The Descent - 2 different Blu-ray versions CONFIRMED (MPEG-2 vs AVC encoding) - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 01:25 PM - Thread Starter
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WOW! Thanks for the fast response and pics, Whiggles!

Not at all what I expected. So much for a nice, fair codec comparison. The Descent has been Warner'd! What numbnuts at Lionsgate thought this was a good idea? It does look "cheerier" with the jacked up colors and contrast I guess.

Miami Vice has nothing on this one. They did this so right and then re-did it so wrong...

I think part of the difference in color is because your setup is doing BT.601 conversion instead of BT.709 but there's still a massive difference even if I use BT.601 and compare to your caps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

\\BDMV\\STREAM: 00002.m2ts, 00022.m2ts, 00024.m2ts, 00025.m2ts, and 00030.m2ts have different file sizes and dates.

Forgot to mention. 00002, 00024, and 00025 are the movie itself sans PiP. 00022 is actually the menu video (the background - all of the text is overlayed dynamically), and it's MPEG-2 on my disc. 00030 is a 0-second MPEG-2 that appears to just be 1 or 2 frames of nothing but black.
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post #62 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 02:09 PM - Thread Starter
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For completeness, here's the same frames from the burned-in PiP encode. Perhaps Whiggles can edit them into his post.

[EDIT: And now he has, so go there ]

Not sure how to explain the brightness variations as it seems to change around with each frame, and the colors are confusing too. But to be sure, the high frequency filtering wasn't applied to this lower bitrate encode! Lionsgate is weird.

I tried taking some photos of the case/disc so we could look for differences but I have no idea how to set the exposure so that the flash doesn't bloom everything into white. Does the AVC disc also say "20593.1.A" in between "Widescreen" and "Region 1" in the text on the bottom? Just curious if the 1 or A have any significance or are just referring to region coding.
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post #63 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Does the AVC disc also say "20593.1.A" in between "Widescreen" and "Region 1" in the text on the bottom? Just curious if the 1 or A have any significance or are just referring to region coding.

Yeah, the AVC does say that (Just checked my disc).
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post #64 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 07:47 PM
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The version with the burned in PIP window looks BETTER than the one without (on the MPEG 2 only disc). That's just sick!

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post #65 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

The AVC is clearly superior with some fine grain which should be there.....I thought the MPEG2 looked great but the AVC blows it away from those screenshots from my fellow scotsman.

Crikey. How do you know which version you'll get?
Are there different sku numbers?
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post #66 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 08:31 PM
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This is the reason why people have preferences over codecs. It's very clear that the AVC beats MPEG-2 and it's a shame on Lionsgate to switch the versions.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #67 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Does the AVC disc also say "20593.1.A" in between "Widescreen" and "Region 1" in the text on the bottom? Just curious if the 1 or A have any significance or are just referring to region coding.

That is exactly what my disc says and I feel the PQ is amazing. I do not have the ability to check the codec though. Anyone with the MPEG 2 version care to look at what number is on their disc?
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post #68 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 08:58 PM
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The AVC disc I have here reads:

Cat No. 20593 Widescreen 20593.1.A Region 1 US Unrated ...

Flip the disc over and the text on the inner rings reads:

BVDL-004320A1 1 (outer ring) and
BVDL-004320B1 2 (inner ring)

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post #69 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyris View Post

The AVC disc I have here reads:

Cat No. 20593 Widescreen 20593.1.A Region 1 US Unrated ...

Flip the disc over and the text on the inner rings reads:

BVDL-004320A1 1 (outer ring) and
BVDL-004320B1 2 (inner ring)

When I flip my disc over it says:
BVDL-004320A1 3
BVDL-004320B1 5
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post #70 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 11:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure where you guys are looking but if I shine light through the MPEG-2 disc and look reaaal close at the data side I find alphanumeric codes, barcodes, and Blu-ray logos etched into the two lighter silver-colored rings adjacent to the white silk screen backing.

Inner ring: [Blu-ray logo] LY02 M5 020593.1.B VD04
Outer ring (written backwards!): [Blu-ray logo] LY01 M5 020593.1.A VD06

But FoxyMulder previously gave the "BVDL" codes for his MPEG-2 copy (without mentioning the numbers at the very end). I'm really confused, and now my eyes hurt. Thanks guys.

As far as the packaging: the case is an Elite with the shiny etched Blu-ray logo, there's no quote on the front cover, UPC is 031398205937 with a smaller barcode of 80 to the right, the see-through art is Sarah coming up from the ground on the left pane with the Blu-ray logo and "beyond high definition" on the right pane, and there are 2 inserts.

Did both of these come with the disc originally, lgans? There's the regular foldout Crank, etc. advertisement but in addition to that a 1-leaf "Also Available" ad for Saw IV, etc. copyright 2008. Which obviously doesn't make much sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lgans316 View Post

This is the reason why people have preferences over codecs. It's very clear that the AVC beats MPEG-2 and it's a shame on Lionsgate to switch the versions.

I agree but the main reason the movie MPEG-2 is so much worse than the AVC is due to filtering. The PiP-burned MPEG-2 is proof of that.
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post #71 of 793 Old 09-13-2008, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Crikey. How do you know which version you'll get?
Are there different sku numbers?

++

I'm really hoping that there are different UPC codes for the two versions as I don't have the movie yet and I REALLY want the AVC version now. Maybe some sort of change in the packaging? UPC code from anyone who has the AVC release, please!
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post #72 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 12:03 AM
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I have the AVC version and bought it on release day. I'll sell it for the modest price of $400.
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post #73 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 02:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Inner ring: [Blu-ray logo] LY02 M5 020593.1.B VD04
Outer ring (written backwards!): [Blu-ray logo] LY01 M5 020593.1.A VD06

But FoxyMulder previously gave the "BVDL" codes for his MPEG-2 copy (without mentioning the numbers at the very end). I'm really confused, and now my eyes hurt. Thanks guys.

As far as the packaging: the case is an Elite with the shiny etched Blu-ray logo, there's no quote on the front cover, UPC is 031398205937 with a smaller barcode of 80 to the right, the see-through art is Sarah coming up from the ground on the left pane with the Blu-ray logo and "beyond high definition" on the right pane, and there are 2 inserts.

Here is a pic of the disc and packaging.....I used macro mode to try and get the disc numbers...Worked relatively ok and i used paint Shop Pro to darken and sharpen slightly so it's clearer. File sizes of all three pics is approaching 2 megabytes so i decided against posting directly the images in this thread so as to avoid slowdown for dial up members but they are easily clickable.

Along from the numbers is A04 which is not so visible on my camera taken picture of jpg1. Pictures can be clicked to zoom in....Unfortunately camera doesn't have anti shake technology and i took these very quickly as i was reading the thread.

http://www.darkrealmfox.com/descent1.jpg
http://www.darkrealmfox.com/descent2.jpg
http://www.darkrealmfox.com/descent3.jpg

My inner and outer ring BVDL numbers appear to match Lyris even though his is the AVC edition.

I have asked Movietyme for a replacement....I got my copy with the Playstation 3 in June with their ten free movie offer....Clearly this edition is inferior and the AVC edition is the one which should be in the shops.

It's interesting in the other Descent thread there are several people complaining about the "noise" ( grain ) ....The consumer needs educated and people need to realize grain is good....Films shot on 35mm film with low lighting conditions will have more grain such as this film.

Interestingly one person says they liked the 1.78:1 composition better than the 2.35:1 version - I believe it was shot Super 35 so a 1.78:1 version may have more image top and bottom as on many Super 35mm films which don't have CGI effects you won't lose image by opening it up to 1.78:1....To me i think that might ruin the composition of many shots but it's not as barbaric as butchering a proper scope movie to 1.78:1 which i absolutely hate them doing. ( still for me it's OAR all the way )
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post #74 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 03:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

My inner and outer ring BVDL numbers appear to match Lyris even though his is the AVC edition.

This just gets stranger and stranger.

Lyris has BVDL-004320A1 1/BVDL-004320B1 2
TommyV has BVDL-004320A1 3/BVDL-004320B1 5
FoxyMulder has BVDL-004320A1 10/BVDL-004320B1 7

My disc must have been pressed on Mars since I have M5 020593.1.A VD06/M5 020593.1.B VD04 with Blu-ray logos and layer number indications.

My case is also a different type (no raised "badge" around the logo) but that happens all the time.

I just checked my Lionsgate BDs of T2, Basic Instinct, Crank, Rambo, Stargate, and Total Recall and they all have the same type of markings as my copy of The Descent. Four of them are from Wal-Mart Canada, one from eBay, and one from Tower.com.

Different factories pressing them perhaps? I don't get why the end serial numbers would be different on each of your discs though.
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post #75 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 04:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

This just gets stranger and stranger.

Lyris has BVDL-004320A1 1/BVDL-004320B1 2
TommyV has BVDL-004320A1 3/BVDL-004320B1 5
FoxyMulder has BVDL-004320B1 10/BVDL-004320B1 7

My disc must have been pressed on Mars since I have M5 020593.1.A VD06/M5 020593.1.B VD04 with Blu-ray logos and layer number indications.

My case is also a different type (no raised "badge" around the logo) but that happens all the time.

I just checked my Lionsgate BDs of T2, Basic Instinct, Crank, Rambo, Stargate, and Total Recall and they all have the same type of markings as my copy of The Descent. Four of them are from Wal-Mart Canada, one from eBay, and one from Tower.com.

Different factories pressing them perhaps? I don't get why the end serial numbers would be different on each of your discs though.

It's BVDL-004320A1 10/BVDL-004320B1 7 that i have. Only difference to Lyris is the very last numbers on each...The 10 and 7.

Maybe if Lyris could examine the disc in the computer and show the date it was created it may help matters but the big question i have is why are these MPEG2 versions being sold....Were the AVC editions taken off the marketplace or is the AVC edition supposed to be the one being sold in which case why is Lionsgate not recalling the MPEG2 editions from the shops and online retailers they sold them to.
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post #76 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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That's what I meant, just copypasted wrong.

Phloyd already posted all the dates for the AVC version, or are you thinking there may be ANOTHER variant?

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

It appears that...
AVC version: authored 12/01/2006 and released 12/26/2006
MPEG-2 version: authored 01/08/2007 and silently released ???/2007

It seems like the MPEG-2 version has all but replaced the AVC in store stock, though BerserkerTails said he purchased his AVC in mid-2007 from Wal-Mart Canada. If they are doing a covert replacement they'd have no reason to recall the AVC discs, just let them sell through since they never announced a replacement program.

I would like to see how the BD-Java file was altered. I don't know of any program that can parse them though.
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post #77 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

I think part of the difference in color is because your setup is doing BT.601 conversion instead of BT.709 but there's still a massive difference even if I use BT.601 and compare to your caps.

Yeah, I suspect that's the case. I use the CoreAVC codec to decode AVC content, and I wonder if that's where the BT.601 conversion is being applied. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be an option to change this in the codec's configuration menu.

By the way, I've updated my original post to include captures of the PiP encode (both my version and yours). Barring the slight colour differences, they look identical (I flipped back and forth between them in Photoshop), so I think we can reasonably assume that they're the same encode.
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post #78 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 05:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post




It seems like the MPEG-2 version has all but replaced the AVC in store stock, though BerserkerTails said he purchased his AVC in mid-2007 from Wal-Mart Canada. If they are doing a covert replacement they'd have no reason to recall the AVC discs, just let them sell through since they never announced a replacement program.

Why would a company knowingly sell an inferior product when they had already produced a better version ?

This stinks if the MPEG2 edition is going to be the only version on sale....Hmmm what is going on here ? Why would they think the smoother inferior version is the one to sell ?

So many questions so little answers.
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post #79 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 08:13 AM
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I remembered I have a Blu-ray drive in my HP laptop and tried to pop it in and see what codec is being used. Unfortunately the QuickPlay (Cyberlink) software that is included does not seem to offer a way to do this.
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post #80 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiggles View Post

By the way, I've updated my original post to include captures of the PiP encode (both my version and yours). Barring the slight colour differences, they look identical (I flipped back and forth between them in Photoshop), so I think we can reasonably assume that they're the same encode.

Thanks, but it was already clear from the filesizes/bitrates/modifed dates that the PiP encode was ported over. I think just having the 3 versions of each shot is good enough.

It appears your MPEG-2 decoder is doing a blur deinterlace?

Also can you check to see whether 00022.m2ts and 00030.m2ts are AVC on your disc? And while you're here how about the UPC, does it also have the "80" on the right?

TommyV, BDInfo.

We need to find a Lionsgate insider somehow.
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post #81 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Thanks, but it was already clear from the filesizes/bitrates/modifed dates that the PiP encode was ported over. I think just having the 3 versions of each shot is good enough.

It appears your MPEG-2 decoder is doing a blur deinterlace?

Also can you check to see whether 00022.m2ts and 00030.m2ts are AVC on your disc? And while you're here how about the UPC, does it also have the "80" on the right?

TommyV, BDInfo.

We need to find a Lionsgate insider somehow.

Happy to help. 00022.m2ts is MPEG-2 for me. 00030.m2ts appears to be unreferenced (no corresponding .mpls file) and I can't see any way to get it to load in BDInfo. In fact, I get an unspecified error when I try to open it in VirtualDubMod, Windows Media Player or Graphedit. Am I doing something wrong?

The UPC is 031398205937, with "80" on the right.
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post #82 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

TommyV, BDInfo.

Thank you msgohan!

Now I was not able to do a full scan but it did do a basic scan. It appears mine is AVC. The first file said MPEG-2 with DD 2.0 audio and that had me worried but the next file was AVC with many audio tracks including LPCM 5.1 so that must be the main movie.

Edit: My 00022.MPLS is MPEG-2 and I cannot find 00030 either. I have the 80 as well.
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post #83 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:


Maybe if Lyris could examine the disc in the computer and show the date it was created it may help matters but the big question i have is why are these MPEG2 versions being sold....Were the AVC editions taken off the marketplace or is the AVC edition supposed to be the one being sold in which case why is Lionsgate not recalling the MPEG2 editions from the shops and online retailers they sold them to.

00002.m2ts = created at 8th November 2006 at 17:53:09

The rest of the files on the disc all have the 8th November 2006 date stamp, but differing times.

David Mackenzie
DVD/BD Compressionist/Author
Reviewer & Tech Consultant, HDTVtest
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post #84 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiggles View Post

Happy to help. 00022.m2ts is MPEG-2 for me. 00030.m2ts appears to be unreferenced (no corresponding .mpls file) and I can't see any way to get it to load in BDInfo. In fact, I get an unspecified error when I try to open it in VirtualDubMod, Windows Media Player or Graphedit. Am I doing something wrong?

Not surprising, but it does open in Media Player Classic for me using Haali Media Splitter and ffdshow. It just plays as a couple frames of black with no audio. Really just a curiosity as it's one of the files that's different between the discs.

Quote:


The UPC is 031398205937, with "80" on the right.

Darn, identical to the MPEG-2 package then.
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post #85 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 11:27 AM
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Well thats insane who makes these ignorant decisions. As frankly they wasted cash and time redoing a great transfer. Very Very odd indeed.
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post #86 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 11:49 AM
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Good to see that it now has been established that the MPEG-2 version has been butchered and is indeed missing a good deal of detail.

Yesterday evening I took the trouble of watching this movie again after 1 year, and I found my gripes with grain were mainly from the outdoor scenes. The filtering seemes to have enhanced the grain there.

My guess is that the director wanted to make the outdoor shots grainy on purpose to match (in this case: exceed) the indoor scenes.
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post #87 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 01:55 PM
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Went to Best Buy, price matched to Wal-Mart at $20 and looked at two copies of the film on Blu. One had two stickers on it, the other had three price stickers and looked a little beat up. Grabbed the older one, popped it in and I got lucky. AVC all the way.

Outer ring: BVDL-004320A1 3
Inner ring: BVDL-004320B1 04
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post #88 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 02:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post

Good to see that it now has been established that the MPEG-2 version has been butchered and is indeed missing a good deal of detail.

Yesterday evening I took the trouble of watching this movie again after 1 year, and I found my gripes with grain were mainly from the outdoor scenes. The filtering seemes to have enhanced the grain there.

My guess is that the director wanted to make the outdoor shots grainy on purpose to match (in this case: exceed) the indoor scenes.

See this is where i fail to understand where you are coming from....On the one hand you talk about detail and then on the other hand you gripe about grain....I'm confused by your post.

The MPEG2 edition has smoothed over the grain thus robbing the film of the best possible image quality....The AVC edition retains the grain and the detail.

So what are you saying ? Are you saying you dislike the grain in the image or not ?
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post #89 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 02:09 PM
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I think what he's saying is that the DVNR job on the MPEG-2 version made what grain there is more distracting by making it a shifting mass of blobs among a smoothed over image instead of a fine grain that doesn't distract.
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post #90 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 07:34 PM
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I have the MPEG2 version. All three versions on the disc are MPEG2, Unrated, Rated and PiP Track.
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