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post #61 of 80 Old 03-20-2014, 06:13 PM
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Sorry I didn't intend to miss-lead anyone with false information. From my prospective I didn't believe there was any reason for an anamorphic feature in Blu-ray otherwise the studios would include it. I am still not sure what the benefit would be? I have read an anamorphic lens on a front projector will eliminate the black bars on 2:35 x 1 Blu-ray/DVD's. I don't own a front projector so I can't verify that information. But that is a projector feature nothing to do with Blu-rays.

I own many region 2 DVD's and have never experienced the jutter and panning you quote. Listed below is information for World Import about a Phillips region-Free Blu-ray player that includes a "Real Time Video Converter". That is what I was referring to when I said I own many region 2 DVD's and have never experienced jutter or panning. What is jutter and panning anyways?

Region Free DVD Player - Plays DVDs from regions 0-6 PAL or NTSCPlays Blu Rays from Region A Only - See full speficiations to find what countries are region A.Has built-in Real Time Video Converter so it works on any TV! DivX Plus HD Certified for high definition DivX playbackDVD video upscaling to 1080p via HDMI for near-HD imagesSubtitle Shift for widescreen without any missing subtitles Hear moreDolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA for HD 7.1 surround sound Engage moreUSB 2.0 plays video/music from USB flash/hard disk driveBD-Live (Profile 2.0) to enjoy online Blu-ray bonus contentAvailable with world wide dual voltage also.



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post #62 of 80 Old 03-21-2014, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernie6 View Post

Sorry I didn't intend to miss-lead anyone with false information.

 

You didn't. Nitpicking is just Josh's way of warming up to folks. :)


I agree with most of your comments btw. I think the CIH folks are just lamenting the general lack of resolution in the content for their displays, which is typically around 1920x800 pixels for a 2.40 ratio Blu-ray. They'd like the extra 280 or so pixels of vertical resolution in the Blu-ray format to count for something on their setups, which is understandable.


There are other ways to go than an anamorphic Blu-ray format though. A 4K projector with a good scaler is one possible solution. A UHD format (with square pixels) is another.


I think human vision is actually more sensitive to horizontal detail/resolution than vertical resolution. That's why analog CRTs were designed with the scanlines running horizontally across the screen rather than vertically. The vertical resolution of an analog SD CRT was limited to the number of scanlines (~500 lines interlaced on NTSC TVs). But the horizontal resolution was potentially unlimited.


So imho, an anamorphic format that bumps up the vertical resolution of scoped content is sort of barking up the wrong tree.


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post #63 of 80 Old 03-21-2014, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

So imho, an anamorphic format that bumps up the vertical resolution of scoped content is sort of barking up the wrong tree.
I respectfully disagree. biggrin.gif More resolution in every direction is welcome.
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post #64 of 80 Old 03-21-2014, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernie6 View Post

I own many region 2 DVD's and have never experienced the jutter and panning you quote.

I assume you mean Region 2 Europe and not Region 2 Japan. Europe is a PAL territory. PAL video does not have judder, but it does have speedup. NTSC video has judder in order to avoid the speedup issue.

What I mean by "judder" in NTSC is that the picture has a herky-jerky stuttering during motion. It really only stands out in shots where the camera pans from side to side.
Quote:
Listed below is information for World Import about a Phillips region-Free Blu-ray player that includes a "Real Time Video Converter". That is what I was referring to when I said I own many region 2 DVD's and have never experienced jutter or panning. What is jutter and panning anyways?

All the "video converter" refers to is that the DVD player can convert PAL to NTSC for display on your American TV, or vice versa.

4% speedup is an inherent trait of PAL video, and it remains even after converting to NTSC. The speed is a subtle difference you may not notice by eye, but it also causes the audio pitch to shift. This can be especially noticeable in actors' voices, which often sound like they've been huffing helium. Some people are more sensitive to this than others. Viewers from Europe who were raised watching PAL video their whole lives tend not to notice.

(Likewise, viewers raised in the U.S. tend not to notice the judder.)

All of this refers to the DVD format. Blu-ray video is encoded at 24 frames per second, the same speed that movies are photographed at, and does not have either judder or speedup issues when played back at the same rate.

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post #65 of 80 Old 03-21-2014, 10:46 AM
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Josh thanks for all the good information. Yes all of the DVD Region 2 are from Europe I mostly purchase from Amazon.uk. The region B Blu-ray I have been buying from Amazon.uk, Amazon.de and Amazon.fr. Blu-ray from France can be a problem they normally don't include a shut off for the English subtitles. When you select the English audio track the English subtitles also appear.
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post #66 of 80 Old 03-21-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernie6 View Post

Blu-ray from France can be a problem they normally don't include a shut off for the English subtitles. When you select the English audio track the English subtitles also appear.

I have a couple discs like this. OPPO Blu-ray players have a feature where you can shift the position of subtitles up or down on the screen. When watching a disc with forced subtitles that I don't want to see, I can actually shift them down right off the screen. They're still there, but I don't see them.

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post #67 of 80 Old 03-21-2014, 01:14 PM
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That is a neat feature may give me a reason to upgrade to an OPPO. Is it best to buy one from 220 Electronics that has been modified for Region-Free play A-B-C?
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post #68 of 80 Old 03-24-2014, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ernie6 View Post

That is a neat feature may give me a reason to upgrade to an OPPO. Is it best to buy one from 220 Electronics that has been modified for Region-Free play A-B-C?

The region mods for OPPO players are typically very easy to install yourself (no soldering). You'll probably save a lot of money to buy the player at regular price and the mod separately.

Just remember to reset the subtitle position when you're done watching the disc with forced subs, or they won't show up when you watch another disc where you actually want to see the subs.

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post #69 of 80 Old 03-24-2014, 05:10 PM
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Some of the higher end Panasonic decks can also do subtitle shifting.
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post #70 of 80 Old 03-25-2014, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Interesting.

Didn't even know these were available in larger sizes, but it looks like Philips and Vizio have released a couple 21:9 LCD/LEDs in larger sizes (~58"). Philips apparently discontinued their 21:9 models due to the lack of demand though.

It also looks like a couple mfrs were showing even larger (~100") 21:9 wrap-around direct-views at CES.

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As far as the content is concerned, I don't really see why an anamorphic 21:9 format with non-square pixels would be necessary or preferable, now that everything is digital. A widescreen 21:9 UHD format with a square pixel aspect should be very doable. Ideally it would map 1:1 on a 21:9 UHD display with the same native resolution as the content.

Both Philips and Vizio have abandoned "21:9" screens for now. Philips had several models in Europe with sizes of 50", 56" and 58" from 2009 to 2011, and Vizio had one 58" model in 2012 in the US. LG and others currently have 29" computer displays with HDMI inputs. All of these feature a panel resolution of 2560x1080, resulting in a 64:27 aspect ratio. This is 4:3 to the third power (16:9 is 4:3 squared). This 64:27 aspect ratio (or 2:37:1) matches nicely with 'scope movies, which were 2:35:1 until the 1970's and 2.39:1 after that.

The latest version of the CEA 861 specification, which defines video timings for HDMI 1.4 and 2.0, defines 64:27 modes, either as anamorphic 1920x1080 frames, or a "native" 2560x1080p.

The 105" LG and (was it Samsung?) at CES had a "5K" resolution of 5120x2160, which is the UHD equivalent of the 64:27 modes (Normal 4K TVs are 3840x2160). I am very curious if this experiment translates to new "21:9" TVs in smaller sizes, maybe even a "5K" TV in the 60" range?

Having anamorphic 64:27 content in 1920x1080p on Blu-rays would be a great feature for 'scope movies. Not only will this give people with "21:9" displays 33% more pixels, but it would also allow consumers with 16:9 TV to choose between a "letterboxed" and "Pan-and-scan" presentation of these widescreen movies. Not that I would condone such a feature, but apparently a lot of people do not like the black bars...
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post #71 of 80 Old 03-25-2014, 11:01 PM
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Quote:

Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post


Both Philips and Vizio have abandoned "21:9" screens for now. Philips had several models in Europe with sizes of 50", 56" and 58" from 2009 to 2011, and Vizio had one 58" model in 2012 in the US. LG and others currently have 29" computer displays with HDMI inputs. All of these feature a panel resolution of 2560x1080, resulting in a 64:27 aspect ratio. This is 4:3 to the third power (16:9 is 4:3 squared). This 64:27 aspect ratio (or 2:37:1) matches nicely with 'scope movies, which were 2:35:1 until the 1970's and 2.39:1 after that.

The latest version of the CEA 861 specification, which defines video timings for HDMI 1.4 and 2.0, defines 64:27 modes, either as anamorphic 1920x1080 frames, or a "native" 2560x1080p.
 

 

Interesting info, scarabaeus. Tks for sharin.
 

Quote:
The 105" LG and (was it Samsung?) at CES had a "5K" resolution of 5120x2160, which is the UHD equivalent of the 64:27 modes (Normal 4K TVs are 3840x2160). I am very curious if this experiment translates to new "21:9" TVs in smaller sizes, maybe even a "5K" TV in the 60" range?

 

Samsung just announced it's new lineup, which is supposed to include a 105" 21:9 display with 11 million pixels (5K), that could run as much as 3 figures...

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1523895/samsung-announces-2014-tv-lineup

 

"Samsung’s 105” Curved UHD TV - Thanks to its significant 105-inch size, beautifully curved design and movie-theater aspect ratio, this TV offers the ultimate cinema-quality experience in the living room. With a cinematic 21 x 9 aspect ratio, everything will look better on this immersive 105” UHD TV which boasts a spectacular display with 11 million pixels. The Samsung’s 105” Curved UHD TV will be available in the second half of the year."

 

Quote:
Having anamorphic 64:27 content in 1920x1080p on Blu-rays would be a great feature for 'scope movies. Not only will this give people with "21:9" displays 33% more pixels, but it would also allow consumers with 16:9 TV to choose between a "letterboxed" and "Pan-and-scan" presentation of these widescreen movies. Not that I would condone such a feature, but apparently a lot of people do not like the black bars...

 

The pan/scan idea is interesting (esp. for new plasma owners trying to break in their TVs ;) ). I wonder if support for something like that could be added to current players with a firmware update?

 

I can't really envision 2560x1080 or anamorphic 1920x1080p taking hold in a physical format though, when there's already UHD content available. 2.5K might be an attractive option for streaming on 21:9 computer displays though.


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post #72 of 80 Old 03-26-2014, 04:43 AM
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Quote:
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Samsung just announced it's new lineup, which is supposed to include a 105" 21:9 display with 11 million pixels (5K), that could run as much as 3 figures...

Where do I sign up!!?? biggrin.gif

I'm still on my first bulb on my Epson 8350 and I assume that the Epson will continue to function long into its second bulb, but I have decided that the next display in the theater will be 4K (unless the Epson lives long enough to see 8K). That being said, a direct-view 105"+ 4K scope display would be a satisfying replacement. At 105" I'd lose about 18" of vertical height compared to my current setup, but I think I could live with it.
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post #73 of 80 Old 03-26-2014, 02:52 PM
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Just found this post by John Schuermann in another forum, he confirms that the upcoming "UHD" version of the Blu-Ray spec supports anamorphic as well:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436729/anamorphic-encoded-blu-rays-on-the-horizon/120#post_24246758

Yay!
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post #74 of 80 Old 03-26-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Quote:
I can't really envision 2560x1080 or anamorphic 1920x1080p taking hold in a physical format though, when there's already UHD content available. 2.5K might be an attractive option for streaming on 21:9 computer displays though.

Anamorphic makes sense for 3840x2160p, too. Has just the same benefits for 'scope content as with 1920x1080p.

Maybe an "idiot feature" (appealing to the masses) of pan-and-scan for 2.40:1 movies will get studios to release movies in anamorphic, and us CIH people will be happy.
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post #75 of 80 Old 03-27-2014, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post


Anamorphic makes sense for 3840x2160p, too. Has just the same benefits for 'scope content as with 1920x1080p.

Maybe an "idiot feature" (appealing to the masses) of pan-and-scan for 2.40:1 movies will get studios to release movies in anamorphic, and us CIH people will be happy.

 

Can't really see this happenin in physical media... at least not in meaningful numbers. I can see more value in a scoped 5K format (with square pixels) since that would map 1:1 or 4:1 on current 21:9 displays, and also 1:1 on current 16:9 UHD displays with some cropping on the sides.


Current/future 4K UHD media (w/square pixels) might also look pretty good anamorphically scaled-down on a 2K projector. That would actually put more control in the user's hands than a hard-coded 2K anamorphic format, and might be a useful interim solution for those who don't want to upgrade to 4K/5K PJs right away.


Anamorphic widescreen SD media made sense because there was more potential resolution being lost on 4:3 letterboxed content, and the 720x480 resolution of SD-DVDs was a closer match to the ratio of 16:9 TVs. The benefits (to most users) of an anamorphic HD or UHD format would be less tangible, and harder to justify imho.


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post #76 of 80 Old 03-28-2014, 05:10 AM
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I say we try it and find out. wink.gif
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post #77 of 80 Old 03-28-2014, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
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I say we try it and find out. wink.gif
Why not just encode content that is wider than 1.78:1 in a wider format with square pixels at 2160p with that added to the new UHDTV formats (next gen Blu-ray specs etc), then it should be better for everyone in theory. Shouldn't it be the most efficient way of encoding it as well as the simplest and should be capable of a higher res/better picture than a 2.35-2.40:1 video encoded anamorphically into 3840x2160? And encode it in the better colour res that should be in the next gen (Blu-ray etc.) format rather than trying to fit it into current 8 bit video with dithering/other ways of trying to hide the extra colour info (which is probably much less efficient bitrate-wise as well as may affect current players PQ and may not give the full colour range that just using the next gen format should).
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post #78 of 80 Old 03-28-2014, 11:21 PM
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Pretty much agree with everything you just said, Joe. What you're talking about is a 5K or 5120x2160 pixel format.


That should be the native rez of Samsung and LG's new 105" ~21:9 displays. And it wouldn't surprise me if it became the new standard for high-resolution CIH projection as well, because it has the potential advantage of being able to map both ~21:9 5K or 16:9 4K UHD content at 1:1.


An approach like that could effectively standardize the vertical resolution of all video content (up to a ratio of 2.37:1) at 2160 pixels, which is the dream of most CIH users. Theatrical content with a 1.85 ratio would have to be released in 5K though (or some other variant of 2160p) to stay true to the 2160 pixel rule.


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post #79 of 80 Old 03-28-2014, 11:45 PM
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These are the current DCI resolution standards for digital projection in movie theaters btw, in case anyone's interested...

 

Quote:

2048x1080 (2K) at 24 frame/s or 48 frame/s, or 4096x2160 (4K) at 24 frame/s

  • In 2K, for Scope (2.39:1) presentation 2048x858 pixels of the imager is used
  • In 2K, for Flat (1.85:1) presentation 1998x1080 pixels of the imager is used
  • In 4K, for Scope (2.39:1) presentation 4096x1716 pixels of the imager is used
  • In 4K, for Flat (1.85:1) presentation 3996x2160 pixels of the imager is used

 

Current 4K theatrical projectors have a native resolution of 4096x2160 pixels, which is ~17:9 ratio.


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post #80 of 80 Old 03-29-2014, 03:45 PM
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Would appreciate hearing any of your thoughts here...

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1524904/cph-constant-pixel-height-video-formats


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