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post #181 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

is it only Denon receivers that do this? i remember hearing about this issue with another title's TrueHD track, perhaps was Batman Begins, but can't remember.

Thats bizarre... could you try to remember the other title?
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post #182 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shamus View Post

??????????? On the 5308?


Greetings,

Yes..this has never been a problem with any TrueHD soundtrack. It is unclear why at this point.

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post #183 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Thats bizarre... could you try to remember the other title?

The Bourne Ultimatum HD DVD also did this for its TrueHD track, but it was Onkyo/Integra processors that I remember triggering the DRC.
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post #184 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

is it only Denon receivers that do this? i remember hearing about this issue with another title's TrueHD track, perhaps was Batman Begins, but can't remember.

Greetings,

Dave Vaughn uses an Onkyo 885 pre/pro. I am waiting to hear back from him. I am not sure about John P.


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post #185 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Dave Vaughn uses an Onkyo 885 pre/pro. I am waiting to hear back from him. I am not sure about John P.


Cheers,


Thanks for the update Ralph, and that is great news. I use an Onkyo 885 which defaults to "auto" for every TrueHD track I have played and I have to manualy change it to "off" for every TrueHD track. This is good news as it is a very simple fix

I remember comparing the BU soundtrack and prefering the DD+ as it was more dynamic to my ears and then was told by a fellow forum member about the auto default setting for DRC for TrueHD tracks that needs to be turned to off each time you fire up the processor and listen to a TrueHD track. I have not revisited BU since, but I feel confident that this will cure that particular title as well.

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post #186 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:40 PM - Thread Starter
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i take it this only effect those who bitstream? those who use ps3 or other players that decode natively and pass the decoded track to receiver as lpcm don't have this problem?
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post #187 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 View Post

i take it this only effect those who bitstream? those who use ps3 or other players that decode natively and pass the decoded track to receiver as lpcm don't have this problem?

Greetings,

I will check on that tomorrow and post back...


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post #188 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Thats bizarre... could you try to remember the other title?

Didnt the Golden Compass have audio problems with Denon Receivers? But glad everything is cleared up now.
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post #189 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

Yes..this has never been a problem with any TrueHD soundtrack. It is unclear why at this point.

Regards,

Ralph, I just looked at the 5308 online manual. It appears that setting is initially set at auto and you must be playing a TruHD track to change the setting. Is it possible it was always set to that and you didn't notice? I'll have to check my settings cause I didn't even know that feature was there.
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post #190 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 07:01 PM
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Thanks Ralph for the confirmation. What a big sigh of relief.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #191 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 07:04 PM
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After two days of struggling with the issue, I, too, found the issue to be with my Onkyo receiver. Here's what I wrote this evening in the BD review:

"...just when the soundtrack should have exhibited its most-powerful impact during big action scenes, it tended to soften up and lose some of its punch, the dynamic range seeming to become constricted. Just to be sure I wasn't hearing things, I compared several passages to the regular Dolby Digital 5.1 track on the standard-def version of the movie, and, sure enough, the SD disc had the punchier sound.

After two days of fussing with the question and talking to equally perplexed fellow reviewers, I discovered that the problem was in the way my Onkyo 705 receiver was handling this particular disc's TrueHD audio output (although the receiver has never had a problem with any other TrueHD soundtracks, a multitude of them, in this regard). The TrueHD track on "Iron Man" was apparently triggering the receiver's dynamic-range compression function. There is a button on the remote for "Late Night" listening to change it back. However, not wanting to deal with the issue if it ever cropped up again, I changed my Panasonic BD50 player's output from bitstream to PCM, thereby letting the player decode the audio rather than the receiver. Now, everything sounds fine. Indeed, "Iron Man" sounds great in TrueHD, with plenty of punch that I'm finally able to hear."

John
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post #192 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 07:59 PM
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I'm going to watch my copy tomorrow via the LG 200. I'll report back.
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post #193 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 08:06 PM
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post #194 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 08:08 PM
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IGN is on a roll. Can someone please stop them ?

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/909/909242p1.html

PQ: 7/10
SQ: 8/10

Blu-ray : 340
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post #195 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

IGN is on a roll. Can someone please stop them ?

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/909/909242p1.html

PQ: 7/10
SQ: 8/10

I'm trying to. I keep sending emails. Everyone should do the same.

So the moral of this Iron Man TrueHD track is that the PS3 really is the most dependable device for BDs? Right? I told you all Paramount's TrueHD has been super solid. Luckily they came through again.

I wonder if Transformers was doing this to people too? That would explain why so many had complaints.

BTW - Thanks for getting this one cleared up Ralph.

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

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post #196 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

IGN is on a roll. Can someone please stop them ?

http://dvd.ign.com/articles/909/909242p1.html

PQ: 7/10
SQ: 8/10

Did I read that right? They knocked three points off the PQ for grain?!? And then he goes on to call it "digital noise" in the summary. WTF is "digital noise"?

And the BD.com review mentions less grain than was seen in the theater.

One of these things is not like the other... Not that it really matters, this is a day-one purchase for me in any event.

Welcome to Rivendell, Mister Anderson.
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post #197 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John J. Puccio View Post

After two days of struggling with the issue, I, too, found the issue to be with my Onkyo receiver. Although it has no dynamic-range compression setting, the bitstreaming was, indeed, affecting the way the receiver handled it. Here is an excerpt from the newly edited Audio section of my review:

"...just when the soundtrack should have exhibited its most-powerful impact during big action scenes, it tended to soften up and lose some of its punch, the dynamic range seeming to become constricted. Just to be sure I wasn't hearing things, I compared several passages to the regular Dolby Digital 5.1 track on the standard-def version of the movie, and, sure enough, the SD disc had the punchier sound.

After two days of fussing with the question and talking to equally perplexed fellow reviewers, I discovered that the problem for me was in the way my Onkyo 705 receiver was handling this particular disc's TrueHD audio output (although the receiver has never had a problem with any other TrueHD soundtracks, a multitude of them, in this regard, this disc was apparently triggering the receiver's "Late Night" function). So, I changed my Panasonic BD50 player's output from bitstream to PCM, thereby letting the player rather than the receiver decode the audio. Now, everything sounds fine, without any further switching. Indeed, it sounds great.

It appears that if you bitstream the TrueHD soundtrack on "Iron Man" to certain receivers, like my Onkyo 705, the receiver, in its decoding process, may limit the dynamic range. Since my Panasonic BD50 allows the user to choose between bitstream or PCM, I no longer have the problem. However, if you have a player that ONLY bitstreams to a receiver that does the decoding, and you are using certain receivers like my Onkyo 705, you may encounter the issue with this particular disc, and you may have to find a different way to deal with it.

Oh, and now that I've sorted things out, there is plenty of punch in the "Iron Man" soundtrack that I'm finally able to hear."

John

Good deal John If you want to bitstream the track, all you have to do is press the "L NIGHT" button on your Onkyo remote when the TrueHD track is playing which will turn DRC "OFF" and it should sound just as good as doing a TrueHD to PCM decode in your player. When you get a minute, would you please verify that turning the DRC to OFF for TrueHD does bring this track back to life as there are many out there that can only bitstream and I am sure this will solve the problem, but if you could verify this it would put a LOT of minds to rest (mine included). Thanks again for all your efforts

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post #198 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 08:57 PM
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Where is our Dolby friend PeterTHX ?

If DTS-HD MA can come with free pops then Dolby True HD can come with DRC. Pick your poison.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #199 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 09:03 PM
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Toe,

I never want to think about this issue again. David is doing just the thing you ask about, though. He'll give you the scoop. However, I am sure the "Late Night" button will do the trick. I just don't want to have the problem crop up again (it's the first TrueHD track that has ever triggered this dynamic-range compression in my Onkyo, and I have listened to a multitude of such soundtracks that sounded great). Anyway, letting the player do the decoding solves the problem for me. For others, it's a matter of remembering to hit the "Late Night" listening button if they think the dynamics are compressed.

John
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post #200 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

Where is our Dolby friend PeterTHX ?

If DTS-HD MA can come with free pops then Dolby True HD can come with DRC. Pick your poison.

Ahhhh... the "DTS pop" or the "Dolby downgrade".
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post #201 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 09:54 PM
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Ahhhh... the "DTS pop" or the "Dolby downgrade".

Yeah, one may destroy your speakers and the other won't work them enough.
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post #202 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 09:59 PM
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I'm not sure if I'll get a chance to check it tonight, but I plan on watching the movie again tomorrow morning. I only made it 1/2 of the way through last night, but was coming off a 15 hour work day and I was exhausted and unfortunately today is no different. I just got home from work about 20 minutes ago and am ready to go to sleep. Rest assured, I'll get to this tomorrow at the latest. John, Ralph, and I have exchanged a bunch of emails and phone calls the last couple of days to resolve this before the disc streets. I'm glad that Ralph and Paramount worked things out.

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post #203 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John J. Puccio View Post

Toe,

I never want to think about this issue again. David is doing just the thing you ask about, though. He'll give you the scoop. However, I am sure the "Late Night" button will do the trick. I just don't want to have the problem crop up again (it's the first TrueHD track that has ever triggered this dynamic-range compression in my Onkyo, and I have listened to a multitude of such soundtracks that sounded great). Anyway, letting the player do the decoding solves the problem for me. For others, it's a matter of remembering to hit the "Late Night" listening button if they think the dynamics are compressed.

John

Sounds good John and I totaly understand Glad you guys got it figured out and I look forward to David's findings, especialy since he has the same pre/pro as me.

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post #204 of 1219 Old 09-12-2008, 11:42 PM
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OK, I just tested it out, to be sure. If you're bitstreaming the TrueHD audio out of the BD player to an Onkyo receiver like mine (705), and you press the "Late Night" button on the Onkyo receiver remote, it does, indeed, turn on or off the dynamic-range compression. I have never had a problem with frequency compression before with TrueHD, so I don't know why this particular disc triggers it in the Onkyo. According the manual, the "Late Night" function's default for TrueHD is "Auto," where it automatically sets it. Apparently, my receiver has always set it automatically for "Off" in the past, but not this time. I dunno.

The problem is, I don't use the receiver remote. I keep it in a drawer tucked away. I use a Harmony One universal remote, and I would have to program in that extra "Late Night" function. It's all too much of a chore for me, so letting the player do the decoding works just fine. Interestingly, though, my Panasonic BD50's audio output in PCM (letting the player do the decoding) is about 5 db lower than the bitstream output. Fortunately, the Onkyo has an "Intellivolume" function that allows for adding more or fewer db to each device connected to it in order to even up the volume among all components. I guess it all works out.

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post #205 of 1219 Old 09-13-2008, 12:03 AM
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John,

Same thing here with the 885 pre/pro. Toggling the "night mode" to "off" fixes the problem and the audio sounds as it should. This is the first disc that seems to have this problem as well, but I'm going to test the HD DVD of Phantom of the Opera to see if the audio is improved on that disc as well.

Personally I think Paramount messed up a "default" setting in the encoder, since like you, this is the first I have had this issue with any Blu-ray's. At least Ralph and Paramount were able to figure out what happened.

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post #206 of 1219 Old 09-13-2008, 02:13 AM
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I have an Onkyo 605 with the PS3 as my BD player. Being that I am having the player decode the TrueHD track will I have this DRC issue ?? or is it only with Bitstreaming to the Receiver that DRC is turned on.??
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post #207 of 1219 Old 09-13-2008, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John J. Puccio View Post

According the manual, the "Late Night" function's default for TrueHD is "Auto," where it automatically sets it.

Just as a little technical clarification: the "Auto" setting on Onkyo receivers means that the receiver will activate DRC if the metadata contained in the TrueHD track tell it to do so. "On" and "Off" cause the receiver to ignore the TrueHD metadata and force DRC on or off.

Why Paramount chose to set the DRC flag in the metadata on this disc I don't know. This feature is meant mostly for broadcast use, where is allows reduction of the dynamic range with less quality loss than if the sender does the compression. On BDs, setting the flag doesn't make much sense IMO.
Quote:
Apparently, my receiver has always set it automatically for "Off" in the past, but not this time. I dunno.

The default is "Auto". The Onkyo receivers revert back to the default everytime they go to standby. Note that you only see the TrueHD setting while playing back a TrueHD track! Otherwise you only see the general setting that applies to other audio formats.
Quote:
Interestingly, though, my Panasonic BD50's audio output in PCM (letting the player do the decoding) is about 5 db lower than the bitstream output. Fortunately, the Onkyo has an "Intellivolume" function that allows for adding more or fewer db to each device connected to it in order to even up the volume among all components. I guess it all works out

Note that using the player for decoding is not necessarily a solution in all cases, since the player may be configured to obey the TrueHD DRC flag as well. E.g., the Toshiba HD DVD players have the same three settings as the Onkyo receivers (they don't revert to "Auto" on their own though). So, if you switch your player to PCM output, also check whether it has a DRC setting for TruehD.
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post #208 of 1219 Old 09-13-2008, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

I just hung up with the design team at Paramount. I have been speaking with them over the past 24 hours regarding this issue. The issue has been identified and addressed in my case.

For whatever reason the TrueHD audio stream was activating the DRC circuit in my processor. It went from Off to Auto which was causing the problem. While the signal was being sent to the processor I had to go in and manually turn it off.

Of course that brought this incredible soundtrack to life. I am happy to report that this has been cleared up.

I have reached out to John and David to let them know.


Look for my review soon...


Cheers,


just curious Ralph did Transformers also have DRC circuit activated?
It will be intresting to know if it did.

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post #209 of 1219 Old 09-13-2008, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
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just curious Ralph did Transformers also have DRC circuit activated?
It will be intresting to know if it did.

Greetings,

This was not an issue with the Transformers BD Frank. Auto is the default setting which has been fine for other TrueHD soundtracks. It appears as though this particular disc's TrueHD track contains a flag that is activating the DRC circuitry. It only seems to occur when using the TrueHD track. I would say that everyone should keep this in mind so that once they receive their copies they will have an avenue if there is an issue.

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post #210 of 1219 Old 09-13-2008, 04:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

Ralph, I just looked at the 5308 online manual. It appears that setting is initially set at auto and you must be playing a TruHD track to change the setting. Is it possible it was always set to that and you didn't notice? I'll have to check my settings cause I didn't even know that feature was there.

Greetings,

shamus, Auto is the default setting which is fine. In reality you should never have to go in and change it. In this instance the TrueHD soundtrack is triggering it and turning it on.

And yes, that particular menu option is not available until your are sending an active signal like this to the receiver. It is under the Surround Parameters menu, in the Audio submenu.

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