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post #1 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 03:46 AM - Thread Starter
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It came to my attention the in past few weeks that more and more BD's start surfacing without a plain old english dolby digital track. I still have a receiver with just DTS and dolby digital and I enjoy it very much. I think it's another nasty move from the studio's pushing the consumers to buy new expensive material (just like they did with 24Hz). I wish the studio would stop playing these games with consumers and respect that there are people who don't fall for these bigger is better tickets. I don't think it's worth buying into that yet, I'dd rather spent money on decent new material first.

The Water horse is only one example for the many dics without english dolby digital tracks surfacing. There is more then enough disc space to have lossless track + a dozen dolby digital tracks.

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post #2 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 05:36 AM
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There are no BDs without a standard "lossy" audio track, per se. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are both backwards compatible with SPDIF output, but you'll only experience a DD equivalent with a TrueHD track, although you'd get a boost over the SD DVD counterpart with DTS-HD MA, since the "core" track that you're actually hearing (when used over toslink or coax) is a 1.5mbps track vs. the likely 768kbps you'd hear on a DVD. Most of the titles that feature only TrueHD will simply default to a hidden DD track encoded on the disc. This was the same with Resident Evil: Extinction (hey, another SPHE title!), which is probably what happens on The Water Horse.

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post #3 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah, must say I didn't test Water Horse yet. I choose Zodiac for rental instead because I saw no mention of english dolby digital on the back side on Water Horse, only in other languages. And I see that more and more BD's don't mention english DD tracks on the covers or in reviews.

I already knew about the dts cores. I ment BD's with TrueHD track only. So you're saying that all BD's have an English DD track even when it isn't listed on the cover?

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post #4 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by kick ass sub View Post

. So you're saying that all BD's have an English DD track even when it isn't listed on the cover?


Yes, that is true. DTS or DD core soundtracks are on each BR title.

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post #5 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luigionlsd View Post

There are no BDs without a standard "lossy" audio track, per se....

Actually BD's (just like DVD's) can have a lossless LPCM track with no lossy track. Elton John - 60th Anniversary is an example of a LPCM only BD. TrueHD and DTS-MA are both optional audio formats on BD so a mandatory audio track (LPCM, DD or DTS) must be included also. Many BD's audio menu's will only have DTS-MA or TrueHD as a selection. In this case DTS-MA contains a legacy DTS core and TrueHD doesn't have a legacy core but will have a hidden legacy DD track that will be selected automatically if you don't have TrueHD support.
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post #6 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by rboster View Post

Yes, that is true. DTS or DD core soundtracks are on each BR title.

But apparently there are some BDs whose only multi-channel track is LPCM. This practice appears to be currently limited to concert discs, but it demonstrates that such a disc can find its way to market.

So it's true that you'll always get some kind of sound from a BD on legacy equipment. But it will not necessarily be simply the lossy version of the primary MCH soundtrack that you might expect.

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post #7 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Well I do hope to buy a HDMI receiver much like the Onkyo 805 by the beginning of 2010. So I hope up to then BD's without a lossy core will remain only to concert discs. First I like to buy a better subwoofer, something I think will make a MUCH more difference then upgrading to lossless audio.

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post #8 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by kick ass sub View Post

Well I do hope to buy a HDMI receiver much like the Onkyo 805 by the beginning of 2010.



Two and a half years until an HDMI receiver? If you have a player like the PS3 or Panny BD30/BD50 that decodes all codecs in the player, there are HDMI receivers for under $200 already. If you can only bitstream, fully-featured (i.e. decodes all codecs) receivers can be had for under $500.

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post #9 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 11:57 AM
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my gripe is i'm stuck with a HTIB with no DTS support (unless i use the built in DVD player then i can use DTS but over optical i'm limited to DD or 2 channel PCM)

so fox and newline releases annoy me with their lack of DD5.1 and i have to resort to the DTS-HD downmixed to 2 channel PCM (PS3 has the spare processing power needed to encode to DD5.1 but no such feature will likely ever happen)
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post #10 of 36 Old 06-25-2008, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBlacklow View Post



Two and a half years until an HDMI receiver? If you have a player like the PS3 or Panny BD30/BD50 that decodes all codecs in the player, there are HDMI receivers for under $200 already. If you can only bitstream, fully-featured (i.e. decodes all codecs) receivers can be had for under $500.

I know. But I want a receiver with decent power. I have the SVS SBS-01 speakers and hoping to upgrade to M&K speakers in a few years. But First I need a full HD projector and a new subwoofer, wich will be a much more effective upgrade then buying a new receiver or speakers

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post #11 of 36 Old 06-26-2008, 05:34 AM
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The only one I know of with no lossy multichannel track is the Elton John concert, which just has 5.1 and stereo PCM tracks.
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post #12 of 36 Old 06-26-2008, 07:21 AM
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There was at least one other one... Celine Dion? Mariah Carey? Somebody like that. There's an ancient thread here about it, but I'm to lazy to look for it.

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post #13 of 36 Old 06-26-2008, 07:25 AM
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...If you have a player like the PS3 or Panny BD30/BD50 that decodes all codecs in the player, there are HDMI receivers for under $200 already. If you can only bitstream, fully-featured (i.e. decodes all codecs) receivers can be had for under $500.

Which, as I understand it, does no good unless you also have an HDMI display. Even the upcoming Poineer Elite BR player disables audio output over HDMI if the components are being used for video.....

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post #14 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 11:44 AM
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I rented the new Planet of the Apes movie from Redbox and it had no Dolby Digital in English, just French and Spanish. The English track was DTS. Is this typical of Blu-Ray? If not what is a good source for finding out if a title has Dolby Digital in English? Thanks.
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post #15 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 02:37 PM
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Since the DTS formats are among the mandatory formats for Blu-ray Disc, titles that contain DTS-HD often don't contain the same soundtrack in Dolby Digital, but use it only for the dubs.

On top of that, DTS-HD has gained a lot of popularity with studios over Dolby TrueHD. Newer titles from Disney, Fox, Sony, Universal, Warner and so on use DTS-HD MA. Paramount seems to be the only major studio to have stuck with Dolby TrueHD from what I know, which means they have a Dolby Digital version of the main soundtrack.

BD is a bit harsh on older equipment and pretty much demands you have a receiver with support for at least legacy DTS if you want discrete 5.1 sound.

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post #16 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harley Dude View Post

I rented the new Planet of the Apes movie from Redbox and it had no Dolby Digital in English, just French and Spanish. The English track was DTS. Is this typical of Blu-Ray? If not what is a good source for finding out if a title has Dolby Digital in English?

Are you using a vintage AVR that has no DTS decoder?
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post #17 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 09:02 PM
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There are open source decoders available for TrueHD but not DTS-HD: consequently the studios have gone predominantly to DTS-HD to make it more difficult for their titles to be "pirated" and played in full quality, plus to maintain the decoding royalty system, IMO.
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post #18 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by IanD View Post

There are open source decoders available for TrueHD but not DTS-HD: consequently the studios have gone predominantly to DTS-HD to make it more difficult for their titles to be "pirated" and played in full quality, plus to maintain the decoding royalty system, IMO.

Is that why DTS is so popular with studios now?? I thought most pirates just use the core dts?

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post #19 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 10:37 PM
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Is that why DTS is so popular with studios now??

Nope.
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post #20 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 10:44 PM
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I heard something about it being faster to encode using DTS master than True HD. I think all discs should have a lossy back up track be it DTS or DD as I have experienced drop outs from both lossless formats and it is very frustrating when there is no alternate track to go to.

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post #21 of 36 Old 02-13-2012, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

I think all discs should have a lossy back up track be it DTS or DD as I have experienced drop outs from both lossless formats and it is very frustrating when there is no alternate track to go to.

They do. Just connect to the S/PDIF output in bitstream mode. Out she comes.
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post #22 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 01:34 AM
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Yea thats what I used to do before I realized I could set my player to decode the TrueHD/DTSMA lol. (was stuck with an AVR that couldn't decode the loseless files). Also Roger, I believe you worked at Dolby before? Could you explain why it seems now DTS is becoming #1? (seems like more releases). From what I've been told and from the looks of it, Dolby seems to be expanding to the video sector? (DRP)

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post #23 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Also Roger, I believe you worked at Dolby before? Could you explain why it seems now DTS is becoming #1? (seems like more releases).

As CAVX said, as far as I know. Been gone almost 4 years.
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post #24 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

They do. Just connect to the S/PDIF output in bitstream mode. Out she comes.

I know DTS HDMA lets you go back to 'core' data, but I was under the impression that Dolby TrHD didn't use a 'core' with file extensions like DTS does. So if I ever get 'glitching" again is there anyway to tell if it is the disc, the player or the format decoder? All I know is that last time this happened, I had gone from the movie to the extras, then when it resumed, it glitched (no sound) for about 3 sec every 30 to 40 seconds. Totally un-watchable.

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post #25 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

I know DTS HDMA lets you go back to 'core' data, but I was under the impression that Dolby TrHD didn't use a 'core' with file extensions like DTS does. So if I ever get 'glitching" again is there anyway to tell if it is the disc, the player or the format decoder? All I know is that last time this happened, I had gone from the movie to the extras, then when it resumed, it glitched (no sound) for about 3 sec every 30 to 40 seconds. Totally un-watchable.

There is always a 'hidden' companion Dolby Digital stream within the TrueHD stream on Blu-ray. If you have it hooked up via Optical, have bitstream selected, and select the TrueHD track.. it will bitstream that 'hidden' Dolby Digital track.

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post #26 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 11:02 AM
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Thanks for the input. If understand these posts correctly my old AVR, which only has optical inputs, will only work for Blu-Ray with Dolby TrueHD due to a hidden Dolby Digital track.

I just picked up PowerDVD and don't see any capablilty to reformat DTS into Dolby in the application so it appears a new receiver is the only option.
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post #27 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CAVX View Post

I know DTS HDMA lets you go back to 'core' data, but I was under the impression that Dolby TrHD didn't use a 'core' with file extensions like DTS does.

Structurally, the disc handles the core and lossless elements of Dolby and DTS identically. The streaming of the lossy core is also identical.

The only difference happens when outputting lossless. In TrueHD, the lossless component is the complete element needed to decode or stream via HDMI. In DTS HDMA, it needs both the lossy and lossless elements to be decoded to reconstruct the final output.

Quote:


So if I ever get 'glitching" again is there anyway to tell if it is the disc, the player or the format decoder? All I know is that last time this happened, I had gone from the movie to the extras, then when it resumed, it glitched (no sound) for about 3 sec every 30 to 40 seconds. Totally un-watchable.

If the entire movie played fine until you went to the extras, that suggests it is not a disc problem. If the glitching is heard only in the AVR but not from the player's analog outputs, that reinforces this conclusion, but it does not help determine where the glitch fault lies between the player and the AVR. If switching to internal player decoding avoids the problem, it might be a useful workaround for that disc.
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post #28 of 36 Old 02-14-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Structurally, the disc handles the core and lossless elements of Dolby and DTS identically. The streaming of the lossy core is also identical.

The only difference happens when outputting lossless. In TrueHD, the lossless component is the complete element needed to decode or stream via HDMI. In DTS HDMA, it needs both the lossy and lossless elements to be decoded to reconstruct the final output.

Thank you for clearing that up. Before I got my 1.3 HDMI equipped AVR, I am sure I was connected via Optical and could play DD and DTS surround from that connection. PCM was the only option to not allow me hear fully discrete surround, rather DPLIIx would turn on. Too long ago I guess.


Quote:


If the entire movie played fine until you went to the extras, that suggests it is not a disc problem. If the glitching is heard only in the AVR but not from the player's analog outputs, that reinforces this conclusion, but it does not help determine where the glitch fault lies between the player and the AVR. If switching to internal player decoding avoids the problem, it might be a useful workaround for that disc.

I didn't test analogue outputs for even SPDIF for that matter. I was connected using HDMI, got bored with the film and decided to go exploring, then when I came back, the discovered the audio problem. I have not even re-loaded the disc to see if the problem repeats. Thinking about it now, I will suggest it is hardware (player/decoder), not software as I have other discs that have done the same thing on an older player. The don't seem to glitch anymore since installing the new player.

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post #29 of 36 Old 02-15-2012, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Harley Dude View Post

... my old AVR, which only has optical inputs, ... reformat DTS into Dolby ... a new receiver is the only option.

???
I don't understand why you want reformat dts into DD.
Just listen to dts and you are done.
No need to buy a new receiver.
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post #30 of 36 Old 02-15-2012, 02:53 AM
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If someone only has SPDIF, then select DTS encode in the player and everything will be converted to DTS at 1536kbs. If you don't have DTS decoding, time for a new AVR with HDMI 1.3 (min).

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