Dark City comparison *PIX* - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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So what's next? Two classic war movies, a recent Oscar Best picture nominee and modern Sci-fi classic. All neutered from what should have been a major upgrade worthy of the phrase " . . . the Ultimate High Definition Experience" (sic). Well most high definition titles are worthy. But excessive manipulation of the picture to cater and satisfy them make this all worthless. Why for the love of Allah you ******* ** ***** hide the details that's otherwise present in the movie on a 1080p format? WHY?!?

Its true that a majority of HD release are a substantial upgrade over the SD DVD but that is not an excuse if you make it look the movie is inhabited by wax mannequins with halos or "force fields" all throughout. Just like the CGI animation I see from the video game I play. Clean and smooth.

I don't think I need to tell how disappointed I am when reports start trickling in about the excessive DNR used. Ok, fine maybe its not too bad. Then screenshots from DVDbeaver went online and right away I see the movie is "Pattonized". For two weeks people asserted that the "screenshots can't be trusted" or "screenshots doesn't not represent the PQ of the movie" or "No waiii dat pixie is photochopped to make it look worse!". Well to those people watching this movie right now (assuming your viewing set is calibrated ) what do you see? Does it match? or your TV has some magical powers to add fine detail to all HD releases. You did not have your sharpness setting set to 10 did you?

Ok back to this piece of . . . err I mean Blu-ray disc. There are two versions , The Director's Cut and the Theatrical Cut. And YES there is a difference in overall PQ. But I will deal with that later in the thread There is no seamless branching. The disc is structured just like the Golden Compass and I Am Legend. As far as the DTS-HD MA sound, its excellent. Outstanding. As usual.

I am not alone with what some called a "crusade" against DNR and EE. Let me correct you with that, WE have a "crusade" against Excessive DNR and EE. Even after all the arguments against these manipulations on films there are still some that just don't understand what is the big deal. It is better than DVD so what is the frakking problem? Let me show you:



'nuff said? Need to see more?


Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
Dark City: TC                                                   VC-1    1:40:29 19,710,339,072  45,528,093,014  26.15   18.09   DTS-HD Master 5.1 6046Kbps (48kHz/24-bit) DTS 2.0 256Kbps (48kHz/24-bit)


DISC INFO:

Disc Size:      45,528,093,014 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:           00021.mpls
Size:           19,710,339,072 bytes
Length:         1:40:29 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:  26.15 Mbps
Description:    

FILES:

Name            Size            Length          Time In         Time Out        
----            ----            ------          -------         --------        
00045.M2TS      19,710,339,072  1:40:29.064     0:00:00.000     1:40:29.064     

VIDEO:

Codec               Bitrate         Description     
-----               -------         -----------     
VC-1 Video          18092 kbps      1080p / 23.976fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 3

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         6046 kbps       5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 6046kbps (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 1536kbps)
DTS Audio                       English         256 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 256kbps
DTS Audio                       English         256 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 256kbps



Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
Dark City:DC                                                    VC-1    1:51:43 21,823,856,640  45,528,093,014  26.04   17.83   DTS-HD Master 5.1 5913Kbps (48kHz/24-bit) DTS 2.0 256Kbps (48kHz/24-bit)


DISC INFO:

Disc Size:      45,528,093,014 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        No

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:           00019.mpls
Size:           21,823,856,640 bytes
Length:         1:51:43 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:  26.04 Mbps
Description:    

FILES:

Name            Size            Length          Time In         Time Out        
----            ----            ------          -------         --------        
00043.M2TS      21,823,856,640  1:51:43.738     0:00:00.000     1:51:43.738     

VIDEO:

Codec               Bitrate         Description     
-----               -------         -----------     
VC-1 Video          17830 kbps      1080p / 23.976fps / 16:9 / Advanced Profile 3

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         5913 kbps       5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 5913kbps (DTS Core: 5.1 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 1536kbps)
DTS Audio                       English         256 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 256kbps
DTS Audio                       English         256 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 256kbps
DTS Audio                       English         256 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 24-bit / 256kbps
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post #2 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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This two sets are the only ones I will include the DVD.

Note: The DVD versions are NOT the benchmark here anymore. Its how the movie is faithfully transferred to the disc.

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post #3 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The transfer is atrocious. Jennifer's face has no definition. Keifer's too. The image is "dead". The DNR is just so overbearing. I can't see any positive attribute to the overall PQ. A modern Sci-Fi classic finally to be seen and enjoyed in full high definition 1080p.

Except the definition is missing. Despicable.
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post #5 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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post #6 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I need to get some HD shots of Jennifer from other titles. Any recommendations? Preferably same AR.
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post #7 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:24 PM
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Refresh-refresh-refresh
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post #8 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:50 PM
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Wax City?
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post #9 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 05:56 PM
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Can we get this out of the way right now?

Person A: "Wow, it looks so much better than the DVD!!! Why are you complaining?"
Person B: "It doesn't look like film and we should demand better."
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post #10 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 06:02 PM
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What about:

Person C: "It doesn't look good but I'll put up with it."
Person D: "This looks as great as Patton!"

Okay, I made up that last one. Let's not go nuts.
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post #11 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 09:07 PM
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Xylon is such a tease

Back off man, I'm a scientist.
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post #12 of 365 Old 07-28-2008, 09:40 PM
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While you guys wait, hers some comparisons, just make sure you click on the "hier" button:
http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleich...eich=dark_city
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post #13 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 12:38 AM
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what's with these reserved threads?
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post #14 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 08:10 AM
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Based on the capture comparisons already out there I have a few conclusions:

the jump over the dvd is huge, obviously

the HD version is waxed and EEed but it varies from shot to shot. Some shots are passable and some are approaching Patton territory with clay-like textures. Those with highly revealing 1080p setups are going to be the most disappointed.
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post #15 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 10:31 AM
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Xylon, are you going to do any comparsions between the DC and TC on the Blu-ray? Apparently 2 encodes on the disc because the DC features new color timing (why do they always take the brown out? ex. Blade Runner, Matrix), while the TC retains the original.

Could be the theatrical cut is less digitally massaged in other ways too? I haven't looked at it yet because I didn't realize there were going to be such differences.

The DC looks good, but I was surprised how clean it looked. Doesn't seem all that detailed, but not waxy either, though I don't have the biggest screen around. Something along the lines of Batman Begins. And I thought the coloring was a little different, but not jarring at least. Still, I missed the browns, much just like when the re-did Matrix and Blade Runner.

Might be interesting to see if the less tweaked version is actually a more detailed image.

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post #16 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 10:35 AM
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I'm hoping to watch this straight through tonight (rental, of couse) but likely won't be able to until tomorrow night or maybe even Thursday. I'm wondering what's up with the music scroe as far as changes.

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post #17 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Review will go up tonight. Sorry for the delay. I did not realize there are two versions in the disc. I need to check them both for accuracy.
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post #18 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 12:15 PM
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Both versions should have the same color timing because both are from the same transfer/master. The extra material was just spliced in.
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post #19 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Based on the capture comparisons already out there I have a few conclusions:

the jump over the dvd is huge, obviously

the HD version is waxed and EEed but it varies from shot to shot. Some shots are passable and some are approaching Patton territory with clay-like textures. Those with highly revealing 1080p setups are going to be the most disappointed.

After viewing the BD, I would agree with that assessment. The degree of perceived edge enhancement and noise reduction can vary greatly throughout. Unfortunately, the image is caked with DNR more often than not.
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post #20 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Both versions should have the same color timing because both are from the same transfer/master. The extra material was just spliced in.

Really? This review says otherwise:
http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/darkcitybluray.php

And two encodes would account for the relatively low bitrates I observed when watching the DC.

Also, aren't the sound options different for each cut? Like 7.1 lossless only on the DC?

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post #21 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Here you go guys. Just to hold some over until I'm done with the proper screenshots. If it walks like duck, talks like a duck . . . . . . .






I think I may have saved some of you gas money
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post #22 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

I think I may have saved some of you some gas money

Nope I ordered mine from Amazon

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post #23 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_6 View Post

Nope I ordered mine from Amazon

Party pooper
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post #24 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_6 View Post

Nope I ordered mine from Amazon

i think he meant it as for those who were gonna drive to the nearby store to buy it. after seeing those screenshots i think some will decide not to buy.

i'm no expert, but there was no detail on the guy's face in that shot at all. never seen the movie but heard a bunch of praises on it, will give it a rent.
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post #25 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 02:00 PM
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The bitrate graphic is disappointing (and snazzy! Xylon, hook me up ). Is seamless branching that hard to do on Blu-ray?

Poor Murdoch looks like he came out of a painting. Why do the truly great movies get such crappy treatment? Where's that Robert Harris quote...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post

To be clear, I'm not stating that there may not be missing detail on Dark City.

There has definitely been image manipulation.

What I am stating is that if there is, the film has not been plasticized, and nothing horrific has occurred.

Then he actually watched it and it went to Level Two on his list. Good stuff.
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post #26 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo88 View Post

Xylon, are you going to do any comparsions between the DC and TC on the Blu-ray? Apparently 2 encodes on the disc because the DC features new color timing (why do they always take the brown out? ex. Blade Runner, Matrix), while the TC retains the original.

Yes
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post #27 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 02:06 PM
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What are we going to do about this, for real. The Patton thing sucked, but this just makes me all out furious.
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post #28 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 02:08 PM
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I got this today in the Borders 40% bunch, since I sold my DVD copy years ago...and at least the sound should sound good if not great. I figured why not? Maybe New Line will get the message about not using DNR and save some time/money on the processing and we'll get replacements.
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post #29 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

The bitrate graphic is disappointing (and snazzy! Xylon, hook me up ). Is seamless branching that hard to do on Blu-ray?

I kind of like the idea of preserving the original color timing, since I'm not a fan of revisionist color timing, but it's ashame to make it be at the cost of a lower bitrate. Would be better to use separate discs, but maybe you need higher profile titles, like Blade Runner.

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post #30 of 365 Old 07-29-2008, 02:16 PM
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yeah, that's one of the problems. even a crappy transfer like this still beats out the best dvd, so many ppl who loved the film will still buy it. same goes for all other films, i'm sure there are plenty of people upgrading their DVD of Gangs of NY to BD.
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