Why people think Blu-Ray looks fake - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 06:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know what forum to post this in, so I guess BRD software wins.

Today at lunch I overheard a couple of guys talking about the Blu-Ray demo at Best Buy.

One guy said, "Yeah, those Blu-Rays have so much detail that they look fake!"

The other guy said, "Yep, that's exactly right. They do look fake!"

THANK YOU VERY MUCH SONY AND SAMSUNG for setting up all those Blu-Ray displays showing your BRD players on those crappy 120hz motion-flow monitors.

It's the motion-flow that looks fake, not the Blu-Ray. But there's no way for the average Joe to discern one issue from the other.

So we have a bunch of people out there who now think that Blu-Ray looks "fake". Good Lord.

There are days when I want to revert the industry to 19-inch B&W tube TVs with coax-only input because that's just about all that people deserve. Oh, and let's take movies back to the pre Citizen Kane era while we're at it.
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post #2 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:07 PM
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I bet I have seen at 20 people at Frys and Best Buy going on and on about how "clear" it looks when set up on those TV sets. Unfortunately I am sure many people are out there watching HDM that way.
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post #3 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:08 PM
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Correction, BD on a 120MHz HDTV looks fake, and yes, I am one who agrees with that opinion. BD in general looks very very nice and I love it, but I have watched BD on 120MHz HDTV's and I concur 100%, it looks like rubbish on them and much too fake for me too enjoy. I don't think I could ever buy a 120MHz HDTV, I hate how it makes BDs and HD-DVD look. As to the guys, well most consumers know next to nothing about BD or 120 MHz, so what they see at BB is what they assume BD looks like. Don't blame them, blame BB, Sony, and Samsung for not putting up disclaimers and properly informing these guys of what is going on.
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post #4 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:15 PM
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Please note that we are talking about 120Hz displays here not about Blu-ray per se.

I am of two minds about the 120hz monitors. They certainly look interesting but there may be more improvements needed.

It is possible that it is an "uncanny hollow" situation where it actually looks better but we are put off by it because we aren't used to it.
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post #5 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:15 PM
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120Mhz? cool.

"Why am I Mr. Pink?"
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post #6 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:23 PM
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120Mhz frame doubling (cinctupling?) is good.

120Mhz frame interpolation is bad, bad, bad. (Smoothflow, Cinemotion, Motionflow, Vomitflow)
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post #7 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:25 PM
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I have the Sony 46XBR4, which is a 120hz display.
HD-DVD's and BD's do NOT look fake here. If the display is set up properly, picture quality is excellent with all DVD sources, provided the disc is good, of course.
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post #8 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:28 PM
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They look great at my local BB. Havne't seen the "fake" look those guys speak of.
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post #9 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:33 PM
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will not agree with the "fake" the pq is amazing, but yes it looks very odd. the movies i have seen the new harry potter, and the new pirates. the pq is unreal very sharp, but the movements look like some odd claymation. hard to explain i guess. but it does make me think that they need some time with these tv's in regards to blu/hd just my 2 cents.
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post #10 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:37 PM
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Never trust the overcooked shop mode settings. Watch and compare movies inside a dark room on a reasonably calibrated setup. I wouldn't call the difference between recent SD DVDs and HDM night-and-day but claiming that there is no difference is BS.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #11 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm pretty sure I was clear on a few points that seem to have been misunderstood in my OP, so I'll reiterate them here:

1) Yes, 120hz motionflow looks fake. I agree.

2) The problem is neither Blu-Ray nor 120hz, but rather the motion-flow frame interpolation crap on specific 120hz displays.

3) There's enough blame to go around.

4) Blu-Ray does not look fake. Blu-Ray is not the problem.

5) 9 out of 10 proctologists agree that motionflow and colon-blow are both part of a heart-healthy diet.
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post #12 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 08:09 PM
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I wholeheartedly agree with #5.

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post #13 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 08:12 PM
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It doesn't look "fake" so much as it looks like HD video.

The most obvious place you can see this is on the scene from Pirates on the Sony BD demo disc. When shown on their 40" 120 Hz LCD it looks too "real" and as such looks like video taken for a "making of" featurette rather than a scene from the film itself.
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post #14 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 08:29 PM
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I have a Sony KDS-60A3000, which had motionflow. A couple points:

(1) People shouldn't be averse to buying a motionflow TV if it fits their pricepoint and other requirements. if you decide you don't like it, it is entirely optional. At this point the extra cost is a factor but I'm sure that will gradually change...

(2) As for me, I find the middle setting to provide excellent results in smoothing out the picture just enough to look less "framey". The high setting, on the other hand, looks incredibly "fake" with most live action material. I suggest trying it at home with a wide variety of sources and non-demo mode settings... I think most would be quite pleased (and I mean most home theater enthusiasts, not most Wal-Mart shoppers).
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post #15 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 08:31 PM
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Well, now my curiosity is up and I want to see what one of these 120hz displays looks like.

What is the advantage of 120hz supposed to be if it based on interpolation?
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post #16 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 08:56 PM
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To the OP -> Did the store run any split screen material to demo 120Hz ? Most of the stores in Japan do this.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #17 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Well, now my curiosity is up and I want to see what one of these 120hz displays looks like.

What is the advantage of 120hz supposed to be if it based on interpolation?

I dont know why it's appealing. I went to check out that freakin Samsung that polutes the boards with the "POTC BB OMG" posts.

And after looking at it i figured out what it does. It makes everything look like daytime television. The framerate is tweaked so much that it makes the contrast look different too(even the wacky floor models). Nothing looks like film with that. It also smoothes out the image so much that it feels like there's a loss of detail.

Plus it makes every single person on screen look like they are much less inteligent than they really are. I don't know why it made me feel that way. Maybe it was that their movement. If you like film for being film, you will almost be instantly turned off from the panel if you watch a movie on it.

If anything BDs normally look too real. I finally watched The Rock last week and it was kind of gross. I can almost tell where every little hair was coming out of Sean Connery's beard. And then there's Depps nose in POTC, eww. OMG I just saw an HD trailer for No Country, it looks like I could actually fall through my panel onto the desert ground. And yes I did just wet myself, woah I cant wait for that. 120hz would totally ruin it.

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

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Most Major studios>Small Studios>dogs>cats>Warner(the guys that do new movies)
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post #18 of 27 Old 03-03-2008, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Well, now my curiosity is up and I want to see what one of these 120hz displays looks like.

What is the advantage of 120hz supposed to be if it based on interpolation?

I have the Sony 60 in. A3000. It seems those saying they don't like 120hz are not owners of them. I am. They are incorrectly stating how it works, because the settings are wrong. It is amazing. There is no fake look if settings are done properly. The fake look comes when they are incorrectly set, not because of the 120hz itself.

I use mine for HD hockey, HD and very little SD programming, gaming, BD playback, HTPC and more and there are NONE of the issues being claimed above.

This type of set I have takes days of tweaking all the settings and watching all different sources to get it right. Trying to view them in store over a short period of time and having little or no knowledge of the set itself and how the settings should be is just plain wrong when making blanket statements that 120hz is the issue. If anyone buys any set based on how it looks in store they are being mislead. There are too many variables in the set itself, the stores environment and the source material to accurately gauge the picture quality.

People in this thread are giving incorrect info based on erroneous settings of the sets. In fact the whole thread topic is bogus, because people are not accurately viewing BD's on these sets.
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post #19 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Well, now my curiosity is up and I want to see what one of these 120hz displays looks like.

What is the advantage of 120hz supposed to be if it based on interpolation?

120Hz isn't based on interpolation, they are actually separate technologies. I have a 120Hz LCD and there is nothing fake about it. 120Hz is simply twice as much refresh as typical 60Hz displays. And when displaying 24fps material it's 5x.

Interpolation (one of the modes) when used in conjunction with 120Hz is when people get the HD Video effect. Really this issue is so overblown at this point. The legend of the "fake 120Hz" look grows and grows each day with half the people having no idea what they're talking about and having seen it in passing at a store.

Brandon
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post #20 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 12:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I have the Sony 60 in. A3000. It seems those saying they don't like 120hz are not owners of them. I am. They are incorrectly stating how it works, because the settings are wrong. It is amazing. There is no fake look if settings are done properly. The fake look comes when they are incorrectly set, not because of the 120hz itself.

I use mine for HD hockey, gaming, BD playback, HTPC and more and there are NONE of the issues being claimed above.

People in this thread are giving incorrect info based on erroneous settings of the sets. In fact the whole thread topic is bogus, because people are not accurately viewing BD's on these sets.

+15,382,593,293.89

It's kinda funny how all of a sudden in-store viewing is a credible and thorough way to judge a display technology even though before 120Hz came out it was denounced for years.

Brandon
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post #21 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 12:16 AM
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^^ I see dollar signs. So many people who know I am into this for a hobby keep saying I should help people configure properly for a living. It does seem if the stores can't get it right or help people set the displays up properly there is an opportunity. This new tech is confusing even for us who are into it, but so many who are clueless want a great setup to work properly and they might be interested.

And if we want to have a discussion on BD looking fake we need a Pam Anderson video or the like to be accurate.
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post #22 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

I dont know why it's appealing. I went to check out that freakin Samsung that polutes the boards with the "POTC BB OMG" posts.

And after looking at it i figured out what it does. It makes everything look like daytime television. The framerate is tweaked so much that it makes the contrast look different too(even the wacky floor models). Nothing looks like film with that. It also smoothes out the image so much that it feels like there's a loss of detail.

Plus it makes every single person on screen look like they are much less inteligent than they really are. I don't know why it made me feel that way. Maybe it was that their movement. If you like film for being film, you will almost be instantly turned off from the panel if you watch a movie on it.

If anything BDs normally look too real. I finally watched The Rock last week and it was kind of gross. I can almost tell where every little hair was coming out of Sean Connery's beard. And then there's Depps nose in POTC, eww. OMG I just saw an HD trailer for No Country, it looks like I could actually fall through my panel onto the desert ground. And yes I did just wet myself, woah I cant wait for that. 120hz would totally ruin it.

120 Hz is NOT the problem....

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #23 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

Interpolation (one of the modes) when used in conjunction with 120Hz is when people get the HD Video effect. Really this issue is so overblown at this point. The legend of the "fake 120Hz" look grows and grows each day with half the people having no idea what they're talking about and having seen it in passing at a store.

I know exactly what I'm talking about - I did my undergrad project on automatic motion interpolation. I know one of the algorithms in excruciating detail, I know what kind of source imagery triggers errors, I know what kinds of artifacts are caused by those errors, and I know how to spot them because I was not only viewing interpolated images, I was studying them, years before any television offered it!

But I agree that there are armchair-experts spreading FUD about motion interpolation, except its on both sides of the argument, which shouldn't surprise anyone because of the amount of FUD on this forum about upscaling... I know scaling well (I worked on an electronic lens distortion correction project for a military application, which used the same underlying scaling algorithm as used in high-end commercial video scalers). Scaling, when done right, does not produce any "jaggies" or other artifacts with cute names. Scaling, when done right, is also more computationally expensive than decoding 1080p video (and I consider good upscaling to be a more impressive feat than decoding video). Only a handful of scalers (like the REALTA HQV) do scaling justice, and yet this place is flooded with armchair-experts who declare that upscaling sucks based on the cheap-ass DVD player in their home!
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post #24 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 05:56 AM
 
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I personally LOVE the way films look on them. I can't wait to see IRobot running on one
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post #25 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

It doesn't look "fake" so much as it looks like HD video.

The most obvious place you can see this is on the scene from Pirates on the Sony BD demo disc. When shown on their 40" 120 Hz LCD it looks too "real" and as such looks like video taken for a "making of" featurette rather than a scene from the film itself.

yeah i saw it on transformers and it was weird... that and the calibration was way off

you know if it makes film based content look like video... what would it do to video based content? make it look real?
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post #26 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 06:39 AM
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People think it looks fake because it is . In best buy they are showing off the POTC DMC end scene where the monsters arms are up in the sky destroying the boat. That is all CGI and all fake.

They also show alot of spiderman 3 cgi fight scenes . This too is fake.

The higher definition just allows people to see it more.


Here is a good example. At home when watching the dvd from the first harry potter i would get upset with how bad and fake the troll looked but everyone in my family would laugh and say it looks great. Now watching it in hd dvd they can all see what i've been seeing.

On the flip side my mother can't believe how amazing Robin hood and casablanca look and now wants to buy as many of the older films as possible
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post #27 of 27 Old 03-04-2008, 06:46 AM
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There are more than a few threads on 120hz and best buy displays and debating whether it looks good or not etc.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=120hz

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=120hz

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=120hz

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=120hz

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=120hz

Plus, others....

Let's carry on the debate in one of the existing threads

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