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post #91 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 02:03 PM
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Don't be so sure that the frequency response will be bad in the center of the room. My main seat is almost dead center, it's about a foot closer to the back wall than the front wall and the response is very good. Actually better than the back row.
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post #92 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 02:17 PM
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Don't be so sure that the frequency response will be bad in the center of the room. My main seat is almost dead center, it's about a foot closer to the back wall than the front wall and the response is very good. Actually better than the back row.
Because you eliminated the width mode by placing a subwoofer in each front corner of your room.
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post #93 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 02:37 PM
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Man those FTW21's make the 215's look small. That is going to be a lot of base.
I know. The 215 is a large, intimidating speaker and he somehow managed to make it look small. No mean feat. And he wants to leave those out of his theater and store them in a bedroom. Yeah, right. LOL!

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post #94 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I know it is suggested in the DIY Custom Printed Movie Poster Acoustic Panels thread to leave a gap between the insulation and wall as it does help affect more of the midrange with the gap. However, I'm not sure how well that would work with longer bass waves. Not thinking it would matter much but we'd have to measure to know for sure. So jlpowell84, sounds like you have some homework.
See recent posts about options I/we have. I will do some homework!

But in quick lets look at this. I am guesstimating but I am pretty sure pink fluffy has a gas/air flow resistivity of around 16,600 from memory. Owens Coring 703 is around 27,000. This makes OC703 so popular for it's effectiveness at the ultra common 2-4" thicknesses. Now even on gear slutz several brainiacs argue OC 703's numbers from 17,000 to 27,000.

REGARDLESS with the big space I am going to dedicate it's probably timed best served at a little homework here but not OCD trying to get the perfected absorption coefficient possible. I think a hybrid of higher and lower density insulations with at least one air gap it will be quite effective

I really would like to see @LTD02 chime in about this

Here is a comparison of pink fluffy vs OC703 at different thicknesses. Random Incidence just means the air, or in our case sound, enters from ALL directions and not PERFECTLY perpendicular ONLY. And obviously sound waves bounce and enter into any kind of absorption or diffusion at many of different angles. Absorption co-efficient is the insulations ability to absorb and we want over 0.5 to really count, I think lol. It's been a couple years since I read this stuff. Maybe down to 0.4 counts but higher the better


2" thick

4"thick

6" thick

8" thick

10" thick

12" thick

16" thick

20" thick

27" thick (this would be entire space if I sacrifice 4ft for false wall.
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post #95 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Man those FTW21's make the 215's look small. That is going to be a lot of base.
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I know. The 215 is a large, intimidating speaker and he somehow managed to make it look small. No mean feat. And he wants to leave those out of his theater and store them in a bedroom. Yeah, right. LOL!
It's funny my wife and mother both said the 215's were small lol. Only in my house The FTW-dubs are freaking huge, not sure what I was thinking.

And yes David not sure what I was thinking! I guess logically not blending them up front with the ported 215's and the nearfield SI's was appealing. I'm not smart enough to know how phase will end up, I just hope it's not bad Baby Steps Bob, baby steps...

Also it's a little intimidating because I am not sure how to tune all three subwoofer sections (215's, FTW's, SI's) together, time align, etc. Any ideas? Mini DSP solution only way?

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post #96 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 03:07 PM
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Baby Steps Bob, baby steps...

Also it's a little intimidating because I am not sure how to tune all three subwoofer sections (215's, FTW's, SI's) together, time align, etc. Any ideas? Mini DSP solution only way?
One at a time.

Measure the 215's as large.

Measure the FTW's open to at least 80-120hz.

Pick a point you would like to cross them at and start plugging in delays until your mains and main sub are working together nice.

Now plug in your nearfield.

Measure it alone and with the front subs on.

Adjust delays until you are happy.

Now that you are happy.... do what ever is next.
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post #97 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Editing my post! I knew the graphs looked off. Pink fluffy is 5000 on the gas air flow resistivity numbers! Hold tight and I will update!

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post #98 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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One at a time.
Freaking love Bill Murray in that movie

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post #99 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 03:11 PM
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Freaking love Bill Murray in that movie

loldafuq?

Don't you have some big speakers to move about?!
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post #100 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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loldafuq?

Don't you have some big speakers to move about?!
It's what I think about every time you tell me one step at a time

Baby steps now are designing my false wall frame, DIY screen, how to hang it, how to apply all the black velvet around it and the insulation setup behind the false wall Speakers are essentially in place already...

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post #101 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 03:45 PM
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Have you used any kind of room simulation like in REW? Maybe it doesn't apply since you are doing the baffle wall but when I entered your room dimension and the seating distance I saw in one of your posts it doesn't look the best(big null around 40hz). It looked quite a bit better being closer with your seating. But I have no idea how accurate that is when using a baffle wall and I could have entered something wrong. Just thought I would mention it.

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Have you used any kind of room simulation like in REW? Maybe it doesn't apply since you are doing the baffle wall but when I entered your room dimension and the seating distance I saw in one of your posts it doesn't look the best(big null around 40hz). It looked quite a bit better being closer with your seating. But I have no idea how accurate that is when using a baffle wall and I could have entered something wrong. Just thought I would mention it.
Yea I toyed around a bit, not totally sure how to use that thing. But seemed with LCR (215's) and a sub (FTW's) on either side of the center 3.5ft from front wall and seating moved back to 2ft away from back wall it looked okay. Baby steps...
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post #103 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 04:36 PM
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Yea I toyed around a bit, not totally sure how to use that thing. But seemed with LCR (215's) and a sub (FTW's) on either side of the center 3.5ft from front wall and seating moved back to 2ft away from back wall it looked okay. Baby steps...
I know you are very thorough, I figured I probably entered something wrong and I did. I didn't take into account the baffle wall and that would move your seating distance back. Doing that it looks much better

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post #104 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 05:05 PM
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Also it's a little intimidating because I am not sure how to tune all three subwoofer sections (215's, FTW's, SI's) together, time align, etc. Any ideas? Mini DSP solution only way?
You might want to check out the outstanding Multi Subwoofer Optimizer software developed by @andyc56 .
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post #105 of 239 Old 07-11-2017, 08:23 PM
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Because you eliminated the width mode by placing a subwoofer in each front corner of your room.

You know I don't know what I'm doing!

Case in point...

I thought that Owens Corning 703 is the same as pink fluffy.... all I know is I used the stuff with the pink panther on it.
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post #106 of 239 Old 07-12-2017, 12:13 AM - Thread Starter
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You know I don't know what I'm doing!

Case in point...

I thought that Owens Corning 703 is the same as pink fluffy.... all I know is I used the stuff with the pink panther on it.
Love it!

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post #107 of 239 Old 07-12-2017, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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I just got the shipping notification for my seating...Looks like the kid, God help him, sent me the wrong seats lol. He made 5-6 mistakes and we had 3-4 phone calls and I made numerous corrections on addresses, etc.

I ordered these: BUT WITHOUT THE STORAGE CONSOLES
https://4seating.com/coaster-home-th...rus-600001.htm

I was just given shipping notification for these:
https://4seating.com/coaster-home-th...rus-600001.htm

So it will be a lotto to see which chairs show up and can be a blessing in disguise. Because I was worried the Cyrus model might be too hard of seating and the Pavillion has numerous more reviews available and the plush comfort is one of the high praises of it. Also could be a bonus because I was on the fence about a curved arrangement as I like curved for the outside seats. Also could be a plus because the overall width of the three units is 11-12" shorter bringing the side seats in a tad and more distance from surround speakers. I did like the Cyrus and individual chairs because of it being just three recliners set next to each other that appears to be a couch. I felt this offered a more 'individual space' not sharing armrests. BUT the CURVED seating has wedge style armrests that may end up being just fine and enough space for two elbows

This biggest thing will be if the Pavillion shows up in actual top grain leather and not bonded leather. Anyone know how to tell for sure on that? Some on Amazon reviews said they got bonded and not top grain.

I do like the look of the Cyrus a good step above but the plushness, adjustable headrest, curved and side seats getting better it may actually be a better fit. I'm sure I could grumble and get something for free or cheap if I really wanted. Or if I hated them get the originals.

But the Cyrus chairs might actually show up because it's 1179 for three and thats what I was charged. The Pavillion set of curved three is priced at 1399...

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post #108 of 239 Old 07-12-2017, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Got the design for my false wall, screen frame, and black 'masking' panels around frame all set! Also planning on some window inserts, weatherstripped behind false wall. Once that is flushed up with the original wall and additional 4-6" of insulation followed by a double 5/8 drywall with green glue in between for some attempt at sound attenuation out that window and side of room towards ONLY neighbors. And stuffing the fireplace as well. Great plans, a start that I can begin to by materials and construct!

I went ahead and reached out for pro acoustical advice to see if there is a cost effective hybrid plan I might land. All treatment will/needs to be DIY but after a advising phone call this morning and hearing a bit more about Erksine and other pro style plans behind false walls for treating bass I may not need the mass and space I was throwing around for a false wall.

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post #109 of 239 Old 07-12-2017, 02:50 PM
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Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers is north of San Fran so you might want to reach out to him if you're considering pro help.

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post #110 of 239 Old 07-13-2017, 10:28 AM
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Got the design for my false wall, screen frame, and black 'masking' panels around frame all set! Also planning on some window inserts, weatherstripped behind false wall. Once that is flushed up with the original wall and additional 4-6" of insulation followed by a double 5/8 drywall with green glue in between for some attempt at sound attenuation out that window and side of room towards ONLY neighbors. And stuffing the fireplace as well. Great plans, a start that I can begin to by materials and construct!

I went ahead and reached out for pro acoustical advice to see if there is a cost effective hybrid plan I might land. All treatment will/needs to be DIY but after a advising phone call this morning and hearing a bit more about Erksine and other pro style plans behind false walls for treating bass I may not need the mass and space I was throwing around for a false wall.
Did you talk to http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/ at all? If not call and talk to Ted. I think the wall of double dry wall and green glue in front of the window will let sound flank around it and I also believe it will be the triple leaf effect?

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...t-sound-leaks/

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...e-leaf-effect/

Also, they sell green glue and all the sound proofing materials you need and their prices were as low as anyone I could find online but they don't list them on their site. And they answered all my question on sound proofing free of charge. They use to post on the sites a lot but I haven't seen them post in a while.

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post #111 of 239 Old 07-13-2017, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Nyal at Acoustic Frontiers is north of San Fran so you might want to reach out to him if you're considering pro help.
Wow, he is only couple hundred miles then!

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Did you talk to http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/ at all? If not call and talk to Ted. I think the wall of double dry wall and green glue in front of the window will let sound flank around it and I also believe it will be the triple leaf effect?

http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...t-sound-leaks/ http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/...e-leaf-effect/

Also, they sell green glue and all the sound proofing materials you need and their prices were as low as anyone I could find online but they don't list them on their site. And they answered all my question on sound proofing free of charge. They use to post on the sites a lot but I haven't seen them post in a while.
Great info! Sat morning will be a call with a pro and I expect that part, treating behind the baffle wall to get settled so I can let some dust fly! But I will call Ted in preparation. thanks for this info! I knew air gaps were more effective but forgot about the resonating frequency. Good news is with a single row I can sacrifice up to 1-1.5 ft for an air gap if it was that necessary. As long as behind the baffle wall treating turns into a linacoustic/poly membrane type trap...
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I'd also give gerry and the boys over at questai.com a holler. They can do full scale acoustic work or simply provide you with the stuff needed to do it. They are trying to get more into the DIY world so they have some excellent options out there. Some of their panel options are extremely advanced.
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post #113 of 239 Old 07-13-2017, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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I'd also give gerry and the boys over at questai.com a holler. They can do full scale acoustic work or simply provide you with the stuff needed to do it. They are trying to get more into the DIY world so they have some excellent options out there. Some of their panel options are extremely advanced.
Yes I have a call scheduled for Sat with Shawn and I did mention I needed to be DIY on ALL treatments for keeping cost down. I know Ive read a bit on acoustics but it seems like one of those deep holes the more you learn the more you realize how little you know or can comprehend. Schooling really is necessary to understand things on a scientific level. It would be interesting to know the numerical value of what percent performance strictly avid DIY-ers in treating rooms reach? 50%, 70% performance compared to a Quest designed and treated room? Then what level of advanced treatments do you buy? I was reading a thread other day from the 'Rich' theater people talking about 100k plus treatment designs, RPG panels and more. I know it can get advanced but one guy listened to a theater with a 500k treatment plan, panels and installation! I mean really? 500K!??? Money is all relative right?

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Yes I have a call scheduled for Sat with Shawn and I did mention I needed to be DIY on ALL treatments for keeping cost down. I know Ive read a bit on acoustics but it seems like one of those deep holes the more you learn the more you realize how little you know or can comprehend. Schooling really is necessary to understand things on a scientific level. It would be interesting to know the numerical value of what percent performance strictly avid DIY-ers in treating rooms reach? 50%, 70% performance compared to a Quest designed and treated room? Then what level of advanced treatments do you buy? I was reading a thread other day from the 'Rich' theater people talking about 100k plus treatment designs, RPG panels and more. I know it can get advanced but one guy listened to a theater with a 500k treatment plan, panels and installation! I mean really? 500K!??? Money is all relative right?
The vast majority of enthusiasts even around here, including me make the same mistake: They overdamp the room. I just stuck a bunch of 2" panels all over my room to the point that it is deader than a door nail, and I've seen a ton of other guys who have done the same thing or even more egregiously than I did. I have since learned the error of my ways and am going to be getting some good Qfractor plus panels for the ipsilateral points, and a diffraction panel for the center of my rear wall measuring 4x4, and some combo panels for the contralateral points.
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post #115 of 239 Old 07-13-2017, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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The vast majority of enthusiasts even around here, including me make the same mistake: They overdamp the room. I just stuck a bunch of 2" panels all over my room to the point that it is deader than a door nail, and I've seen a ton of other guys who have done the same thing or even more egregiously than I did. I have since learned the error of my ways and am going to be getting some good Qfractor plus panels for the ipsilateral points, and a diffraction panel for the center of my rear wall measuring 4x4, and some combo panels for the contralateral points.
Very nice! Yea over deadening certainly sounds much better than a terrible reflective raw room by a long shot. But even minimal research can help with DIY diffusion to increase the RT60 to a better experience and increase the spaciousness bubble (walls disappearing out further). It's all proven scientific psychoacoustics these days...Where's MFusick when you need him

My approach is some minimal investment in advising speaker, subwoofer, and seating location as well as the treatment plan from bass trapping to absorption to diffusion and combo panels. I have a general grasp on how things work but actual placement of diffusion without guessing is where I get a little intimidated.

It would be a fun comparison to do the classic over deadening in a well setup (speaker/seating locations and decent gear) room for half day, then place all the professional advised absorption and diffusion to show the group the difference.

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post #116 of 239 Old 07-14-2017, 10:13 AM
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the basic rule of thumb is to put diffusion where you don't want reflections.

the balance of diffusion and absoption is a bit of personal matter.

folks generally prefer less absorption with music and a little more for theater. toole seems to be the one guy that disagrees here. he notes that increased reflections *increase* intelligibility. i can't figure how that is possible.

here is a theater (that i just randomly grabbed off the interwebz) with a balance of diffusion and absorption. note how much of the space is *not* covered by absorption. tough to say what the subwoofer scenario is in that room or how the bass measures, but for what can be seen, it probably sounds quite nice (except for the seat right in front of the door :-)).


with your speakers, the diffuser closest to the front may not be necessary.





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post #117 of 239 Old 07-14-2017, 10:26 AM
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One thing to note in that picture is that they flipped the orientation of diffusion and absorption in the front half of the room. Good thinking.



Acoustical treatment is like speakers and video, HIGHLY dependent on personal tastes.

If you can afford to do so (money&time) you should do your own experiments with treatment(s) that you can move around at will and find out what YOU really like. Buy four large-ish freestanding absorbers and the same for diffusion. Listen to music or test signals and move them around. Sit in the MLP and see how the sound changes.
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post #118 of 239 Old 07-14-2017, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
One thing to note in that picture is that they flipped the orientation of diffusion and absorption in the front half of the room. Good thinking.



Acoustical treatment is like speakers and video, HIGHLY dependent on personal tastes.

If you can afford to do so (money&time) you should do your own experiments with treatment(s) that you can move around at will and find out what YOU really like. Buy four large-ish freestanding absorbers and the same for diffusion. Listen to music or test signals and move them around. Sit in the MLP and see how the sound changes.
I agree, I don't know where the call tomm morning will lead as in charges, etc. But if it's kinda a rando side advising for not much I think it's worth it for a nice base and foundation to work from.

Generally I was thinking the front behind AT wall with absorption of some sort or the linacoustic/poly membrane type thing with the back area of room around seating having more diffusion to increase spaciousness. But I am very curious what he will have to say about my room, speaker, sub and seating locations. One thing is the fireplace and bricks up the wall act as a natural diffusion as we obviously know but it may not be correct location. Easy enough to put absorption there if needed.

After tomm I am going to buy materials and begin the false wall area construction. Baby steps! No procrastination! Get er done!

Also I just couldn't deal with the Pavillion seating they mis shipped, don't like the looks. So they caught it before it left Orange County and have the correct Cyrus style coming. I like the look of them and the option that they are actually individual chairs. So I still can put a little 2-3" gap at the back of the armrests so the side chairs have a slight angle inwards creating a slight curved row. Also they have future options for individual seats elsewhere in house if I get nicer seating down the road...393 per chair shipped wasn't bad IMO for hardwood frames, Top grain leather...
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post #119 of 239 Old 07-14-2017, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Testing out screen widths last night...This is 10ft 6inches and damn it is big!!! It is rando king sized sheets and I did run a quick XT32 calibration for the LCR speakers behind and the attenuation of the sheets. I must say we got like 1.5hrs into the movie and I said to my wife, "I havn't thought about the speakers once! It was pretty cool to have a wall of sound coming from the large image

One thing I thought about...eating up extra room for my false wall reduces image size, width yes? The PJ is sitting just 2.5-3ft from back wall on a shelf for testing. I can put the Chief mount ALL THE WAY back towards back wall. But how do you calculate throw distance needed vs actual image size? It's dictated by actual location of the 40ES correct? Sorry, I'm dumb when it comes to video side


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post #120 of 239 Old 07-14-2017, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post
Testing out screen widths last night...This is 10ft 6inches and damn it is big!!! It is rando king sized sheets and I did run a quick XT32 calibration for the LCR speakers behind and the attenuation of the sheets. I must say we got like 1.5hrs into the movie and I said to my wife, "I havn't thought about the speakers once! It was pretty cool to have a wall of sound coming from the large image

One thing I thought about...eating up extra room for my false wall reduces image size, width yes? The PJ is sitting just 2.5-3ft from back wall on a shelf for testing. I can put the Chief mount ALL THE WAY back towards back wall. But how do you calculate throw distance needed vs actual image size? It's dictated by actual location of the 40ES correct? Sorry, I'm dumb when it comes to video side


Projector Central should get you in the ball park. Put in where you want the projector and see if it will work. I think it should work at the back of the room. That is a big screen but I am thinking of going bigger like 12.5' wide. from 8.75'.
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