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post #271 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

This is where these kinds of threads drive me crazy.

So many "opinions" and inappropriate comparisons that any validity, credibility, and objectivity just vanish.

I Am Legend is given incredible reviews. Yet one person sees banding and compression artifacts that no one else has commented on and the thread is ready to give the movie negatives.

Comparing I Am Legend to Men In Black and saying the one isn't as visually arresting as the other? The movies have very different filming styles. They aren't supposed to look the same. MIB doesn't have the slick look of I Am Legend. It's not supposed to. By making this kind of comparison, it sounds like it's to MIB's detriment that it isn't as visually arresting as I Am Legend.

And patrick99 says DNR is pervasive. If that was the case, why is there so much detail in this film and why does it not have the look that is so often described in movies that do have too much DNR??

And patrick, I don't like Bracke. He nitpicks to death. The fact that he hasn't nitpicked I Am Legend and doesn't see the DNR you describe and doesn't see the compression and banding that igans sees makes these observations even less credible.

With all due respect to the originator of this thread, which theoretically was a good idea, I find I've just lost interest in reading so many conflicting and nitpicking details from admittedly good transfers.

Reading this thread I have to wonder if anyone is actually capable of just sitting back and enjoying a movie without analyzing every frame for the slightest flaw.

Bracke is extremely inconsistent in his approach. He is generally very "easy" on Warner releases, which IAL is.
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post #272 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

Comparing I Am Legend to Men In Black and saying the one isn't as visually arresting as the other? The movies have very different filming styles. They aren't supposed to look the same. MIB doesn't have the slick look of I Am Legend. It's not supposed to. By making this kind of comparison, it sounds like it's to MIB's detriment that it isn't as visually arresting as I Am Legend.

Put the personal comment aside "to me". I did mention about good PQ and lack of EE and DNR, so MIB is def. nomination worthy. But back to my "personal" perference, the next person can have the total opposite opinion. I do agree that comments like that could create needless confusion, so i'll refrain in making...
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post #273 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

The point is to nitpick...otherwise every single film made would get onto the thread.

I don't totally agree. I'm seeing many excellent/very good transfer being nitpicked. And sadly, some readers just don't understand that just because a good transfer has some minor flaws, it's still a very good transfer.

"In the Line of Fire" is a very fine looking transfer of a very good movie. Read Ralph's review. He points out a few minor flaws that in no way invalidate the transfer as being quite good. Yet here are some comments in that thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehouse View Post

Thanks for the review Ralph, I had a bit background part in this film and I was looking forward to seeing myself in Blu Ray glory but it sounds like my old LaserDisc version may be just as good!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Thanks for the review Ralph. After reading the review I have decided to pass on this one. Looks like Sony is becoming like Universal by throwing us old transfers onto Blu-ray.

These two comments simply boggle the mind and make me wonder what thought processes some people go through when they decide if they want to watch a particular BD movie. The two above are really missing out of a fine movie that's very well presented.

And that one even thinks that his laser disk may be as good is simply incomprehensible.
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post #274 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 06:03 PM
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Spiderwick Chronicles is also an outstanding transfer. Very fine grain, and excellent detail including peach fuzz on the kids faces.

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post #275 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 06:05 PM
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I Am Legend has some issues and is in no way a perfect transfer. I gave an image review almost as soon this title was released in the PQ Tier thread if you want more detailed analysis. Since then an insider on another forum has admitted some DNR was used on it which even I didn't detect upon viewing.

Warner decided to encode two separate movies(both the theatrical cut and the other cut) on this release. Combined with the fact that it is a HD DVD crippled encode there are some compression issues in general with this title. The professional reviewers simply overrated the quality of this Blu-ray's image. Don't get me wrong this BD looks very good but I feel it could have been much better.
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post #276 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 06:42 PM
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The problem with IAL is two-fold and requires to be viewed couple of times to understand the problems with the encode.

1) Yet another soft and filtered looking title with only the close-up shots looking sharp. This is how it might have looked in the theater, so I can't comment on this further.

2) Dark scene noise. For instance take the scene where Neville follows his Dog in the dark warehouse is filled with dot crawls, compression noise and sub-par black levels with minimal to zero shadow details. This type of noise frequents in many of the dark scenes.

3) Banding visible in the scene where the Zombies attack Neville at his residence. I am not sure if it was caused by low bit rate VC-1 or if it was present in the source but it's plainly visible on-screen.

I am Legend may be a good looking title but it's far from being excellent or reference.

Note: Before drawing any negative conclusions on my assessment do keep in mind that I recommended Tier-1 placement for I am Legend in the PQ tier thread. I initially voted for top tier-1 but requested the mods to push it down to bottom of tier-1 due to the observation of certain inconsistencies in PQ on my second viewing.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #277 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

The problem with IAL is two-fold and requires to be viewed couple of times to understand the problems with the encode.

1) Yet another soft and filtered looking title with only the close-up shots looking sharp. This is how it might have looked in the theater, so I can't comment on this further.

2) Dark scene noise. For instance take the scene where Neville follows his Dog in the dark warehouse is filled with dot crawls, compression noise and sub-par black levels with minimal to zero shadow details. This type of noise frequents in many of the dark scenes.

3) Banding visible in the scene where the Zombies attack Neville at his residence. I am not sure if it was caused by low bit rate VC-1 or if it was present in the source but it's plainly visible on-screen.

I am Legend may be a good looking title but it's far from being excellent or reference.

Anyone agree with him?
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post #278 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

I don't totally agree. I'm seeing many excellent/very good transfer being nitpicked. And sadly, some readers just don't understand that just because a good transfer has some minor flaws, it's still a very good transfer.

Minor flaws still allow the film to be nominated here and it would go on the list if nominated by someone - It's only major issues that disqualify it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Anyone agree with him?

I will take a close look at all the scenes pointed out later before i can really comment but my first viewing of this title led me to nominate it.

I have an open mind though and if i'm wrong and it has major issues i will report back if i see them.

I would rule out the first complaint though regarding a soft image....I found it highly detailed and very cinematic....Remember this isn't a demo thread. I will check the other issues that were raised later today.



Adding The Spiderwick Chronicles to the Nomination list as per request.
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post #279 of 1897 Old 07-01-2008, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Anyone agree with him?

Actually I think IAL is a freak Warner title. It's HD-DVD optimized but it looks super sharp. I think the lack of shadow details is part of attempt to create suspense with only the flashlight(F you Doom 3). As for some of the softness I leave that to the inherent laziness in production.

You go through all the trouble to shut down a bridge and parts of NY and then use CG monsters. Use costumes and make-up.

I don't recall any excessive noise at any point in the film. There was probably grain from the low lighting conditions at the warehouse.

The color banding - it's always a pain in the ass to tell if it was from the source or the display.

IAL is like Batman Begins, if VC-1 doesn't have breathing room it usually 'smooths' things out more. IAL has too much detail for there to be DNR.

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

Studio quality tier
Most Major studios>Small Studios>dogs>cats>Warner(the guys that do new movies)
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post #280 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 02:16 AM
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There's no zombies in I Am Legend.
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post #281 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

There's no zombies in I Am Legend.

Ok they are post-apocalyptic infected human beings.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #282 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

The problem with IAL is two-fold and requires to be viewed couple of times to understand the problems with the encode.

1) Yet another soft and filtered looking title with only the close-up shots looking sharp. This is how it might have looked in the theater, so I can't comment on this further.

2) Dark scene noise. For instance take the scene where Neville follows his Dog in the dark warehouse is filled with dot crawls, compression noise and sub-par black levels with minimal to zero shadow details. This type of noise frequents in many of the dark scenes.

3) Banding visible in the scene where the Zombies attack Neville at his residence. I am not sure if it was caused by low bit rate VC-1 or if it was present in the source but it's plainly visible on-screen.

I am Legend may be a good looking title but it's far from being excellent or reference.

Note: Before drawing any negative conclusions on my assessment do keep in mind that I recommended Tier-1 placement for I am Legend in the PQ tier thread. I initially voted for top tier-1 but requested the mods to push it down to bottom of tier-1 due to the observation of certain inconsistencies in PQ on my second viewing.

Totally agree on bolded comment.
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post #283 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Anyone agree with him?

I do. Mainly with the picture being soft outside of a select few close-ups. Reminds me a lot of Rambo (the new one). It's good, but not great.

Direct screen grabs of long shots will illustrate best, how soft the overall image looks. Still, I didn't notice any EE or DNR (though to be honest, I wasn't looking the first time I viewed the BD disc).


edit: Add another vote for MIB. Great transfer, and a substantial upgrade over the dvd version for sure (especially on my projector).
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post #284 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

I Am Legend is given incredible reviews. Yet one person sees banding and compression artifacts that no one else has commented on and the thread is ready to give the movie negatives.

Not by everybody. Don't get too caught up in "professional" reviews. And of course there are many who agree with lgans. However this thread is more about post-production processing rather than how sharp or detailed a movie is, right? The issue should focus on those things.

Brandon
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post #285 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post

However this thread is more about post-production processing rather than how sharp or detailed a movie is, right?

Brandon

I wouldn't have phrased it that way.

A movie can be sharp and detailed and still be nominated for this thread.....It's about accurate reproduction of the original film work on the Blu Ray format......Minor issues with the transfer to Blu Ray are fine.

From Page 1

The Film Has Already Been Made - Reproduce it


I would like people to post the names of film titles they own on Blu Ray which they believe have not been altered significantly by excessive DNR or edge enhancement or any other processes which might alter the original intent or alter what we know about how film looks based on our years of viewing experience.

If a film has grain it can be on this list or if it was shot with soft filter lenses or any other film making technique which is used as long as it maintains it's artistic integrity when transferred to Blu Ray. Digital camera shot films have their own list with the same rules.

This isn't a demo material thread it's intended to highlight film like titles.

If you think a film shouldn't be on this list then list your reasons and if you see problems with any scenes try to give a time in the film of where these problems occur and they can be checked. Three negatives will see a film either placed in the Film Like But Issues With Transfer list or removed completely from the thread. This will all depend on the basis of the negatives. Excessive DNR or EE will see the film removed with three negatives.

For Smaller Screen Owners - Recommended Viewing Distance Relating to Your Screen Size

Screen Size >>>>>>>>720p >>>>>>>>> 1080p

32 inches >>>>>>>>> 6 feet >>>>>>>> 4 feet
37 inches >>>>>>>>> 7 feet >>>>>>>> 5 feet
40 inches >>>>>>>>> 8 feet >>>>>>>> 5 feet
42 inches >>>>>>>>> 8 feet >>>>>>>> 5.5 feet
46 inches >>>>>>>>> 9 feet >>>>>>>> 6 feet
50 inches >>>>>>>> 10 feet >>>>>>>> 6.5 feet
52 inches >>>>>>>> 10 feet >>>>>>>> 7 feet
65 inches >>>>>>>> 13 feet >>>>>>>> 8.5 feet

Refer to this link for more help and information on screen size and distance for viewing. http://www.darkrealmfox.com/screenviewing.html

Please also use the EE/DNR thread located at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=937873

Edge enhancement guide and how to spot it - http://www.videophile.info/Guide_EE/Page_01.htm

Take a good read of this too.....http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...ris062408.html - From that link...Grain is an inherent part of the film image.

Check out Xylon's screenshot threads too - Very informative.


Art mentioned this and i agree with his statement which holds true for movies shot with film.

We want BD to look like film not video
* Simply stylized looks be it soft focus, intentional crushing of blacks or applied grain for example are not, in and of themselves, reasons to reduce a films rating.
* Obvious artifacts like blocking,DNR and edge enhancement should reduce the rating since these are not part of film and add the video look.
* Things like pop,3D and long depth of field are not requirements for high ranking since again these are not requisites for a great film presentation although they may occur in a great film presentation.


This thread will have films which some consider ugly looking or some consider soft looking ( to their eyes ) It will have a wide variety of film looking titles as well as some digital shot films. It will not please everybody but it's aim is different from the tier thread.

All nominations that fit the criteria are welcome.


I will add Men In Black to the Nomination list and will check out I Am Legend for Lgans as soon as i have time.


Lgans....

I just checked out the scenes you mentioned in I Am Legend.

No compression effects, no dot crawl and no banding and the film really has a great detailed look to it....I just didn't see what you are seeing...I'm using a 106 inch projection system which has been calibrated.

I can only suggest you carefully check your display.
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post #286 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I wouldn't have phrased it that way.

A movie can be sharp and detailed and still be nominated for this thread.....It's about accurate reproduction of the original film work on the Blu Ray format......Minor issues with the transfer to Blu Ray are fine.

That's not the impression I was trying to give. I meant that how sharp or detailed the title is doesn't really make it or break it in this thread. Discussion about whether or not it's softer than another title isn't the issue (as discussed in the first post). The issue, as I understand it, is whether or not the transfer has defects (compression noise, banding) or post processing (DNR) that alters the look of it on home video in a way the director never intended.

Brandon
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post #287 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Lgans....

I just checked out the scenes you mentioned in I Am Legend.

No compression effects, no dot crawl and no banding and the film really has a great detailed look to it....I just didn't see what you are seeing...I'm using a 106 inch projection system which has been calibrated.

I can only suggest you carefully check your display.


Now Foxy be nice
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post #288 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 12:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Lgans....

I just checked out the scenes you mentioned in I Am Legend.

No compression effects, no dot crawl and no banding and the film really has a great detailed look to it....I just didn't see what you are seeing...I'm using a 106 inch projection system which has been calibrated.

I can only suggest you carefully check your display.

I also checked again and found NONE of the problems igans mentioned.

It may be his equipment, but I, and others, have often noted faulty observations on his part.
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post #289 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 12:42 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Now Foxy be nice

?
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post #290 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 12:52 PM
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post #291 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 01:37 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I Am Legend comparison *PIX*

Good pics which do show some nice fine detail.

Now hurry up with The Golden Compass and trailer pics ( just kidding - take your time lol )
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post #292 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Good pics which do show some nice fine detail.

To my eyes, they clearly show the smeary smoothness of DNR.
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post #293 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

To my eyes, they clearly show the smeary smoothness of DNR.

Your views are as valid as anyone's although i disagree with them and the images show plenty of detail ( to my eyes )
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post #294 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Your views are as valid as anyone's although i disagree with them and the images show plenty of detail ( to my eyes )

I agree with this.

I think I Am Legend looks pretty darn good.

Don't care much for the movie though (and regret my blind buy of the Blu-ray).
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post #295 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 03:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

To my eyes, they clearly show the smeary smoothness of DNR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Your views are as valid as anyone's although i disagree with them and the images show plenty of detail ( to my eyes )

STOP. This is ridiculous. You both can't be right. No way. And both views can't be as valid as anyone else's. Let's stop tiptoeing around political correctness and being nice for the sake of being nice.

There either is "smeary smoothness" or there isn't. If DNR was applied, then x amount of DNR was applied. Now, if it's a subjective question as to slight differences of opinion as to just a bit too much DNR or just a tad of too little DNR, then I see a debate and difference of opinion.

But there's a wide gap between "smeary smoothness" and "plenty of detail". One of you is very wrong and has major problems with your vision, displays, equipment, or a brain tumor.

patrick, based upon all the comment made, you are the one who is wrong. I don't care what your "opinion" is or what you think you are seeing, but there just can't be one or two people who feel as you do and be correct, when dozens of others disagree with you. Can you explain why you and perhaps one other person feel as you do and so many others disagree with you? Isn't the onus on you, being the extreme minority, to further back up your claims. Or are you just being obstinate? Is your display screwed up?

Perhaps you folks need to talk to the person that applied the DNR and get the objective numbers/facts and then come back here and continue this thread. Otherwise, these conflicts make evaluations meaningless!
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post #296 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

To my eyes, they clearly show the smeary smoothness of DNR.

Smeary smoothness of DNR?

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post #297 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by townofturley View Post

STOP. This is ridiculous. You both can't be right. No way. And both views can't be as valid as anyone else's. Let's stop tiptoeing around political correctness and being nice for the sake of being nice.

I know what you are saying but i can't just dismiss anyone's opinion...Yep it's a little bit politically correct ( and i hate that ) but if i dismiss people then i would be called arrogant ( or worse ) I might then run into trouble with the moderators and then the thread loses out so instead i try to make everyone's opinions welcome....I will fight my ground though if i believe something is good and that's what i am doing here.

I think I Am Legend is a good looking film like title that belongs on this thread.
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post #298 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 03:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I know what you are saying but i can't just dismiss anyone's opinion...Yep it's a little bit politically correct ( and i hate that ) but if i dismiss people then i would be called arrogant ( or worse ) I might then run into trouble with the moderators and then the thread loses out so instead i try to make everyone's opinions welcome....I will fight my ground though if i believe something is good and that's what i am doing here.

I think I Am Legend is a good looking film like title that belongs on this thread.

I also agree that "I Am Legend" is a very fine transfer with great detail.

I understand your position and predicament. The problem I see is that this thread requires a fair amount of objective input. "Opinions" must really be minimized. And very bad and uninformed "opinions" especially detract from the validity of what this thread is trying to accomplish. patrick really need to come forward and explain his position more thoroughly. He need to post well made screen captures that prove his contention. What good is this thread, or this board for that matter, if reliable and valid information is so hard to achieve?

patrick, this isn't personal. It's strictly about the content of your post and your observations. You're posting a contention that's in the extreme minority. Can you back up your contention? IAL can't both have smeary smoothness and fine detail. Do you disagree with this? Are you correct and everyone else is wrong?
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post #299 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I know what you are saying but i can't just dismiss anyone's opinion...Yep it's a little bit politically correct ( and i hate that ) but if i dismiss people then i would be called arrogant ( or worse ) I might then run into trouble with the moderators and then the thread loses out so instead i try to make everyone's opinions welcome....I will fight my ground though if i believe something is good and that's what i am doing here.

I think I Am Legend is a good looking film like title that belongs on this thread.

That's ok Foxy, let us dismiss him. I have the BD and I also saw the film in the theater. The BD looks great, full of detail, and represents what I remember seeing in the theater.

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #300 of 1897 Old 07-02-2008, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Smeary smoothness of DNR?


agreed. Compare to that to some of the Patton or Longest Day pix!
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