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post #1561 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Ted W View Post

No, he doesn't. If the sync-ing of the dialogue scares him off of Seven Samurai, one of the few movies nearly everyone agrees is among the greatest ever made -- or the fact that maybe there's some scratches, or a hair shows up for eight seconds in reel three, or some other technical imperfections -- then that's his loss. Il Gattopardo is dubbed, too, but it doesn't affect Lancaster's performance. There are Beatles tracks where the singing is out of tune. Does it matter? The original release of Kind of Blue has side two in the wrong key due to a technical error with the tape machine. Either he wants to see the movie or he doesn't.

While the listing of technical imperfections you have provided is quite interesting and has provided me with wonderful learning opportunities, I would liken my concern more-so to (e.g.) paying for a movie showing at my local cinema where a known high-pitched squealing sound (much akin to the noise most hateful forum-lurkers would produce given the opportunity) accompanied the viewing.

Your assertion that I have no right to be concerned about an important purchase (not the actual viewing of the production, as detailed above, as there exist several mediums across which this film is available) is laughable, though I do applaud your effort.
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post #1562 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 09:47 AM
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No, he doesn't. If the sync-ing of the dialogue scares him off of Seven Samurai, one of the few movies nearly everyone agrees is among the greatest ever made -- or the fact that maybe there's some scratches, or a hair shows up for eight seconds in reel three, or some other technical imperfections -- then that's his loss. Il Gattopardo is dubbed, too, but it doesn't affect Lancaster's performance.

Flaws in the print is one thing. Something that compromises an actor's performance is another.

Italy has produced some of the greatest films ever made, but few people would not wish that what the actors were speaking when they were photographed was what we heard in the final film. Post-synching- and I don't mean just dubbing into another language- requires that the actor (or frequently whoever is doing the voice for the actor on screen) be required to match his performance to the movement of the lips. This compromises the performance; the actor is worried about something independent of what he is saying. Plus you lose the ambience of the space in which you were filming. Voices are usually uncomfortablly front and center.

You can get around this; you have to if you want to appreciate Fellini, who would cast people whose faces he liked and then fix the performance later. But it's extremely distracting and jma108 has every right to ask about it.

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post #1563 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

No, he doesn't. If the sync-ing of the dialogue scares him off of Seven Samurai, one of the few movies nearly everyone agrees is among the greatest ever made -- or the fact that maybe there's some scratches, or a hair shows up for eight seconds in reel three, or some other technical imperfections -- then that's his loss. Il Gattopardo is dubbed, too, but it doesn't affect Lancaster's performance.

Flaws in the print is one thing. Something that compromises an actor's performance is another.

Italy has produced some of the greatest films ever made, but few people would not wish that what the actors were speaking when they were photographed was what we heard in the final film. Post-synching- and I don't mean just dubbing into another language- requires that the actor (or frequently whoever is doing the voice for the actor on screen) be required to match his performance to the movement of the lips. This compromises the performance; the actor is worried about something independent of what he is saying. Plus you lose the ambience of the space in which you were filming. Voices are usually uncomfortablly front and center.

You can get around this; you have to if you want to appreciate Fellini, who would cast people whose faces he liked and then fix the performance later. But it's extremely distracting and jma108 has every right to ask about it.

Somehow, in all my years of reading about and discussing movies, I have not found anyone who would suggest Mifune's performance in Seven Samurai is compromised. Because of dubbing or any other thing. Amazing, that.

He can ask about it, but, like I said, either he wants to see the movie or not. Either he will find the movie's age and means of production distracting or not. That's up to him. But to be interested in possibly seeing this movie -- Seven Samurai, no less, we're not talking about some average movie -- and then, what, to consider not seeing it because of a technical imperfection or methodology of production or whatever? Okay, sure. His loss. (Hey, it's in black-and-white, too! That's how they did it back then!)
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post #1564 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

Gore Vidal observed many years ago that the Italians hate synched sound and often did it only because of foreign actors who insisted their scenes have it. I think I have seen on-set sound also in some of the great neorealist films, but Fellini's films always were post-synched.

Post-synching was essential with Fellini. He had a habit of not writing the dialogue until after the footage was shot and he got to the editing room. I recall Mastroianni telling stories of reciting his grocery list on camera.

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post #1565 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 10:29 AM
 
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Post-synching was essential with Fellini. He had a habit of not writing the dialogue until after the footage was shot and he got to the editing room. I recall Mastroianni telling stories of reciting his grocery list on camera.

Yeah, Fellini films have some of the worst lip-to-speech matching ever. It's not even close in a lot of cases. Very strange to watch, but you just kind of get used to it. And I don't speak Italian, so I'm looking at the subtitles mostly anyway, so I'm not paying that much attention to the lips. Intriguing though!
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post #1566 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

Yeah, Fellini films have some of the worst lip-to-speech matching ever. It's not even close in a lot of cases. Very strange to watch, but you just kind of get used to it. And I don't speak Italian, so I'm looking at the subtitles mostly anyway, so I'm not paying that much attention to the lips. Intriguing though!

Fellini also liked to yell direction at his actors while the cameras rolled. Realistic sound design was not something that interested him in the slightest.

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post #1567 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 01:21 PM
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Okay, regarding Seven Samurai. I pulled my old copy out and watched ten minutes or so. Distant shots may well have had their sound added later, but the interiors and closeups are synched, or post-synched so well you would never know the difference. You can buy with confidence.

And concerning Ted W's post:

Somehow, in all my years of reading about and discussing movies, I have not found anyone who would suggest Mifune's performance in Seven Samurai is compromised. Because of dubbing or any other thing. Amazing, that.

He can ask about it, but, like I said, either he wants to see the movie or not. Either he will find the movie's age and means of production distracting or not. That's up to him. But to be interested in possibly seeing this movie -- Seven Samurai, no less, we're not talking about some average movie -- and then, what, to consider not seeing it because of a technical imperfection or methodology of production or whatever? Okay, sure. His loss. (Hey, it's in black-and-white, too! That's how they did it back then!)


Never said his performance was compromised. And I would agree with paragraph two. But there is a difference in your above post and

Dude, just watch the movie.

The earlier post sounds unnecessarily curt to me.

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post #1568 of 2499 Old 10-22-2010, 01:27 PM
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Fellini also liked to yell direction at his actors while the cameras rolled. Realistic sound design was not something that interested him in the slightest.

I was surprised when the "making of" documentary of Russian Ark revealed that all the sound was added later (the film was accomplished digitally in a single, 90 minute take, for those who don't know), though obviously there was really no way to do otherwise. The director was barking instructions all through the film.

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post #1569 of 2499 Old 11-01-2010, 10:14 AM
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Picked up "House" for $20 at B&N today. Just one of those movies that I enjoyed but couldn't justify purchasing for $30+. At 50% off I was tempted to pick up a few others but I was able to use some self-control

But hey, "Antichrist" will be $20 next week too! Too bad the sale won't make it up to "Videodrome."
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post #1570 of 2499 Old 11-01-2010, 06:58 PM
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No self control for me, I bought ten discs. Tha tbrings my collection of Criterion Blu's up to 58.
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post #1571 of 2499 Old 11-01-2010, 07:39 PM
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whew...you must have nearly every one then?


Criterion releases usually fall into three categories for me:

- A movie that I've always loved and would buy regardless
- A movie that I've never seen/heard of that I end up enjoying and purchase
- A movie that I've never seen/heard of that I would never buy or even watch again because I didn't care for it


But I will credit Criterion for opening my eyes to films that I would never have come across if not for their "label."
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post #1572 of 2499 Old 11-01-2010, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by kdssrugby View Post

No self control for me, I bought ten discs. Tha tbrings my collection of Criterion Blu's up to 58.

I thought I had a blu-ray addiction.

I only have about 10 so could you recommend some titles?

Thanks,
Tom

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post #1573 of 2499 Old 11-01-2010, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

I thought I had a blu-ray addiction.

I only have about 10 so could you recommend some titles?

Thanks,
Tom

I personally consider Fellini's 8 1/2 and Kurosawa's Seven Samurai to be essential cinema.
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post #1574 of 2499 Old 11-01-2010, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Monahan View Post

I thought I had a blu-ray addiction.

I only have about 10 so could you recommend some titles?

Thanks,
Tom

Here's some good ones that you should enjoy:

(In a foreign Language): Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, Sanjuro, M, Wages of Fear, The Third Man, Playtime, the Last Emperor, The Last Metro, Lola Montes.

(In English): Bigger than Life, Stage Coach, Paths of Glory, Charade, For All Mankind, Black Narcissus, Red Shoes.

And here's some that are less straight forward (i.e. mess with your mind or can be enjoyed when the content can be viewed metaphorically etc):

(All in a Foreign Language): Seventh Seal (one of my all time favourites), 8 1/2, Repulsion, Wings of Desire.
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post #1575 of 2499 Old 11-02-2010, 09:09 AM
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Went yesterday ater work and the same movies appeared to be all available from my previous visit a day earlier. It is unfortunate cause there are some good ones out there that folks would enjoy and I doubt the majority do not even know about Criterion movies. It would be hard to tell though if they would be willing to purchase any even at $20.

Word of caution to blind buying cause there are some I feel most would not care to view a second time. Do some research before taking the plunge. $20 isn't cheap.
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Originally Posted by kdssrugby View Post

Here's some good ones that you should enjoy:

(In a foreign Language): Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, Sanjuro, M, Wages of Fear, The Third Man, Playtime, the Last Emperor, The Last Metro, Lola Montes.

(In English): Bigger than Life, Stage Coach, Paths of Glory, Charade, For All Mankind, Black Narcissus, Red Shoes.

And here's some that are less straight forward (i.e. mess with your mind or can be enjoyed when the content can be viewed metaphorically etc):

(All in a Foreign Language): Seventh Seal (one of my all time favourites), 8 1/2, Repulsion, Wings of Desire.

The Thin Red Line, Chungking Express, and Monsoon Wedding are among my very favorite BDs.

I also very much second For All Mankind, which is a great movie, and though 4:3, a glorious BD as well.

I haven't seen any of the Kurosawa BDs yet, but he is the greatest director of all time, by far, and those are among my favorite films, so I tentatively recommend those as well assuming the BDs are solid which AFAIK they are.
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post #1577 of 2499 Old 11-02-2010, 02:34 PM
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I bought TTRL when I got a 40% off coupon a few weeks ago as I did not know about the 50% sale. To tell the truth, I wish I bought that movie instead of about 50% of what I own!
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post #1578 of 2499 Old 11-02-2010, 07:24 PM
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I would have to recommend "Revanche" as one of the best (if not the best) contemporary films they've released. It was a blind buy for $26 (back in the good old days, when Amazon CC prices were fair) and I would value it at twice that. Excellent film.


I had "In the Realm of the Senses" in my hands but put it back. There's just not enough replay value there. Tonight I'll be watching "The Magician" which I decided to rent.

Can anyone comment on "Black Narcissus?" I remember reading a review after being interested by the cover art.
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post #1579 of 2499 Old 11-02-2010, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by oland View Post

Can anyone comment on "Black Narcissus?" I remember reading a review after being interested by the cover art.

On the film itself? I have a capsule review here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18996503

-Bill
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post #1580 of 2499 Old 11-02-2010, 08:17 PM
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Black Narcissus, which I discovered on DVD about 10 years ago, has become one of my favorite films of all time- and it opened the door to all the other Powell and Pressburger films for me, most of which I've loved almost as much.
It's a ravishing film in terms of the use of color, and an amazing achievement when you learn how it was actually filmed. I jumped on the UK release a couple years back and it remains one of my favorite Bds. I sidegraded to the Criterion the last sale to get the extras and booklet, but it should be the same as far as image particulars go.
It's a steal for $20 on Bd. With a membership and coupons (YMMV on these now) I paid $14.

I still haven't watched any on the Criterions I picked up from the last two sales (somewhere over 20 altogether I'm sure) but I still have about 6 or 7 I plan to pick up with this one. Bought Thin Red Line tonight.
Will be going back tomorrow for
Breathless, House, Paths Of Glory, The Magician, or Stagecoach.
But the ones I'm most looking forward to are right before it's over- Modern Times and Night Of The Hunter.

Shame the BBS set will miss the sale by a day. It will be a long wait till the next sale to see Last Picture Show In HD
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post #1581 of 2499 Old 11-02-2010, 08:19 PM
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Thanks guys, I'll definitely have to give it a shot then.
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Originally Posted by oland View Post

I would have to recommend "Revanche" as one of the best (if not the best) contemporary films they've released. It was a blind buy for $26 (back in the good old days, when Amazon CC prices were fair) and I would value it at twice that. Excellent film.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one, that was great!
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post #1583 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Paulidan View Post

Black Narcissus, which I discovered on DVD about 10 years ago, has become one of my favorite films of all time- and it opened the door to all the other Powell and Pressburger films for me, most of which I've loved almost as much.
It's a ravishing film in terms of the use of color, and an amazing achievement when you learn how it was actually filmed.




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post #1584 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 05:46 AM
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I went for Paths of Glory and Night of the Hunter.
I'm actually still in doubts if I should get 8 1/2. I have always feared it would be to "arty" for me. But then again so much people are saying what fantastic film this is...
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The Last Metro and Revanche are two extremely good films. I will say that the performances in Revanche may be the best in the history of cinema. It is like the story actually happened and there is a hidden camera documenting it. To me, there are so many excellent choices that there are many that could be picked up based on taste: M, Ride with the Devil, Stagecoach, Seven Samauri, Yojimbo/Sanjuro, The Thin Red Line, Days of Heaven, Charade, The Seventh Seal, and several others. I would say The Third Man, but it is out of print.
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post #1586 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manco455 View Post

I went for Paths of Glory and Night of the Hunter.
I'm actually still in doubts if I should get 8 1/2. I have always feared it would be to "arty" for me. But then again so much people are saying what fantastic film this is...

8 1/2 is definitely "artsy", but in the very best way possible imo!
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post #1587 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 08:33 AM
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I think I have seen pretty much every Criterion Blu-ray that is out so far and my favorites are:

The Thin Red Line
Everlasting Moments
The Secret of the Grain
Summer Hours
Bigger Than Life
The Third Man
Monsoon Wedding
The Seventh Seal
The 400 Blows

My least favorites:

In The Realm of the Senses
Last Year at Marienbad
Mystery Train
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post #1588 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by manco455 View Post

I went for Paths of Glory and Night of the Hunter.
I'm actually still in doubts if I should get 8 1/2. I have always feared it would be to "arty" for me. But then again so much people are saying what fantastic film this is...

It took me a couple of viewings to begin to appreciate 8 1/2. Like all great movies, this one gets better each time I watch it.
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post #1589 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 09:58 AM
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It took me a couple of viewings to begin to appreciate 8 1/2. Like all great movies, this one gets better each time I watch it.

The same for me with 8 1/2. I had to watch it a second time to enjoy it more. I have had the same feelings with many of the Criterion releases on Blu-ray.
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post #1590 of 2499 Old 11-04-2010, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by RDarrylR View Post

The same for me with 8 1/2. I had to watch it a second time to enjoy it more. I have had the same feelings with many of the Criterion releases on Blu-ray.

The only times I've had this feeling is with Last Yeat at Marienbad and 8 1/2, but I enjoy them for this very fact (that my thoughts change or notice something new each time). My first time watching 8 1/2 was unfortunately ruined due to watching it with my roommate who hated it and grumbled through it (the frequent pausing to explain things didn't help).

Best part of 8 1/2 for me was the Saraghina scene. It kills me that the music for it is not available on CD, LP etc.
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