Film Reference and Analysis - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-22-2009, 02:44 PM
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Looks to me like Transporter 3 has the beginnings of a nice film-like look with grain intact, but there is persistent ringing and halos all through the film. To my eyes, this is more than a minor problem. It's a fast moving film with lots of quick cuts, but anyone who knows how to spot it will find problems in almost every scene and in almost every cut. It's a high contrast film with lots of high contrast edges and virtually every time there is a high contrast edge, there is ringing or a halo. But, it is not confined to high contrast edges. To my eyes, its a major issue.
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Old 03-22-2009, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Looks to me like Transporter 3 has the beginnings of a nice film-like look with grain intact, but there is persistent ringing and halos all through the film. To my eyes, this is more than a minor problem. It's a fast moving film with lots of quick cuts, but anyone who knows how to spot it will find problems in almost every scene and in almost every cut. It's a high contrast film with lots of high contrast edges and virtually every time there is a high contrast edge, there is ringing or a halo. But, it is not confined to high contrast edges. To my eyes, its a major issue.

This seems to contradict what you said in the Tier thread where you said it did not appear in every scene.

In either event, I completely disagree with the sentiment that this title has "persistent ringing and halos all through the film".
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:55 PM
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Friday, I watched Transporter 3, saw lots of ringing and halos and reported this on the PQ thread. Today, I watched it again with the idea that I might get some time stamps plus I wanted to do some more investigation to see if I should call it a minor issue or major on this thread, but I quickly realized, there should be no need for time stamps. Just load it up and keep your eyes open, you won't have to wait long to see it again and again.
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Old 03-22-2009, 05:59 PM
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I almost forgot:

I would like to nominate Transporter 3.

This is a fabulous looking title, with fine grain well preserved. A very natural and film like presentation.
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Old 03-22-2009, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Looks to me like Transporter 3 has the beginnings of a nice film-like look with grain intact, but there is persistent ringing and halos all through the film. To my eyes, this is more than a minor problem. It's a fast moving film with lots of quick cuts, but anyone who knows how to spot it will find problems in almost every scene and in almost every cut. It's a high contrast film with lots of high contrast edges and virtually every time there is a high contrast edge, there is ringing or a halo. But, it is not confined to high contrast edges. To my eyes, its a major issue.

Are you sure?

http://f.imagehost.org/view/0431/PDVD_010

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/screen...622&position=3
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Are you sure?

Yes. I checked again today. It's quite prevalent.
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Old 03-22-2009, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Yes. I checked again today. It's quite prevalent.

So it was erased from those screen grabs? And my copy of the disc?

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Originally Posted by benes View Post

I didn't see any issues at all on Transporter 3 and I'm also nominating it for the main list along with Punisher: War Zone.

Thanks benes. I hope to have Punisher: War Zone here next week via Netflix.
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Old 03-22-2009, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

Yes. I checked again today. It's quite prevalent.

I'm starting to clutter this thread a bit, and for that I apologize, but you and I agree on video quality much more often than we disagree, so this difference really has me perplexed.

So, I did some research looking for Blu-ray reviews of Transporter 3 to see how many of these reviewers noticed the same "persistent ringing and halos all through the film" as you did.

Here are the reviews that I was able to find via a Google search:

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/2036/transporter3.html

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies...22&show=review

http://www.thehdroom.com/news/Transp...ay_Review/4347

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...orter-3-a.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1128400


http://hometheatermag.com/movierevie...09transporter/

These reviews all have one thing in common: none of them mentions ANY ringing or EE.

Now, you and I will both agree that "professional reviews" are not the end all/be all or the final word by any means. But when not a single reviewer mentions it, combined with the fact that I did not see it (other than in two or three scenes where it was very minor), I have to wonder.

Also, the reviewer that I tend to agree with more than any other by far is Kris Deering. His review is the last one listed above. He does not mention any artifacts, and gives Transporter 3 a perfect 5/5 rating.

Finally, everyone else in the PQ Tier thread (including others with a projector) who has given a review has recommended it for the highest rating, and nobody else in that thread (at least not yet) has noted "persistent ringing and halos all through the film" as you have.

So, count me as being quite confused by this. I don't think you and I have ever seen (or not seen ) things quite this differently. Are you sure your video chain is not adding EE/ringing?
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Old 03-22-2009, 09:28 PM
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I find that it is not uncommon at all to see web-site reviewers claim that there is no DNR or ringing on a given title only to find that videophiles here can see it very easily. Personally, I cannot rely on those reviews at all.

Outside of a few contributors, it is also very uncommon to find anyone in the PQ thread who can spot either DNR or EE.

As you know, when I offered to supply time stamps, there was a chorus of people telling me they did not want to know about it.

I can tell you that I do not throw these accusations around lightly -- I believe my participation here will more than bear that out.

I don't want to sound offensive because I count you as a friend, but I am also very perplexed. To me, it is very easy to see and so repetitive that after awhile that's all I can see. It literally ruins the experience for me. I'm quite confident that if we could watch together, I could point it out for you and I think you might be shocked to see how much of it there is in this title and all of the different ways it shows up.

And then it could ruin the experience for you, too. :-)
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:26 PM
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Sim2 C3X1080 and I sit 13' from a 126" Diagonal Firehawk.
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Old 03-22-2009, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

I find that it is not uncommon at all to see web-site reviewers claim that there is no DNR or ringing on a given title only to find that videophiles here can see it very easily. Personally, I cannot rely on those reviews at all.

It is also very uncommon to find anyone in the PQ thread who can spot either DNR or EE.

Do you not have enough humility here to realize that you are the only one who sees "persistent ringing and halos all through the film"?

You can't rely on those reviews "at all".

Apparently you can't rely on anyone in the Tier thread either.

Or screen grabs.

And you can't rely on someone who often agrees with you in terms of picture quality issues (me).

I am not asking you to say that you don't see what you see, but I do think some humility and open mindedness might be in order here considering the facts as they currently exist.

Quote:


As you know, when I offered to supply time stamps, there was a chorus of people telling me they did not want to know about it.

There is an element that not only fails to see it, but adamantly so.

As I have said numerous times: if there is indeed "persistent ringing and halos all through the film" there is absolutely no need to provide "time stamps". You have even acknowledged this yourself saying: "I watched it again with the idea that I might get some time stamps plus I wanted to do some more investigation to see if I should call it a minor issue or major on this thread, but I quickly realized, there should be no need for time stamps. Just load it up and keep your eyes open, you won't have to wait long to see it again and again."

So why would you bring up the offer to post time stamps as some type of argument in your favor when you, yourself, have stated that there is no need for them?

Also, if it is so easy to see, and we won't have to wait long to see it "again and again" why hasn't anyone else noticed it thus far?

I know that I looked at this title with a critical eye from my normal viewing distance since I knew how others were giving it very high marks. I was also aware of your review indicating that there was a lot of ringing, so I was looking for it. I didn't see it. Offering time codes implies that I wasn't looking for these artifacts to begin with, but more importantly, as you said yourself, there should be no need for them since all you have to do is "keep your eyes open, you won't have to wait long to see it again and again".

Quote:


I can tell you that I do not throw these accusations around lightly -- I believe my participation here will more than bear that out.

I am trying to use evidence to find out the truth, and thus far, it appears that you are the only one to see this major issue. I have not accused you of lying or having an agenda as there is absolutely no evidence for that, which is why I asked if you were sure that there isn't something in your video chain that may be causing this.

Quote:


I don't want to sound offensive because I count you as a friend, but I am also very perplexed. To me, it is very easy to see and so repetitive that after awhile that's all I can see. It literally ruins the experience for me. I'm quite confident that if we could watch together, I could point it out for you and I think you might be shocked to see how much of it there is in this title and all of the different ways it shows up.

And then it could ruin the experience for you, too. :-)

Again, I am most certainly NOT accusing you of lying in any way, but at this point I am very suspicious of something else going on with your system, because that is the only thing that makes any sense to me given the current evidence.

Are you using any type of video processor to your display?

What exactly is it that you are calling "ringing"? Can you describe it? Can you point it out in any screen grabs that have been posted?

Here are some links to the screen grabs that I am aware of: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2059

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies...ow=screenshots
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:27 AM
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Personally, I think the gear discussion is going to go down a rabbit hole because I do not believe my gear has waited through 300+ titles only to add ringing to Transporter 3.

As for the still shots -- yes --

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=2059

Look at the second shot down. I see thin ringing along the shoulder of his jacket on the right. This looks very thin in the picture, but I guarantee you at 126" that is very visible.

Now, look at the fourth pic down -- look at the edge at the top of his jacket. That looks suspicious to me. I'd have to see that in motion to see if what looks like the makings of a halo move with the jacket or if my suspicion is unjustified.

Now, look at these...

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies...ow=screenshots

In the 7th one from the top, you see thin ringing along the tops of both actors' shoulders and along the right side of Stratham's face.

Now, go to the 8th picture and look along the actor's left shoulder and you'll see a faint halo. In motion, that will actually look even worse.

Now, go to the tenth picture. I see thin ringing around almost every dark object.

Now, go to the 12th picture. I see ringing almost all the way around the man, along the top of the door frame and I'll bet you that at 126" you'll see a halo around the monitor to the man's left.
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

I find that it is not uncommon at all to see web-site reviewers claim that there is no DNR or ringing on a given title only to find that videophiles here can see it very easily. Personally, I cannot rely on those reviews at all.

Outside of a few contributors, it is also very uncommon to find anyone in the PQ thread who can spot either DNR or EE.

As you know, when I offered to supply time stamps, there was a chorus of people telling me they did not want to know about it.

I can tell you that I do not throw these accusations around lightly -- I believe my participation here will more than bear that out.

I don't want to sound offensive because I count you as a friend, but I am also very perplexed. To me, it is very easy to see and so repetitive that after awhile that's all I can see. It literally ruins the experience for me. I'm quite confident that if we could watch together, I could point it out for you and I think you might be shocked to see how much of it there is in this title and all of the different ways it shows up.

And then it could ruin the experience for you, too. :-)

rsbeck, something does seem off. The first part I put in bold makes me wonder. That which I first put in bold from your post is the very definition of what one experiences when being obsessed with one thing more than anything else.

It really does seem like it has become your focus. No doubt you are seeing something, but when we have at least 1/2 dozen pro reviewers, 1/2 dozen PQ tier thread posters and others all claiming they see virtually no PQ anomalies and aren't worth noting if they did, something is not right. I find it hard to believe all the rest are wrong for not seeing it and you are right because you do and therefore you must have a more critical eye. This is the kind of arrogance or what other's perceive as arrogance that I have been trying to get across to you when we have had our discussions in the past.

I really believe your seeing ringing as prevalent as you do may have to do with you literally training yourself to be overly sensitive to it. I would compare it to a visual psychology experiment where in a room a person is asked to look around and notice all the things in the room that are the color red and only red. They are then asked to close their eyes and then tell what items in the room are green. Almost everyone who tries the experiment cannot remember anything in the room that is green, simply because in that short time frame they trained their eyes and brain to only see red. Now consider a long term application even based loosely on the above. I could see some thinking they are seeing something even when they aren't or they may actually see something, but it is minor and they are so sensitive to it that it seems major.

You have more or less even said yourself that you are sensitive to it. Again I bring attention to the bolded part of your post I quoted which in a sense makes that claim, "after a while that is all I can see."

The second part I put in bold makes me wonder if you are seeing high contrast which gives the appearance of ringing, but actually isn't ringing. Meaning there is such a delineation between objects because they are so well defined that is appears to be ringing.

I would like to try and understand what is going on here, so please take my post with some concern that I want to be fair to you, but also to these threads where I think we who participate in them take them fairly seriously, since others do read and respect most of what we have to say as being accurate or as close to accurate as possible.

I also am wondering, like Rob Tomlin, if there is something happening in your video chain. I wish you could do some screen grabs from your set up or that we lived a bit closer, have a meet and see what you are seeing.

Either way at the end of the day I think that since you are an avid and very influential poster in the PQ tier thread that we need to get some resolve on this issue, because it dramatically impacts the way the whole thread works. Nothing is all or nothing, except all or nothing, so let's get some resolve on this what ever it takes so the bickering can at least slow down and we can get back on track.

Hugh
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Old 03-23-2009, 01:41 AM
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Yet, I pop another title into my blu-ray player and -- voila -- no more ringing.
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
 
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I haven't got Transporter 3 and although i enjoyed the first two movies i don't think i'll buy this until the price goes way down so i can't comment on the image quality of the movie.

I do think it's good to have discussions like these though as long as we don't get too personal.

I will put Transporter 3 on the main list and also record the negative against it.

Remember two votes gets a film onto the main list and three negatives will see a film removed from the main list and placed either on the minor issues list or off the list completely. Usually we get agreement on these threads but sometimes it won't happen and thats why we have the 3 negative rule so people can have their vote counted.

I will also add Punisher:War Zone onto the main list since this is the second vote for it.

Little Miss Sunshine has not had a second vote for the main list but when/if it does get a second nomination i will also record David's negative vote against it.

I just noticed you can actually link directly to posts so will do that for negative votes on the main list thus people can click and see a more detailed negative response and it will also come in handy for actual pictures in comparison threads rather than linking directly to the whole thread. I'll update all that when i get some time.

Five years a member and i just noticed you can link directly to a post - Gee i'm slow sometimes
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Old 03-23-2009, 12:17 PM
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I would like to nominate Transporter 3.

I actually went through this title a 2nd time skimming through it just looking at PQ which I dont do that often. This one looks amazing IMO.

In all due respect beck, I also am wondering if maybe there is something in your video chain introducing excessive ringing? I find it strange that you are the ONLY one to bring up this issue to anywhere near this degree (infact I cant think of one mention I read anywhere) out of the ~12-15 reviews I have read here and around the web.

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Old 03-23-2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I would like to nominate Transporter 3.

I actually went through this title a 2nd time skimming through it just looking at PQ which I dont do that often. This one looks amazing IMO.

In all due respect beck, I also am wondering if maybe there is something in your video chain introducing excessive ringing? I find it strange that you are the ONLY one to bring up this issue to anywhere near this degree (infact I cant think of one mention I read anywhere) out of the ~12-15 reviews I have read here and around the web.

I always recommend to folks to look at an accurate 1080p sharpness pattern (such as the free AVS or new Stacey Spears' one) to make sure there is no EE being added to the image from one's system.

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Old 03-23-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I always recommend to folks to look at an accurate 1080p sharpness pattern (such as the free AVS or new Stacey Spears' one) to make sure there is no EE being added to the image from one's system.

Great suggestion David. I am going to check out the free AVS one on my own system to see how I am doing I ran through some tests when I got my projector, but not sure this was one of them.

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Old 03-23-2009, 03:21 PM
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Yes, in addition, some displays will add edge enhancement even if the sharpness control is at a correct level. Often times it takes turning down (or off) certain parameters in the display's service menu (something you don't want to do unless you know exactly what you're doing). My previous CRT RPTV required this. On my SXRD, all EE can be controlled with the sharpness control and user settings - as a result, you can easily create an EE free image. Of course, one needs to be aware of other hardware pieces in the chain which can add EE (player settings, processors, receivers, etc.)

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Old 03-23-2009, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Yes, in addition, some displays will add edge enhancement even if the sharpness control is at a correct level. Often times it takes turning down (or off) certain parameters in the display's service menu (something you don't want to do unless you know exactly what you're doing). My previous CRT RPTV required this. On my SXRD, all EE can be controlled with the sharpness control and user settings - as a result, you can easily create an EE free image. Of course, one needs to be aware of other hardware pieces in the chain which can add EE (player settings, processors, receivers, etc.)

David, I believe we have the same set. I am one of the few that is fortunate enough not to see ringing unless I get within two feet of the A3000. I also believe the A3000 doesn't exacerbate ringing like some displays do especially projectors where the image is blown up to a larger size. I don't have the sharpness off on mine as it is at the recommended setting of 25. A setting higher than that starts to add in some anomalies.
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:54 PM
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A high end projector and large screen will certainly make it easier to see things like ringing and halos.

Generally, I have found that David and I see ringing and halos on the same titles.

We both saw halos in Little Miss Sunshine and he actually found them more obtrusive than did I. This could be due to any number of factors. He may have a better eye and can spot them more easily, he may be seeing the same ones, but they bother him more. I tend to be pretty tolerant of a fair amount of ringing and halos. Then again, he probably is, too. Who knows?

I don't think we're going to solve anything this way.

Personally, I think the best thing to do is wait for others to see the title.
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Old 03-23-2009, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

David, I believe we have the same set. I am one of the few that is fortunate enough not to see ringing unless I get within two feet of the A3000. I also believe the A3000 doesn't exacerbate ringing like some displays do especially projectors where the image is blown up to a larger size. I don't have the sharpness off on mine as it is at the recommended setting of 25. A setting higher than that starts to add in some anomalies.

Yes, we do have the same display. I have my setting at 27 although it probably will vary slightly from set to set and depend on mode setting. Of course, I keep all of those "enhancers" turned off.

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Old 03-23-2009, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsbeck View Post

A high end projector and large screen will certainly make it easier to see things like ringing and halos.

Generally, I have found that David and I see ringing and halos on the same titles.

We both saw halos in Little Miss Sunshine and he actually found them more obtrusive than did I. This could be due to any number of factors. He may have a better eye and can spot them more easily, he may be seeing the same ones, but they bother him more. I tend to be pretty tolerant of a fair amount of ringing and halos. Then again, he probably is, too. Who knows?

I don't think we're going to solve anything this way.

Personally, I think the best thing to do is wait for others to see the title.

I agree rsbeck.
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Old 03-24-2009, 01:54 AM - Thread Starter
 
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I have added an interesting article where Robert A Harris interviews Ned Price about the restoration of The Searchers. Some people mistakenly think the colors are off on this release but as this article shows their reference has been the 1991 restoration done for the Laserdisc edition and the article discusses this and why that reference is wrong.

I may add Bram Stokers Dracula to the changed significantly from theatrical presentation list. Would anyone disagree with this. ?

Opinions welcome before i either add it or not.
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Old 03-24-2009, 03:40 AM
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I may add Bram Stokers Dracula to the changed significantly from theatrical presentation list. Would anyone disagree with this. ?

I don't disagree, however, you might make note that according to Robert Harris and Coppola's assistant, these changes match the answer print and are intended.

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Old 03-24-2009, 11:39 PM
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I'm nominating Quantum of Solace. This is an outstanding looking, natural transfer.

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Old 03-25-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I may add Bram Stokers Dracula to the changed significantly from theatrical presentation list. Would anyone disagree with this. ?

Opinions welcome before i either add it or not.

I wouldn't disagree as it is technically changed from the theatrical presentation, but still approved by the director as far as I know.

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Old 03-25-2009, 12:20 PM
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I have watched Transporter 3, too and have to say that to me it looks a tad too sharp to be true and there is a very thin halo here and there that does not look natural.

I would rather say that it is not enough to keep this one off the main list but it has to be watched with zero additional enhancement applied or it starts to look nasty very fast.
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Old 03-25-2009, 12:46 PM
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I watched Transporter 3 in motion and saw some thin ringing and had the same feeling that something was wrong.

A few days later, I went to get some time stamps to share with others.

To get time stamps, I started pausing the image.

A lot of shots are on and off the screen very fast.

When pausing, I found more shots with ringing. The more I paused it seemed the more I found.

In any case, I am glad that you have confirmed that there are thin halos here and there.

Thank you.
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Old 03-25-2009, 01:08 PM
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I can't imagine ever purchasing this movie, except to maybe complete the trilogy. But I'll have to rent it now to see. My screen is only 65"(you front projection bastards), but still very revealing, so we'll see.

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