begin my main listening position which is 12 feet from my screen. The combined living room/dining room extends about 12 more feet behind the MLP. Above the dining room is an "office" loft that opens to the living room making my total listening space more than 6000 cubic feet. (See my sig for equipment.)



More to come including speaker layout.

(With embedded pics, the following post from CharlesJ does not apply here.)
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Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 04-26-2017 at 11:21 AM.
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post #2 of 100 Old 09-09-2016, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richlife View Post
...
(Sorry about that sideways pic. Hope the others aren't like that. If anyone know how to fix it, I'll edit and change.)
That's what happens with windows 10. When you rotate it on a win10 computer, it looks proper. But when you export it, it is in its original position.
You have to other then a win10 image so you can save it and properly register. Perhaps what was used on win7 computers?
Or, export it to a thumb drive and find a win7 setup, rotate it and save it then upload it.
Whoever designed that feature in win10 is brainless.
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post #3 of 100 Old 09-09-2016, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Along the bottom of the pic above is the top edge of a six foot high wall unit that holds the tv. On top, just in front of the house gargoyles you can see the front presence. Currently inexpensive Yamaha bookshelf speaker, but they do pretty well. They are canted at 45* to reflect off the ceiling which is also near 45* (5/12 slope). That puts the reflection point at about 11 feet high and 8 feet in front of the MLP. The true slope of the vaulted ceiling rising into the loft above is shown in the second pic below.

To the side of the MLP about 7 feet away and 6 feet up are the surrounds. These are bipoles (the white parallelogram speakers). Notice how they radiate forward and also back which goes right into a "false" wall to the right of MLP created by another wall unit. On the left side of MLP there is a jog in that side wall which creates another corner. (That was a bit of luck from a "miscalculation" in my room design. I'll describe later.) So both sides have corners that they reflect from which augments the surround effect and contributes to the overhead since they are 2' above MLP ear level.

The two pics below show the position of my side surrounds in their "corners" and the back surrounds at the rear.





Those high surrounds along with the front presence create the excellent overhead effects with just 7.2.2. (I tried using those side surrounds as rear presence, but that was not impressive at all. I also tried my rear towers as rear presence, but again, not impressive. You can see the rear towers on each side of the hutch against the back wall behind the MLP in the first pic above.) Finding the right angle for the front presence was a lot more helpful in creating the full overhead effect. I want to replace the front presence with ELAC A4s -- the thinking is that the focused "beam" will help the ceiling reflection and therefore the object location.

Now if I can just find a way to place the rear presence that will keep my wife happy while being successful in completing the rearward overhead effect. I currently have the RPs sitting on the rail above and just behind the MLP firing upward, but that is barely effective -- not sure that the 7.2.2 isn't just as good. I've only used manual config so far, but still don't expect much even with YPAO. Again, using ELAC A4s may help, but likely another solution in needed.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-16-2016 at 12:02 PM.
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post #4 of 100 Old 09-11-2016, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Most won't notice, but I got the mods to move this thread to this more appropriate forum -- and many thanks for the great service! I asked and within a few minutes the change was made...

So I made a comment in the Yamaha ...A3060 Owners forum that I had personally learned that (despite being very happy with my 7.2.2 setup) I was able to find a 7.2.4 configuration that is distinctly "more better". I'll describe details below, but if you look at this pic, you'll see some of the ways that this is truly a "weak" 7.2.4 setup -- but it sounds great!



This shot taken from in front of my tv and looking over the MLP, shows the connected dining room with the open loft overhead. To each side just behind the MLP are the new (and temporary) Rear Presence speakers. You can see that the right RP speaker is propped on top of the wall unit (left side of pic), while the left (yes, on the other right side ) is balanced on a step ladder and on a box set of "The Lord of the Rings" to match the height. Not ideal at all being only about 6 feet up and only three feet behind my Side Surrounds -- but it works! And what it does properly, is to push the Atmos rearward effects back behind the MLP.

This was tested with my only Atmos movie -- John Wick. NOW I know the difference between the rain splashing actually overhead with 7.x.4 versus with 7.x.2 -- big improvement!

Next post for the details of what's WRONG with this setup and how I want to correct it.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-16-2016 at 05:12 PM.
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post #5 of 100 Old 09-11-2016, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Some things I plan to lay out in this thread:

-- What's wrong with this 7.2.4 setup? (Seriously -- that's a question for anyone.)
-- My thoughts on fixing those issues.
-- What's wrong with this HT room? (Lots, but...)
-- Why this HT room works so well.
-- My thoughts on working with a vaulted ceiling for "immersive" audio. (I'm always open to input.)
-- Some ideas about this room as a really great music listening room.

So for right now, I have this 7.2.4 layout that works just fine, but can be improved tremendously.

Let's start (just like with the Front Presence) the cheap speakers I'm using. They work ok, but better speakers always can improve the sound if you have a good basic speaker assortment to start with and you have a good AVR (amp, whatever) to drive them. If everything else is crap, you have to start improving somewhere -- but the place to upgrade would be the mains not the presence. My mains and other speakers are fine -- only the presence speakers need to be upgraded.

Next, the positioning of the RPs. Look at the Dolby recommendations -- that say 8 feet or more in height. They also say the rear height/presence should be "about" 45* behind the MLP. Spread out unevenly like these are, doesn't help with the object placement (imaging). And they are only three feet from my surrounds when 45* would about double that.

Do I really need to talk about "balancing" on a wall unit and propped up on a ladder? How about the (unseen in the pic) speaker wires across my living room into the dining room to these speakers? Probably not good (you should hear my wife!).

The good thing is that you can establish a setup like this and get a real idea of what could work. I started with the Rear Presence on the loft rail firing up. Not good at all -- muddied the sound imaging. Then I moved them down to a level midway up the rail and about lined up with the main speakers. (At least that part followed the recommendation.) That was actually better, but being only about a foot behind and 8 feet above the MLP, it only slightly extended the rearward effects. (I could sort of A/B that arrangement with my 7.2.2 setup by changing the config in the Yamaha. Definitely a noticeable rearward expansion by being attentive, but no special improvement. However with this temporary setup which is more in line with the Dolby recs, there is a definite improvement. If it weren't for the precarious positioning, I would leave it until I can do a permanent setup (it's that much better than my 7.2.2 config). But then my wife probably won't endorse having a ladder, etc. as a dinner guest.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-02-2016 at 09:07 AM.
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post #6 of 100 Old 09-12-2016, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Speaker Setup: In the plan below, you can see both my current setup and the plan I now have for fixing the problems above. The full room(s) measurements are 18' at widest with the dining area kind of offset by 4 feet and 40 feet total length. Major furniture is outlined in black, the speakers are red. The 55" screen is shown within the wall unit outline which is flanked by the towers (they are actually toed in toward the MLP). Center sits on a shelf over the screen, with FP above on top of the wall unit and positioned about a foot inside the mains.



The Side Surrounds are mounted at the 6 foot level, each in it's own "corner" of the living room. The left is in the "jog" from the windows, the right next to another wall unit deliberately placed to balance the corner that is opposite. At the back of the theater, the Back Surround towers flank a hutch. I now plan to add ceiling speakers in the dining area as shown (though I will likely move the one near the outer door to be more in line with the left Back tower). Edit: When installed, the speaker near the door is actually about 2 feet from that wall. The RPs are about a 60* spread from the MLP.

For presence speakers, I'm probably going to use ELAC A4 for the front and Polk Audio V60s for the rear ceiling. It would be great to get alternative suggestions for either of these.

I used a Yamaha RX-V373 AVR to power the Rear Presence in my test setup. It's not bad for testing, but it's an oversized monster and using the remote for my A3060 also changes the V373, so I have to be real careful I haven't turned the RPs off completely when changing the A3060. I did setup the V373 at the correct starting volume, but that's one of the things changed (a decided no-no) by using the A3060 remote. The current plan is to replace the V373 (and sell it) with an Audio Source AMP100VS if I can be sure they've resolved the problems with cut off and trigger. There aren't really a lot of amp alternatives out there to drive a simple RP. Edit: I found a Setup option in the V373 to disable the remote -- so instead I have to turn that amp on/off manually.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-16-2016 at 11:04 AM.
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post #7 of 100 Old 09-12-2016, 12:26 PM
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Interesting thread. Your room looks challenging but you are making it work.

Your wife is very understanding. I have one also but not that understanding - the ladder would be right out!

Interested to see how your project pans out. I have a dedicated room with a flat ceiling that should be a little simpler but it still has its own issues to figure out.

I like how you are testing it out though before you commit. I'm slowly doing mine like that too (wires around the perimeter and considering jury rigging some presence speakers to see how it goes before making any dry wall cuts.
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post #8 of 100 Old 09-12-2016, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pilgrimpete View Post
...

I like how you are testing it out though before you commit. I'm slowly doing mine like that too (wires around the perimeter and considering jury rigging some presence speakers to see how it goes before making any dry wall cuts.
Thanks for the interest! Believe me, I pretty much always like to "try before buy", but having tried out FIVE separate ways to implement this Atmos/DTS:X upgrade (and absolutely not one could not compare at all the the sixth), I'm totally convinced!

Getting my wife to go along has also been a step-by-step, talk about, absorb commentary, prep, explain "temporary", and then finally show the result. Takes as much time as the actual setup... It also helps that she wants to change the chandelier, etc. and I see no reason to do it. Hmm, maybe we can reach a concensus.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-02-2016 at 09:22 AM.
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post #9 of 100 Old 09-13-2016, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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An update for today will just wrap up what I've talked about in extending to 7.2.4 (x.x.4) as a result of lots of research on speakers and external amps. (AVS Forums are truly invaluable.) For the external amp I'm going with the AMP100VS (but see here for "heads up": AudioSource AMP100VS help ). Many have recommended it and there really aren't many (any?) really good alternatives.

For front presence, I ordered the ELAC A4s as I had intended. https://www.amazon.com/Debut-Concent...ywords=elac+a4 . Not many reviews on Amazon, but lots of good reviews if you look hard enough. Some folks are not completely convinced of the ELAC over other Atmos speakers, but I'm not at all convinced that the extra cost most of them chose is really the right speaker for my installation (definietly not the Klipsch). Obviously I'll update soon.

The rear presence will be the RSL C34E: https://rslspeakers.com/products/c34...iling-speaker/ . The positive reviews for that speaker are truly overwhelming. I personally like the design (as I do the ELACs), and the cost is only a little more than the Polk Audio (for which there are yet no reviews though you can expect they would be similar to other Polks).

In the end, it comes down to not wanting to use possibly less than ideal for my installation and for consistency with the quality in my overall theater/music environment. No question that I could spend more, but would they be the "right" speakers for MY installation and would they provide any real benefits. Also, there is no question that I could get speakers for less -- I simply decided against that. And we all need to be aware that Atmos presence speakers don't exactly put out a lot of audio information on a continuous basis, so how much to invest is relevant. For the most part, at this point in the technology, they often just sit waiting for minor workload. But good quality is currently more important for not only Atmos/DTS:X but for various surround encoders and DSPs. All up-mixers use the presence speakers to the extent their creators decided -- not only to throw out "objects". (Believe me, I don't mean that as demeaning -- the technology is wondrous.) And the DSPs (especially Yamaha's new "Enhanced") may take significant advantage of those new "presence" speaker options.

So I found a balance that works for me at least in theory. I'll find out what reality is like and who knows...?

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-02-2016 at 09:25 AM.
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post #10 of 100 Old 09-13-2016, 03:51 PM
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They look like good picks.

I have seen those in-ceiling speakers recommended before. They seem very competent and would blend in well.

The up-firing speakers reviewed well. Now I'm in two minds - would you have got four of those in-ceiling if it would have worked for your room?
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post #11 of 100 Old 09-13-2016, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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They look like good picks.

I have seen those in-ceiling speakers recommended before. They seem very competent and would blend in well.

The up-firing speakers reviewed well. Now I'm in two minds - would you have got four of those in-ceiling if it would have worked for your room?
I really don't know. They get such good reviews, it's tempting. Let me answer again after I get them installed and can get an idea how they sound in place. The ELACs come in two days and will be a simple plug and play. That means play with the angle in almost any situation. I don't have a date yet for the RSLs and installation will take a bit more. Should be some fun to try to decide how speakers sound that are supposed to not really make their presence known.

Today, I re-read the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines, http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...guidelines.pdf . They were pretty specific that Atmos enabled speakers (the ELACs are an example) are preferable to the in-ceiling speakers. But they don't mention specifics or brands and they don't say much about in-ceiling speakers except that those with an adjustable tweeter may help with proper dispersion. And in all cases, they say that speaker and room characteristics and speaker placement will affect the result. Basically, nothing that we didn't already know -- it's a crapshoot to order and up to us to compare.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #12 of 100 Old 09-14-2016, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by richlife View Post

Today, I re-read the Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines, http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technolog...guidelines.pdf . They were pretty specific that Atmos enabled speakers (the ELACs are an example) are preferable to the in-ceiling speakers. But they don't mention specifics or brands and they don't say much about in-ceiling speakers except that those with an adjustable tweeter may help with proper dispersion. And in all cases, they say that speaker and room characteristics and speaker placement will affect the result. Basically, nothing that we didn't already know -- it's a crapshoot to order and up to us to compare.
Thanks for that link - very useful and I will read it religiously.

I'm surprised that the preference is not for the in-ceiling speakers.

Definitely interested to hear how you got on with the new speakers, when they arrive and you get around to installing.

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post #13 of 100 Old 09-14-2016, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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...
I'm surprised that the preference is not for the in-ceiling speakers.
...
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It looks like that Guideline was posted in 2015. Lots has developed in the home Atmos world -- especially in the speaker arena. Most in-ceiling speakers follow the same general design in one of two main ways: 1) Single woofer or concentric 2-way with fixed tweeter firing straight down with about a 45 - 60% dispersion pattern. 2) The tweeter is the directional component, so some have a tweeter that has some directional adjustment (about 15*). The RSL looks to be slightly different with double mid-range drivers and an offset tweeter -- all directed at an angle. My RSL order should get here by Tuesday, so I'll get to try them out.

I have no expectation of bass from any ceiling speaker. Though some exist that might provide it, I just think the best way to manage bass is with a subwoofer or two (or six) rather than have pounding in the ceiling. I also have no expectation of depending on either of these (ELAC or RSL) "Atmos" speakers to provide my main audio. I have great speakers that do that. I think good fronts/center is more important than trying to coax a "quality" sound out of speakers never designed to produce sound of a quality that any good bookshelf speaker can provide.

Making the decision to go with ceiling speakers for RPs, gets me into some awkward installation issues. My house is 25 years old and has major passive solar features that make running wiring after the fact something of a challenge. But it's really the same kind of thing others who develop their theater have to manage, so it just means more work rather than anything approaching the impossible. And as with most of these other enthusiasts, a major part of the work is trying to "adjust" the expectations/concerns of my wife. I started that discussion with replacement of a chandelier (which she wants to do), but threw in removing the popcorn ceiling (which she has talked about) and added maybe completely tearing the ceiling out. Going from there to drilling few holes and adding some wiring channels (which I now think may be all I need) made it all a little more palatable. (Also keep in mind that I designed the house from scratch and have completed some major additions and also finished the basement over the past 20 years. She tends to prefer my work to some of the professionals we've hired.)

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-02-2016 at 09:30 AM.
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post #14 of 100 Old 09-15-2016, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I just keep getting blown away with new levels of incredulity! I got my ELAC A4s today. As my rear presence are no longer balanced precariously where they don't belong, I have them turned off and am running at 7.2.2. I first listened with the YPAO 7.2.2 config I had established using the cheap Yamaha FP speakers and then I replaced those Yamahas with the ELACs. I'm literally shocked at the difference! I wanted "better". I got clarity. I got sounds I have never heard before in movies I have been testing with 7.2.2 and 7.2.4 for more than a week. I got imaging that wasn't there before. I got a total surround effect (with 7.2.2!) that blows my mind. I keep listening and it keeps getting better.

Ok, so how do I explain it. The ELACs appear to match my existing Mirage setup to near perfection (I say "near" because I can't believe it's really so perfect.) Nothing stands out. I don't hear speakers, I'm hearing sound all over (oh -- right -- that's what Atmos is supposed to be about...). In the burial scene from John Wick, I've been hearing the rain fall -- now I'm hearing the raindrops fall. The trickle off the umbrella is exactly that. In the early train hijack scene of "The Lone Ranger", the bandits are coming from out over THERE! The precision with which the actions can be heard is enthralling!

Ok, I quit. You can tell that not only has my Atmos setup improved dramatically, but I really think these ELAC A4s are fantastic. They are all that the best reviews say they are. Very high quality speakers for Atmos. Running in my vaulted ceiling room, they appear flawless. I started with them flat on the unit over my fronts and was delighted. After adding a little more angle to compensate for the sloped ceiling, I've been totally captivated.

And I still haven't run YPAO with the ELACs...
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Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

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post #15 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 08:22 AM
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Glad to "hear" your upgrade journey is progressing in a positive direction.

You confirmed for me that the use of the Dolby atmos enabled speakers (daes) in the fronts have made a very notable difference in the overhead sound effect with increased presence and clarity.

Rightly so, as they were designed with built in circuitry to further enhance and strengthen the psychoacoustic (overhead) effect.

Wait to you calibrate them properly with yapo. That should produce a notable improvement in the entire soundfield.

Over coming your various ceiling elevations with positive results is very exciting indeed. We share the "curisity killed the cat" thought process. That willingness to try something different approach has most always provided me with a huge smile. Congratulations to you.

L@@king forward myself to hearing the results of three months or more of researching, planing and executiong a 7.1.2 with JBL E-10 speakers as faux daes.

To a 7.1.4 with 4 pioneer daes designed by Andrew Jones.

Just working out the speaker location logistics. Trying to position them as close as I can to the daes setup requirements. To hopefully produce the optimal results and listening enjoyment.

L@@k forward to reading about your journey.

Take care

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post #16 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pilgrimpete View Post
...

The up-firing speakers reviewed well. Now I'm in two minds - would you have got four of those in-ceiling if it would have worked for your room?
After hearing the ELAC A4s in my setup, yes, I would have no hesitation in using four if the room permitted. But my wife objected to having speakers with stands sitting on the dining room table...

But Pete asked about in-ceiling. While I would have no problems with using the RSLs for all the presence speakers if I had a flat ceiling, I frankly think I prefer the option with 4 ELAC A4s. But overall, that may well be because the FP speakers generally contribute more to the soundfield that the RPs and THAT is what I'm sensing. Is that a fact or a perception on my part? Partly, it is because I assume that more of the sound "action" is to the fore. At times the RPs are more active and I'm quite happy with them also. The only way to be sure would be to swap them which is not possible at all in my room. It simply does appear to me that "Atmos" design intent of the ELACs is quite successful.

As I said, I really would have not issues with using four of either the ELACs or the RSLs if my room would support it. Cost is almost the same.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

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Originally Posted by LNEWoLF View Post
...

Over coming your various ceiling elevations with positive results is very exciting indeed. We share the "curisity killed the cat" thought process. That willingness to try something different approach has most always provided me with a huge smile. Congratulations to you.

L@@king forward myself to hearing the results of three months or more of researching, planing and executiong a 7.1.2 with JBL E-10 speakers as faux daes.

To a 7.1.4 with 4 pioneer daes designed by Andrew Jones.

Just working out the speaker location logistics. Trying to position them as close as I can to the daes setup requirements. To hopefully produce the optimal results and listening enjoyment.

L@@k forward to reading about your journey.

Take care
Thanks for the thoughts. Since I've moved around so much and had to adapt to a variety of listing rooms (as well as lot of other things ), it sort of comes naturally to "make it work".

It seems you have your own challenges. Those pioneer daes are some pretty amazing speakers.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #18 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pilgrimpete View Post
Thanks for that link - very useful and I will read it religiously.

I'm surprised that the preference is not for the in-ceiling speakers.
...

Save
Your comment sent me back to check those recommendations, Pete. I was right, but...

"Dolby Atmos enabled speakers produce slightly more diffuse overhead audio that is
quite lifelike and, in some cases, may be preferable to the sound that originates from
overhead speakers.
If the ceiling is low or you have to mount the speakers on overhead trusses or
brackets, overhead speakers may be too close to you as you listen. The audio may
be distracting because you’ll hear, directionally, what each speaker is producing
instead of feeling immersed in an atmosphere in which sounds occur naturally
overhead.
In this environment, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers may be a better solution for
reproducing the height plane of sound you would hear in a cinema, where the
overhead speakers are located high in the auditorium and are naturally creating a
more diffuse experience. Audio mixers and experts who have auditioned Dolby
Atmos enabled speakers agree that the sound these speaker."

My ceiling isn't low, but the awkward FP placement options seemed to say that following that recommendation was reasonable. I'm glad I went that route.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #19 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 09:14 AM
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My ceiling isn't low, but the awkward FP placement options seemed to say that following that recommendation was reasonable. I'm glad I went that route.
I did read that document and have read a few other sources. I'm still in two minds though.

For me, I see it as I could easily just buy 4 units like you have at the front and have Atmos tomorrow that works whether I change the room in the near future or not.
Or I wait a little longer, plan out the room more and plan to put 4 speakers in the ceiling (there is attic access although I've not been in it yet to see how accessible it is).

I figured I would do the one that was best but I see conflicting statements on which is the best for a mostly rectangular room with a flat, 8 ft. ceiling.

It's definitely heartening to read your experiences with your new speakers as if they work so well in that challenging environment, the technology for reflecting sound must be really good.
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post #20 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Going back to my original discussion plan,
What's wrong with this HT room?

Just listing items for now:
-- the vaulted ceiling (at least for Atmos)
-- that ceiling has many odd angles within the ceiling itself
-- the more than 6000 cu ft size
-- the hard surfaces all around (window wall, floors, etc.)
-- the odd angles from the offset side walls
-- the wide spread listening positions
-- it's a living room, not a dedicated home theater
-- no options for traditional sound treatments

I'll update this soon with how some of these are also benefits and how the problems can be overcome.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #21 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 09:43 AM
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Thanks for the thoughts. Since I've moved around so much and had to adapt to a variety of listing rooms (as well as lot of other things ), it sort of comes naturally to "make it work".

It seems you have your own challenges. Those pioneer daes are some pretty amazing speakers.
The graphic in this video is what is making the daes speaker placement locations challenging for me. Preferred daes placement for the optimal effect appears to be 3'-6' from the listener (mlp.)

More than 6'-10' appears to lesson the effect. Per dolbys video and graphic.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2579265-sponsored-dolby-atmos-enabled-speakers.html#post46755833
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Originally Posted by LNEWoLF View Post
The graphic in this video is what is making the daes speaker placement locations challenging for me. Preferred daes placement for the optimal effect appears to be 3'-6' from the listener (mlp.)

More than 6'-10' appears to lesson the effect. Per dolbys video and graphic.

***Sponsored*** Dolby Atmos-Enabled Speakers
Many thanks for that new link -- I'll add comments there too. I think you're misinterpreting that 3'-6'. What I saw was that with the daes speaker placed properly, the cone of "Atmos enablement" (my term) extended from the 3-6' to the 6-10' range with the defined 70* angle of reflection from the ceiling.

In my situation, my front mains are 12" from my MLP. The ELAC A4s are about 3 feet higher and back about 15". While they worked well set flat as designed, I captured better sound imaging by elevating the ELACs about 15* more to get the reflection point out in front of my mains. (I was lucky to hit a nice angle the first time, but I'll be trying other angles and will also try pivoting the A4s to aim toward my MLP as the front speakers are.) Now one other reviewer here on AVS crowed because he had assumed the need for additional angle to start. Then when he removed his prop, to set the speakers flat (the way I started), HIS results improved dramatically. But his was in a more standard flat ceiling room.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

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post #23 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 11:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the thoughts. Since I've moved around so much and had to adapt to a variety of listing rooms (as well as lot of other things ), it sort of comes naturally to "make it work".

It seems you have your own challenges. Those pioneer daes are some pretty amazing speakers.
Oops, sorry LNEWolf, I was chasing the wrong speakers when I responded. Seeing the right ones makes more sense.

I also considered the Pioneers. Good reviews, more reviews, and same designer as the ELAC A4s. I read that Andrew Jones moved from Pioneer to ELAC and put out this similar speaker. So why did I go with the ELAC? They are slightly more expensive (fact, not a reason), but my thinking was that if A. Jones had a chance to redo his speaker (from appearance, it seems the difference is only that they are shaped to fit the base speaker they were expected to sit on), why not improve it? Secondly, there are differences in materials that "appealed" to me. (Valid? Who knows?) Those are certainly minimal "reasons" to choose one over the other, but for $5 more each, I figured "go for it". Truthfully, I considered the positive reviews for the Pioneer as positives for the ELAC too.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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I just keep getting blown away with new levels of incredulity! I got my ELAC A4s today. As my rear presence are no longer balanced precariously where they don't belong, I have them turned off and am running at 7.2.2. I first listened with the YPAO 7.2.2 config I had established using the cheap Yamaha FP speakers and then I replaced those Yamahas with the ELACs. I'm literally shocked at the difference! I wanted "better". I got clarity. I got sounds I have never heard before in movies I have been testing with 7.2.2 and 7.2.4 for more than a week. I got imaging that wasn't there before. I got a total surround effect (with 7.2.2!) that blows my mind. I keep listening and it keeps getting better.

Ok, so how do I explain it. The ELACs appear to match my existing Mirage setup to near perfection (I say "near" because I can't believe it's really so perfect.) Nothing stands out. I don't hear speakers, I'm hearing sound all over (oh -- right -- that's what Atmos is supposed to be about...). In the burial scene from John Wick, I've been hearing the rain fall -- now I'm hearing the raindrops fall. The trickle off the umbrella is exactly that. In the early train hijack scene of "The Lone Ranger", the bandits are coming from out over THERE! The precision with which the actions can be heard is enthralling!

Ok, I quit. You can tell that not only has my Atmos setup improved dramatically, but I really think these ELAC A4s are fantastic. They are all that the best reviews say they are. Very high quality speakers for Atmos. Running in my vaulted ceiling room, they appear flawless. I started with them flat on the unit over my fronts and was delighted. After adding a little more angle to compensate for the sloped ceiling, I've been totally captivated.

And I still haven't run YPAO with the ELACs...
Don't short-change yourself. Run YPAO.

We love our ELAC A4's. 'Game of Thrones' with ATMOS (and the ELAC's) is a real treat vs. DTS Master HD or vs. without the ELAC's which sounds bland and dull, as we discovered immediately. Same experience with other recent ATMOS capable movies we've watched.

Just front presence spoken here, no rears, and even then ... the difference is amazing.

/ Yamaha RX-A3060 / LG 65EG9600 /Def Tech Mythos / B&W CCM685 / Oppo Darbee Edition / ELAC ATMOS / Velodyne /
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post #25 of 100 Old 09-16-2016, 02:20 PM
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Oops, sorry LNEWolf, I was chasing the wrong speakers when I responded. Seeing the right ones makes more sense.

I also considered the Pioneers. Good reviews, more reviews, and same designer as the ELAC A4s. I read that Andrew Jones moved from Pioneer to ELAC and put out this similar speaker. So why did I go with the ELAC? They are slightly more expensive (fact, not a reason), but my thinking was that if A. Jones had a chance to redo his speaker (from appearance, it seems the difference is only that they are shaped to fit the base speaker they were expected to sit on), why not improve it? Secondly, there are differences in materials that "appealed" to me. (Valid? Who knows?) Those are certainly minimal "reasons" to choose one over the other, but for $5 more each, I figured "go for it". Truthfully, I considered the positive reviews for the Pioneer as positives for the ELAC too.
Any of the ATMOS presence speakers that incorporate paper cones simply reveal that the company offering them are taking the cheap way out.

For me and my interest to "add to" my existing system, it came down to build quality, materials and cost.
That boiled it down to Atlantic Tech and ELAC. Then the choice became easy after reading the reviews.
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post #26 of 100 Old 09-17-2016, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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After some diversions, back to the main thread topic (warning -- long post). This was the agenda:
-- What's wrong with this HT room?
-- Why this HT room works so well.
-- My thoughts on working with a vaulted ceiling for "immersive" audio. (I'm always open to input.)
-- Some ideas about this room as a really great music listening room.

I list these topics together here because the last three are all part of accounting for the first. Listed below are the problems with my thoughts about each -- beginning with yet another key "fault". This again is the layout, a pic below shows the first three Problems. Room at widest is 18', length 28', highest point 16'.



Problem 1 -- the screen is too small
This is where I run into difficulties -- my wife doesn't agree. If I choose to keep the wall unit (which I do AND which I really have no say over), then there are limits. (Going the projector/screen route is not an option -- cost, room aesthetics and the added factor of wife detemine that.) The wall unit is expandable -- my wall space only minimally so. Between the two, I've already determined that I can replace my 55" tv with a 65". For a large screen enthusiast, that's still not much, but it's more than 18% larger, would work well for this installation and is right for this room. The major issue I will have to deal with is the subwoofer on the right (look just outside the RF tower). That will entail at least another sub-crawl.

While looking at that pic, notice that the new ELAC A4s can just be seen on the wall unit, outside the house gargoyles, above and just inside the front tower position. Remember that the ceiling reflected sound appears to come from about 11' up and IN FRONT of those towers -- keeps the "bubble". (The speaker placement diagram is repeated below for easy reference.)

Problem 2 -- the vaulted ceiling (at least for Atmos)
The vaulted ceiling is, in my opinion, actually a major plus. Keep in mind that my major use of this system is for music. My previous house also had vaulted ceilings and they showed me the benefits of a "music hall" environment which the sloped ceilings provide. Granted, I still have to deal with the ceiling for home theater (which came years after design), with Atmos enabled speakers like the A4s, I can orient them so that the reflected sound comes to the MLP properly, so the sloped ceiling is either irrelevant or a benefit. For the RP, I have to revert to a standard 8' ceiling solution in the dining room behind MLP. As I write, I'm waiting for the RSL C34Es to be delivered.

Problem 3 -- that ceiling has many odd angles within the ceiling itself
It's really hard to decide just how the ceiling angles and nooks affect the sound. It "looks" potentially odd from an audio perspective, but those varied surfaces seem to help absorb the sound and minimize echos and bouncing -- I don't get standing wave cancellation because there are few parallel hard surfaces. Not much else to say.



Problem 4 -- the more than 6000 cu ft size
The negative of this is the difficulty in filling that space both with sound and also with getting solid bass. That's where the six powered subs come in . But consider that a large open space also naturally allows sound to expand and be absorbed. In addition, the sloped ceiling helps minimize reflections and directs the sound out. Also, sound which goes up into the loft tends to be trapped there. And at the back right (behind the MLP) is also an open hallway that runs back into an entryway and a bath. Sound pushed back there just doesn't come back to the listening room. (I like to think of this as a folded horn. ) Because of the size of the space, speakers can be placed without crowding walls.

Now, did I plan all this when designing my house and this area. Yes and no. I wanted a vaulted ceiling. I knew this was my listening room. As I modified my house plans 25 years ago, I actually did consider how each aspect of the floor plan/walls would affect sound. Planning and luck, what can I say?


Problem 5 -- the hard surfaces all around (window wall, floors, etc.)
As a plus, standing waves between ceiling and hard floor are eliminated because of the vaulted ceiling. The windows are deeply recessed because the house has 6-inch walls. (We planned for a technically correct passive solar home to minimize energy costs after retirement. Hence the windows, the greater than normal insulation and even the tile floor which is a floating slab of 3 1/2 inch concrete.) On the floor we have added a small carpet, but frankly that was recent and the hard floor has never seemed t affect sound -- there are just no standing waves and cancellation. The right side wall (from MLP), is broken up with a staircase and also has other large wall units. Finally, we have hex-cell, insulating blinds that can be lowered over the windows. Again, I've never noticed a major difference in sound with or without the blinds lowered. Finally, most of our furniture is of the large over-stuffed style that also absorbs sound.

Problem 6 -- the odd angles from the offset side walls
This has been covered -- bascically reflection is minimized and this just isn't an issue.

Problem 7 -- the wide spread listening positions
Yes, this is a living room and my wife really does deserve to have her house look the way she wants. She has been more than flexible to allow all the speakers, subs and even room orientation to suit the home theater. So I end up with an ideal MLP and three other somewhat less than ideal seats. (The pic shows the MLP in the lower left, another recliner is to it's left and the sofa is seen on the right. I also can roll another dining room chair to the space beside the MLP. That is actually the second best theater seat. Refer back to Post #3 for pics that show the seating.) With YPAO, I use multi-position for 4 locations. The two outside positions certainly aren't ideal, but the listeners can still hear the full effect of Atmos -- the directed sound still comes from around the "bubble". I'd like to move the leftmost recliner to a more side-by-side with the MLP, but my wife still likes her seat right where it is. (And besides, a nice recliner next to the windows overlooking the deck, the yard and the forest? What's not to like? )


Problem 8 -- it's a living room, not a dedicated home theater
Again, I think I really have already discussed this one. What is, is.


Problem 9 -- no options for traditional sound treatments
Sometimes I think it might be nice to try out sound absorbing treatments, but see back one item. Also, the room honestly does not appear to need treatments. Years back, I had an audio consultant in to help decide what I could do at that point to improve my sound (for music). After spending about 3 hours with me and running the gamut of my liquor cabinet, my music and a few movies (long pre-bluray, let along Atmos), his only suggestion was to replace my main subs with two larger subs for about $4000. As I told him, at that point extra saving for retirement was much more important to me than pushing more bass. Today, with the bass management capabilities of the A3060 and six subwoofers, that suggestion is totally irrelevant. My subs reach 20Hz or less and I cannot use the maximum bass output from the A3060 -- it's just way too overpowering. Instead, I can tweak the various bass management options for best output without over-driving any.

So that's a pretty complete picture of my home theater. I still have some tweaking to do with the ELAC A4s and the RSL C34Es haven't even arrived yet. But I feel REALLY good about this room and have some thoughts for continued improvement. I hope some of you others may have additional ideas. (Which I will have to filter through my wife. )

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-17-2016 at 10:08 AM.
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post #27 of 100 Old 09-20-2016, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Over the weekend, I received the RSL C34Es and tested them sitting out open. As other reviews have said, these weren't designed to produce bass. RSL says that themselves indicating that bass is best managed with subwoofers. But the speakers do have a clear, clean sound. (Later verified when mounted properly in place.)

So after this first checkout, I started tapping the ceiling to identify and mark the joists with push pins. The next day I committed to mounting the RSLs as my Rear Presence speakers. After drilling 3/8" holes for wiring in the half wall over the MLP, I then drilled a 1 1/2" hole between the marked joists at the distance wanted from my MLP. After that, careful in-ceiling measurement of exactly how far those holes were located from each joist showed they were close to center. The RSLs come with a template to mark a pencil line on the ceiling for cutting. I re-checked the distance from the ceiling edge to be sure all was correct, then started cutting with a new drywall saw starting from the test hole and going around the marked speaker position. (I've done lots of drywall work as well as opened and repaired many openings, but never used more than a utility knife. THIS time I wanted exact circular holes -- no job for a utility knife -- and the saw is only $8 though there are more expensive ones if you just HAVE to spend money. ) This pic shows all the holes (for wiring and for assessing speaker placement) as well as the partial cut on the left RP opening. The push pins marking the joists are also shown.



This is just a closeup of that partial cut.



I had already measured out and cut equal (over long) lengths of 14 ga speaker wire, connected them to my temporary amp and run them around the room (will complete install and trim in the coming days). After finishing the speaker cutouts, I temporarily hung the wires and ran them into the holes to the speaker locations, letting them hang out down to the floor. Then, because the RSLs are not sealed, I stuffed a layer of 2" sound insulation (purchased at Lowe's or any "big box" building store) through the speaker openings and spread them evenly to prevent from sound echoing through the ceiling space. Cut the wires with several feet of excess (in case of whatever), connected the speakers, pushed the wire in, and mounted them in the ceiling. This shows the wires in place and the speakers mounted. To the right of the pic, the Left Presence C34E can be seen directed toward the MLP.



Here the final pic shows all the hanging wire and speakers with their covers.



Still remaining is the job of permanently fixing all the wiring in place, running them up the corner using a wiring channel, and cutting trim and making the wires over the MLP disappear. (My wife has been asking for a special trim piece on the edge of the dining room ceiling which will nicely hide the wires and entry holes. Now the two projects come together.)

After all this came running YPAO several times and adjusting the Front Presence ELACs to the best angle and toeing them in toward the MLP. Now YPAO shows the distance and angle correctly and levels have been set properly. (If you use ELAC A4s or any Dolby Atmos Enabled Speaker in a non-standard room with sloped or vaulted ceiling, the "face" angle of the DAES will have to be adjusted for the ceiling slope. I propped them up and measured the distance -- 2.25 inches -- between the surface they sit on and the back edge of the speaker base until I got the distance and angle right per YPAO.)

Today, I followed the guidance of PioManiac ( Finally in my New House...basement plans ) and saved unique Scenes for Atmos and DTS:X. Now to test those out with just hours and hours and days and nights of movie watching...
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Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS

Last edited by richlife; 10-17-2016 at 10:21 AM.
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post #28 of 100 Old 09-20-2016, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
That's what happens with windows 10. When you rotate it on a win10 computer, it looks proper. But when you export it, it is in its original position.
You have to other then a win10 image so you can save it and properly register. Perhaps what was used on win7 computers?
Or, export it to a thumb drive and find a win7 setup, rotate it and save it then upload it.
Whoever designed that feature in win10 is brainless.
I can pretty much agree with last statement, but I did find a procedure in Win10 to get those pictures the right way up every time. Odd, but it works.

Double click on your pic to open it in the Win10 Photos app. First use the Rotate symbol to turn it 90*, then click on Edit, then at the side of the Edit window, click the Rotate symbol 3 times to rotate the pic back to right side up. Then click Save. Then the pic can be uploaded to AVS Forum properly.

Weird, yes. Voodoo, yes. But it works reliably time after time. (And please don't ask how I figured out that dumb a-- procedure... )

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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post #29 of 100 Old 09-20-2016, 04:10 PM
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That looks good. Neat ceiling speakers.

I like how you did the (temporary) wiring. Should be easy to hide later.
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post #30 of 100 Old 09-20-2016, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by pilgrimpete View Post
That looks good. Neat ceiling speakers.

I like how you did the (temporary) wiring. Should be easy to hide later.
Thanks. I just hung the wiring out of the way for now. I will be pushing them over into the corner near the left surround -- almost out of sight even without the wiring channel. But for now, I need access to that corner to cut through the upper existing trim piece to hollow it out. Then it will go right into the new piece I'll make for the loft edging. I'll post pics here later.

Atmos/DTS:X HT in Vaulted Room -- LG OLED Settings Options
Yamaha RX-A3060: 7.2.4 or 7.2.2 + Zone2 (switchable); OPPO 203; LG OLED65B6P; Harmony 650 & Home Hub
Base: Mirage OM-6 (FLR), MC-si (C), OM-R2 (SLR), FRx-nine (BLR)
Presence: ELAC A4s (FP), RSL C34Es (RP); 2 aci Titan subs; RP amp: AudioSource AMP100VS
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