Film Reference and Analysis - Page 25 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #721 of 1897 Old 12-29-2008, 04:14 AM - Thread Starter
 
FoxyMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by micnic77 View Post

I noticed some kind of halo in certain shots as well (sail boat in front of the blue sky) but thought it's not digital EE. In other scenes, where you would expect it, there is nothing. If you look at the screenshots at e.g. blu-ray.com there is not the slightest hint of EE to me. The contrast is strongly boosted but that's it. Anyone knows screenshots of the suspicious scenes?

I'll make a note against it to point this out.

I wonder if the contrast boosting has something to do with it and it's not EE/Ringing. Perhaps something they did to the print post production. The excellent There Will Be Blood also has contrast boosting to give it a certain film look and it too has been noted as having an oversharpened look with EE in scenes and i just think there is a connection going on here.

Whatever the cause i will make a note of it.
FoxyMulder is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #722 of 1897 Old 12-29-2008, 04:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rsbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

The excellent There Will Be Blood also has contrast boosting to give it a certain film look and it too has been noted as having an oversharpened look with EE in scenes and i just think there is a connection going on here.

I've read your comments about There Will Be Blood in other threads and I agree with you. First, I believe the altered contrast as well as the blown out highlights from time to time were intentional, part of the striking and beautiful (and award winning) cinematography. Second, the comments I've read with regard to the landscapes lacking detail, I believe this is the result of some color desaturation and lowered resolution due to some modified lenses which, along with the altered contrast and blown highlights gives a beautiful vintage as well as sun-bleached look. As for what appears to be ringing on the hat -- that's a very high contrast edge and Robert Harris has explained that sometimes the grain of the film will record a reflection of light from a high contrast edge and produce something that looks like ringing. It's a fine line: We don't want people messing with the director's intentions, but we also don't want to jump to conclusions without more information. Several times now, we've seen these types of assumptions turn out to be false. IMO, the prudent thing is to say what we know. We know there is ringing, we know there are at least three things that cause it and two of them are benign, and we very often cannot say for certain how it has been caused because we do not have access to either the print or the film maker. That's just my opinion. Again, you are doing a great job here and I'm cool with whatever you decide.
rsbeck is offline  
post #723 of 1897 Old 12-29-2008, 05:01 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rsbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
From American Cinematographer:

The production [of There Will Be Blood] employed a range of Panavision anamorphic lenses that were modified for the filmmakers by lens designer Dan Sasaki...

Sasaki also tricked up a vintage 43mm lens that was built around the optical element of a 1910 Pathé camera Anderson had bought and used for select scenes in Magnolia. According to Barry “Baz” Idoine, Elswit’s 1st AC, “The C-Series lenses were generally used for interiors that didn’t require high-speed lenses. The Es had lower contrast and resolution than standard Es and a softer look than the modified Cs; that set was often used for exteriors to soften the harsh desert daylight a bit. The Super High Speed lenses were really amazing — they were so fresh from the machine shop they weren’t even anodized. We used those for night sequences, of course, but Bob also used them to capture some dusk sequences that were just phenomenal. The SP lenses were anamorphized by Dan after we’d done some tests with them. The 43mm lens definitely had a vintage look — desaturated, low-contrast, vignetting and low-resolution.” Sasaki explains, “The main modifications I made [to the C- and E-Series lenses] involved replacing the old taking lenses with more modern glass, but we also changed the cylinder prescriptions a little to make the lenses flatter. The Es were optimized for maximum fidelity, but we made the Cs more vulnerable to flaring with modifications that would cause the light to scatter a bit more; in some of them, we introduced reflective material, and in others, we removed the anti-reflective coatings from the lenses. Paul didn’t want the flares to look like the kind you might see in a music video; he wanted the controlled, organic look you’d get from a dated lens.
rsbeck is offline  
post #724 of 1897 Old 12-29-2008, 05:12 AM - Thread Starter
 
FoxyMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

I've read your comments about There Will Be Blood in other threads and I agree with you.

I just thought There Will Be Blood was an excellent film with gorgeous cinematography. Some people thought it looked horrendous but i thought it looked beautiful and i didn't see major issues with it and i still believe anything which is there is how it was filmed and i too linked to that article in the EE/DNR thread but anyways i added a note and put it reluctantly on the minor issues list.
FoxyMulder is offline  
post #725 of 1897 Old 12-29-2008, 05:18 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rsbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 2,823
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I just thought There Will Be Blood was an excellent film with gorgeous cinematography. Some people thought it looked horrendous but i thought it looked beautiful and i didn't see major issues with it and i still believe anything which is there is how it was filmed

I agree with you completely. I find the cinematography unique and striking, designed by risk taking artists, the best kind of eye candy. A lot of the imagery is just stunning, sears itself into your memory.
rsbeck is offline  
post #726 of 1897 Old 12-30-2008, 04:22 PM
 
dvdmike007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 8,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Want to nominate Babylon A.D. stunning through out, great image very film like
dvdmike007 is offline  
post #727 of 1897 Old 12-30-2008, 04:33 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Rob Tomlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,752
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I came to this thread to nominate Wanted as fully deserving of being on the main list. I see that it is already there.

Carry on.

Rob Tomlin is offline  
post #728 of 1897 Old 12-30-2008, 04:57 PM
AVS Special Member
 
42041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 3,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Much like in the case of The Dark Knight, the trailer of There Will Be Blood does not exhibit the same issues the blu-ray does. I wouldn't say its a bad looking disc though.
42041 is offline  
post #729 of 1897 Old 12-31-2008, 03:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Oliver Klohs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Posts: 2,522
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Much like in the case of The Dark Knight, the trailer of There Will Be Blood does not exhibit the same issues the blu-ray does. I wouldn't say its a bad looking disc though.

That would rule out the camera as cause of these anomalies and means that we could also have gotten that kind of quality on the disc.

It is disheartening to still see movies where certain aspects of the picture look more natural in a making-of and/or trailers than in the "improved" version we get on Blu-Ray. So far I have seen this with TDK, There will be Blood and Baraka and I have to say that all of them still look watchable or even pretty good but it never hurts to make the best of what is available in digital form.
Oliver Klohs is offline  
post #730 of 1897 Old 12-31-2008, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
 
FoxyMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

Want to nominate Babylon A.D. stunning through out, great image very film like

I'll add it to the nomination list.

To be honest folks i find so much can be done post production before the film is out at the cinema that it's hard to judge image quality based on what you see on a trailer. Now that didn't use to be the case before we had computer editing but now you have all the changes they can make to the image in the computer that sometimes trailers just don't give the full picture and they can be misleading if the trailer is produced before the full film gets released and that is usually the case these days.

With TDK we already know it's because they used the IMAX print as the source for the Blu Ray so that's a whole different thing.

As regards this thread i will always err on the side of caution though and point out potential issues on every film if people see them and report them here and that's why There Will Be Blood is on the minor issues list even though i personally think it looks superb and anything people are seeing is part of the stylistic look the director and cinematographer intended and the EE isn't actually EE.....See the posts above for further clarification on that. Now you want EE check out The X Files - Fight The Future....That's bad and very annoying EE.

But as already said it's on the minor issues list as some believe there are issues to that film and this isn't the thread to argue otherwise - People point out what they believe to be flaws and we'll print it here even if i don't agree ( democracy at work )
FoxyMulder is offline  
post #731 of 1897 Old 12-31-2008, 06:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lgans316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Barking, Essex, London
Posts: 6,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Face-Off ------ Excessive DNR

Also include this. Face-Off (Import) ------ Excessive DNR and Edge Enhancement. Looks god awful. Smearing and frozen grain structure throughout.

Blu-ray : 340
lgans316 is offline  
post #732 of 1897 Old 12-31-2008, 09:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
I nominate The Strangers. A natural looking transfer with grain intact. (Pretty good thriller, creepy movie too.)

DavidHir is offline  
post #733 of 1897 Old 01-01-2009, 12:10 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
I'd like to also add Spider-Man to the Minor Issues list because of some EE here and there (very minor and very infrequent). Film grain very much intact.

DavidHir is offline  
post #734 of 1897 Old 01-01-2009, 12:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lgans316's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Barking, Essex, London
Posts: 6,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I'd like to also add Spider-Man to the Minor Issues list because of some EE here and there (very minor and very infrequent). Film grain very much intact.

Also make a mention of the horrendous black levels on the pre-climax and climax sequences.

Blu-ray : 340
lgans316 is offline  
post #735 of 1897 Old 01-01-2009, 07:50 AM - Thread Starter
 
FoxyMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I nominate The Strangers. A natural looking transfer with grain intact. (Pretty good thriller, creepy movie too.)

Added to the nomination list.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I'd like to also add Spider-Man to the Minor Issues list because of some EE here and there (very minor and very infrequent). Film grain very much intact.

Added to the minor issues list.....As for the black levels....Possibly just the intended look and the way Raimi filmed it and i'll let it go for now and people can view it and decide for themselves. The special features might have some more information on that side of the filming angle.
FoxyMulder is offline  
post #736 of 1897 Old 01-01-2009, 10:07 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
I didn't think the blacks were "horrendous" at the climax/end although they seemed a bit elevated - maybe intended, not sure. Maybe display/technology type plays a factor too?

DavidHir is offline  
post #737 of 1897 Old 01-01-2009, 02:55 PM
 
dvdmike007's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 8,687
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 50
For the Major Issues With Transfer To Blu Ray - Not Recommended For Viewing section
BATMAN 1989
Soft no fine detail and muted colours
dvdmike007 is offline  
post #738 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 12:09 AM
Member
 
micnic77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Posts: 98
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

For the Major Issues With Transfer To Blu Ray - Not Recommended For Viewing section
BATMAN 1989
Soft no fine detail and muted colours

I haven't watched it myself so this is just a neutral comment: If I look at the screenshots here it doesn't look great but not like something for the major issues list either.
micnic77 is offline  
post #739 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
 
FoxyMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdmike007 View Post

For the Major Issues With Transfer To Blu Ray - Not Recommended For Viewing section
BATMAN 1989
Soft no fine detail and muted colours


I'll record your negative against it for future reference Mike but for the major issues list i would prefer a general consensus before adding it which usually means at least a few more people calling it real bad. Anything going on that list has to be very bad.

In your opinion may i ask you if you think it has had DNR applied ?

Is there any smearing on faces which might be because of that DNR ?

Did you know Mel Gibson was originally cast to play Bruce Wayne/Batman but had to turn it down due to filming committments on Lethal Weapon 2.

There was also major complaints that the film was too dark when it was released at cinema's so Warner Bros "lightened" it for the first home video release - No idea if it's still that way or whether they used the original cinema look for future DVD and Blu Ray editions.

What's your opinion on the image quality of Batman Returns ?

Major issue with the hundland.org site is the use of JPEG compression instead of PNG for the screenshots....That makes it harder for me to tell if any issues in the screenshots are from using jpeg or are in the original source. As an example the shot of Catwoman on the bed - Look at her face and body and tell me is it really that bad on the Blu Ray or is it compression from using JPEG on the site ? Look closely just above her mouth.

Remember to double click the image for full size.

http://www.hundland.org/hd/b/batmanreturns16.jpg
FoxyMulder is offline  
post #740 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 09:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
MSmith83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,542
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 48
I think Assault on Precinct 13 (1976) is worthy of a nomination. There weren't any of the problems that this thread takes issue with. Based on a previous release, it seems that the restoration was rather extensive in properly removing scratches and other "defects."

Of course, the biggest attraction is the wonderful music score. I love this movie.
MSmith83 is offline  
post #741 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 09:52 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
I haven't seen Batman (89) on BD yet, so I will reserve judgment. However, based on these screenshots, I think it looks pretty natural. These movies have always had a muted, bit softer look to them.

http://www.hundland.org/hd/b/b.htm#batman

DavidHir is offline  
post #742 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 09:56 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
I'd like to nominate Eyes Wide Shut. Film grain is well intact and the image looks fairly natural despite some minor EE at times which should be noted, but not a big issue.

DavidHir is offline  
post #743 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 11:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
Whiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
A major negative for THE UNTOUCHABLES from Paramount. This is some of the heaviest grain reduction I've ever seen. It's not the sort that removes the texture completely, but rather freezes it, meaning that the backgrounds are filled with static grain patterns.
Whiggles is offline  
post #744 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 12:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
Whiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Posts: 750
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

This is unfortunately common for Paramount catalog titles. The Italian Job and Jack Ryan Collection are the same.

I thought this was probably the case. I remember BLACK RAIN being similarly affected.
Whiggles is offline  
post #745 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 12:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
patrick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

This is unfortunately common for Paramount catalog titles. The Italian Job and Jack Ryan Collection are the same.

I have the impression they may be doing a better job lately. That is certainly the case with their new releases.
patrick99 is offline  
post #746 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 01:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
patrick99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,912
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by benes View Post

But then they put out The Truman Show.

I haven't watched (or ordered) that one. I may watch Event Horizon tonight, though.

WRT new releases, Eagle Eye, for example, is a big step up from, say, Disturbia in PQ.
patrick99 is offline  
post #747 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 01:54 PM - Thread Starter
 
FoxyMulder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 5,860
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick99 View Post

I haven't watched (or ordered) that one. I may watch Event Horizon tonight, though.

WRT new releases, Eagle Eye, for example, is a big step up from, say, Disturbia in PQ.

I'm interested in purchasing Event Horizon....Let us all know what you think of the transfer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MSmith83 View Post

I think Assault on Precinct 13 (1976) is worthy of a nomination. There weren't any of the problems that this thread takes issue with. Based on a previous release, it seems that the restoration was rather extensive in properly removing scratches and other "defects."

Of course, the biggest attraction is the wonderful music score. I love this movie.

I'll put it on the nomination list for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I'd like to nominate Eyes Wide Shut. Film grain is well intact and the image looks fairly natural despite some minor EE at times which should be noted, but not a big issue.

I'll put it on the nomination list but be aware it's listed on the EE/DNR thread as having a lot of DNR applied to it so people might come onto the thread and neg it....Haven't seen it myself so can't comment on it at all other than to point out there are a few negatives floating about on AVS about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiggles View Post

A major negative for THE UNTOUCHABLES from Paramount. This is some of the heaviest grain reduction I've ever seen. It's not the sort that removes the texture completely, but rather freezes it, meaning that the backgrounds are filled with static grain patterns.

This one sounds like it's deserving of a place on the major issues list....What do you think ?

This is also an absolute gem of a movie which i would have bought but for all the negative reviews - I hate frozen grain and it's hideous when you see transfers which contain frozen grain structure and the DVD edition of Mr and Mrs Smith contained frozen grain structure and i have avoided the Blu Ray as i fear it might also have it...The script and direction and acting are all perfect in The Untouchables ( for me ) and i already own the special edition DVD of it. I would also have bought Face/Off if they had done justice to the transfer. Paramount you are losing sales because of this.

As for the Jack Ryan series i believe The Hunt For Red October is supposed to be a pretty good faithful transfer...I'm interested in purchasing that sometime this year so any comments on that one is welcome.
FoxyMulder is offline  
post #748 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 02:04 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I'm interested in purchasing Event Horizon....Let us all know what you think of the transfer.




I'll put it on the nomination list for you.




I'll put it on the nomination list but be aware it's listed on the EE/DNR thread as having a lot of DNR applied to it so people might come onto the thread and neg it....Haven't seen it myself so can't comment on it at all other than to point out there are a few negatives floating about on AVS about it.



This one sounds like it's deserving of a place on the major issues list....What do you think ?

This is also an absolute gem of a movie which i would have bought but for all the negative reviews - I hate frozen grain and it's hideous when you see transfers which contain frozen grain structure ( the DVD edition of Mr and Mrs Smith contained frozen grain structure and i have avoided the Blu Ray as i fear it might also have it ) ...The script and direction and acting are all perfect in The Untouchables ( for me ) and i already own the special edition DVD of it. I would also have bought Face/Off if they had done justice to the transfer. Paramount you are losing sales because of this.

As for the Jack Ryan series i believe The Hunt For Red October is supposed to be a pretty good faithful transfer...I'm interested in purchasing that sometime this year so any comments on that one is welcome.

The Hunt for Red October is fine.

Regarding Eyes Wide Shut, I'm surprised it's menitoned as DNR since there is quite a bit of film grain in it. It is a soft looking movie and not highly detailed - I'm thinking that's why some think it's DNR'd.

DavidHir is offline  
post #749 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 02:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,202
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 53 Post(s)
Liked: 379
Screenshots for Eyes Wide Shut - warning - some of these are very explicit. However, the film grain is very evident.

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcom...-wide-shut.htm

DavidHir is offline  
post #750 of 1897 Old 01-02-2009, 02:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
spectator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,036
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Screenshots for Eyes Wide Shut - warning - some of these are very explicit.

They don't call it dvdbeaver for nothin'.

/rimshot

I don't feel special...
spectator is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Software

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off