The Descent - 2 different Blu-ray versions CONFIRMED (MPEG-2 vs AVC encoding) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 06:52 PM
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I checked this afternoon - AVC version here. I got mine used from a third-party seller on Amazon a couple years ago, but it works great, looks great. This whole thing is really strange - can't understand why Lionsgate would do two different encodes.

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post #92 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 07:26 PM
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well, disregarding those screencaps,. the MPEG version looks great to me still, but I guess if I could have the option I would have chosen the AVC version... pretty hard to do from Australia though :S
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post #93 of 793 Old 09-14-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigDad View Post

I checked this afternoon - AVC version here. I got mine used from a third-party seller on Amazon a couple years ago, but it works great, looks great. This whole thing is really strange - can't understand why Lionsgate would do two different encodes.

Let alone downgrade on the codec. It's just baffling.
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post #94 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 12:12 AM
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MPEG2 / 7.1 PCM (Warner style case) bought from J&R.com
______________________________________

Disk codes (VERY hard to see)

M5 020593 1 VD04

M2S3 & S2SM

No dual markings to indicate that it's a BD-50
__________________________________

Proof of purchase code: 20593
UPC: 0 31398 205937 80

__________________________________________

Liongate booklet code: 3000006864

"Experience the Blu Revolution"

Advertising Crank, Crash, The Descent, T2, Saw III

HD DVD [R.I.P. 02/19/08] :(
Blu-Ray: 900+

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post #95 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

The MPEG2 edition has smoothed over the grain thus robbing the film of the best possible image quality....The AVC edition retains the grain and the detail.

I remember the first time viewing the PQ and not being not impressed but now I know why

I always wondered why the grain didn't look heavy to me... It's funny, the thought had once popped in my head about Lionsgate re-released it on MPEG2 using a touch of DNR. It's still decent looking but the black levels seem kinda high. Maybe it's just me?

HD DVD [R.I.P. 02/19/08] :(
Blu-Ray: 900+

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post #96 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 12:38 AM
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I just checked mine its MPEG 2 and it looks great. Whats all the fuss about?
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post #97 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bori View Post

I just checked mine its MPEG 2 and it looks great. Whats all the fuss about?

The fact that it looks noticeably inferior to the AVC version. Surely that isn't too hard to understand?
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post #98 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saginawjuggalo View Post

MPEG2 / 7.1 PCM (Warner style case) bought from J&R.com
______________________________________

Disk codes (VERY hard to see)

M5 020593 1 VD04

M2S3 & S2SM

No dual markings to indicate that it's a BD-50
__________________________________

Proof of purchase code: 20593
UPC: 0 31398 205937 80

__________________________________________

Liongate booklet code: 3000006864

"Experience the Blu Revolution"

Advertising Crank, Crash, The Descent, T2, Saw III

Yours was in an Elite (Warner style) case? How odd. I've never seen a Lionsgate release in an Elite case. They've always been in the Sony/Buena Vista style of case around here.
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post #99 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 06:10 AM
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I own tons of Lionsgate titles using Elite cases. I perfer the Sony/Buena Vista though, but what can ya do when you buy online? Doing store swaps is getting old. I'm not buying replacement cases and tacking on extra cost haha.

It seems Lionsgate was been using Elite cases a lot lately.

3:10 to Yuma
American Psycho
Good Luck Chuck
The Punisher
Rambo: First Blood Part II
Rambo III
Rambo
Saw IV
Van Wilder
Waiting...
War
Witless Protection (I got it for $7 haha)


I've also seen seen Crank & Terminator 2 using these cases.. It seems they Lionsgate and Fox source out their cases by buying whatever is cheapest.

HD DVD [R.I.P. 02/19/08] :(
Blu-Ray: 900+

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post #100 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 07:54 AM
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Thanks to all for understanding and highlighting the crux of the issue. Will soon notify Lionsgate about this unnecessary problem. Shame on them on switching the codec from AVC to MPEG-2 as well as grain scrubbing it.

Blu-ray : 340
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post #101 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saginawjuggalo View Post

MPEG2 / 7.1 PCM (Warner style case) bought from J&R.com
______________________________________

Disk codes (VERY hard to see)

M5 020593 1 VD04

M2S3 & S2SM

No dual markings to indicate that it's a BD-50

I had a long reply written out, so of course Firefox decided to crash.

That's strange about the lack of the second layer markings. Are you sure? If there's yet ANOTHER version... I'm beginning to think Lionsgate is purposely trying to screw with people who pay too much attention to their Blu-ray releases.

I stupidly bought another MPEG-2 copy at Wal-Mart today, hoping for AVC. Your post wasn't up before I left so when I saw one Elite case with matte Blu-ray logo sitting there amongst about 5 Buena Vista-style cases I figured that was it. I wonder if they'd mind exchanging this opened copy for the one with the nicer case.

I doubt the case type means anything at all but anyone else feel like posting which kind you've got? So many red herrings trying to figure this out.

This isn't the first strange difference with Lionsgate's Blu-ray releases. "Terminator 2" and "Saw" have two different covers (shiny silver metallic backing vs matte printed). Anyone know which came first? Is one a replacement, or are they meant to co-exist? Supposedly the discs are the same, but I don't think anyone's actually checked beyond the basics. And given Lionsgate's crusade against logic...





There were differences between the top stickers on Wal-Mart's varying copies. Couldn't check T2 as they only had the shiny version.

"The Descent"/Elite matte logo case
THE DESCENT WIDESCREEN

"The Descent"/BVHE-style case
DESCENT, THE
A020593


"Saw"/shiny cover/Elite matte logo case
SAW

"Saw"/matte cover/BVHE-style case
SAW
A019393


"Saw III"/Elite matte logo case
SAW 3

"Saw III"/BVHE-style case
SAW 3
A020737


It seems like the catalogue sticker/case/ring serial number type differences probably correlate to where they were manufactured rather than version differences but who knows...
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post #102 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 12:29 PM
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The shiny versions are newer. The first 5 Lionsgate titles (T2, Crash, Punisher, Saw, Lord Of War) had the cover template featured on the right side images.

Then Lionsgate changed to the shiny versions and probably redid the old ones. The curious thing is, those are the exact 5 titles without HD audio. From second wave on they started to include at least DTS-HD HR 3mbps.
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post #103 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 02:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, AlexBC. Things are starting to make a bit more sense now.

I actually bought a matte copy of "Saw" today as well (it's one I didn't own on any format). I really wish they would've kept to this cover style and the BVHE-style cases instead of the shiny/whooshy crap. Anyway, I've cracked it open now and I see that it's got an ad inside listing that first wave as "Available Now" with the matte covers and then Saw II/First Blood/American Psycho/Young Guns with shiny covers on the reverse as "Coming Soon". So that certainly jibes with what you've said.

As I expected, this "Saw" disc has the much easier-to-read serial number type starting with BV. It seems for Lionsgate at least, a BVHE-style case means a disc with BV code and Elite means the nearly impossible to read code. All of the Sony, Disney, and Fox discs I checked have the BV codes regardless of case type. The "Saw" disc, Fox's "X-Men: The Last Stand" (Elite) and Image's "Short Circuit" (BVHE-style) all have BVSS instead of BVDL which I guess is an indication of the number of layers (everybody else probably knew that already? ).

Anyway, it will all make sense if the copies of "The Descent" with the catalog number on the top sticker are the older AVC discs and the copies of "Saw III" with the catalog are... whichever version of that disc is older! In that case all of the numbered labels = older disc. The shiny copies of T2 just said TERMINATOR 2. The couple newer movies I checked like "Rambo" also just said RAMBO with no number underneath. I really hope this is the key to finding the disc version.

From the blu-raystats.com site, it appears that "The Descent" was Lionsgate's first AVC disc (2006-12-26)? "Employee of the Month" was their second (2007-01-16). "Saw III" was their third, if an AVC version of it does exist (2007-01-23). Perhaps they decided afterwards that people weren't ready for such newfangled nonsense.

Interestingly, High Def Digest's announcement stating Lionsgate's first BD-50 release claimed the disc would be MPEG-2, though that may have been an assumption on their part as I couldn't find a press release that states the codec.

I see Whiggles has given this topic some free publicity on his site.
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post #104 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 03:01 PM
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Can you post pics of the two Decent covers?
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post #105 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure, but as I previously mentioned, I suck at taking photos. Remember that these are BOTH the MPEG-2 version and there's no difference between them. The only difference I saw between all of the covers at the store was that some were cut higher or lower (all the same size, but looking at the spine, some had more of Sarah's picture at the top with less silver space at the bottom and some had less of the picture with more space at the bottom). That's obviously just random though.

First the pics I took of today's purchase when the sun was actually shining bright, then the two together with flash ruining everything.





The added UPC sticker covering up the original UPC is common to all Lionsgate Blu-rays in Canada since they don't reprint their labels with French unlike other studios. And the home video rating prevents kids from buying even "Unrated" discs - there was a beep at the checkout and the screen asked if I was born on or before today's date in 1990.

You can see the backwards-written code to the right in the ring picture. It's actually easier to see in this pic than in real life.

The insert included is different from FoxyMulder's MPEG-2 copy - I wonder if this is also related to the case type.
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post #106 of 793 Old 09-15-2008, 09:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Since I wasn't into HD in early '07, I didn't realize just how much of a riot this disc caused when it wouldn't play in the standalones. Multiple tech sites reported the problems and many threads were spawned here with people bickering back and forth and claiming they would drop Blu-ray entirely since their brand new players wouldn't play their brand new discs.

I still say a BD-Java fix is the most likely reason for the replacement, with the change to MPEG-2 possibly to ENSURE complete compatibility. And I think someone just decided to filter and tweak it while making the new encode so it looked better to them.

Check out these quotes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by learning101 View Post

I had sent Chris a PM about this and he sent me a reply. I didn't post it, thinking he would want to post it himself later. Since I don't think he did, I thought he wouldn't mind if I copied it here:
Beginning of info from Chris ---------------------------------
I am aware of the Descent not playing, however it appears to be an authoring error. The file which contains the instructions on what to do are located in the root directory of the main .jar file. These instructions are supposed to be located in a specific directory.

I am working with Lionsgate about this issue. I have every BD disc that is available worldwide and personally tested each one that was available with the player prior to shipping.

Please give me a few days to get an official response from Pioneer Japan and Lionsgate...

Thanks,

Chris
End of info from Chris ---------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by drhankz View Post

REPORT on Pioneer News From CES

I was able to learn a number of things from people
in the Pioneer Booth about Futures [GRIN]!

1) There is the appropriate hardware in the BDP-HD1
to enable internal decoding of Lossless Audio.

2) Beta FW versions of TrueHD Software Decoding is
at Dolby Labs for Certification.

3) The player can be updated with a DISK - this
feature has been extensively tested.

4) The Player can be updated via the Built-In
Ethernet Interface. This feature has also been
extensively tested. There is no MENTION of this
feature in the manual because it was printed BEFORE
Pioneer had their Update Servers ready to support
any updating over the Internet. This live updating
has also been tested with the servers that are now
in-place and it takes about 12 minutes for an
update via the Internet. This will will likely be
announced SHORTLY after CES ends.

5) There is an update disc for fixing the Descent
problem - which is a Lionsgate Authoring problem
that Pioneer has now made a FW change to adapt to
their incorrect directory structure. This UPDATE disc
should be available shortly - also or available over
the Internet Update Feature!

Also this might be related, or not:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innerloop View Post

I pre-ordered Descent on Amazon, and just today got a notification that the shipping estimated has been moved back to January 2.

Is this because Amazon ran out of stock (I pre-ordered on 12/20, a while ago), or is this because they are pulling the discs temporarily to correct these problems? As far as I know, 12/20 was one of the earliest days that Amazon re-enabled pre-ordering this title, so I can't imagine too many people were ahead of me in the queue. Something smells fishy.

Did anyone receive on from Amazon? I am going to scour the shelves today here to find one at retail if I can...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkypalm View Post

Yeah, I got the same email. I ordered on 12/21/2006, so you are ahead of me.

It would be interesting to know when their discs actually shipped and which version they got.
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post #107 of 793 Old 09-16-2008, 10:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Well... the good news is I managed to do the exchange and got an AVC copy! The bad news is I wasn't paying attention when I picked it up. I just made sure of the case type and top sticker, then shoved it into the stack of $5 HD DVDs I picked up. Meanwhile there's a massive gash in the front cover and the top of the acetate is cut off! I didn't notice until partway through unwrapping but I checked and there's no slice through the shrinkwrap, so it was hacked up before being sealed!



Also I'm not convinced that the catalog sticker difference really has anything to do with which disc you'll get. I hope so, but I did a more extensive search and noticed many other Lionsgate BDs with case differences that also have the catalog sticker difference. And since FoxyMulder has an MPEG-2 copy in a BVHE-style case his catalog sticker may well have matched mine. Really strange stuff all around, and an argument in favor of cutting the stickers instead of removing them.

For brevity, BV = BVHE-style case and EM = Elite case with matte logo.

For starters there actually IS a difference between the covers for MPEG-2 and AVC copies of "The Descent". But it's because of the case type. All of the BVs in the store have slightly altered spine art vs the Elites to compensate for the difference in thickness. The width of the spine art is lessened on the BVs, with any images getting cropped by a tiny amount.

Not sure about the others but the spine text on "The Descent" is also reformatted slightly. On the BV the text stating THE DESCENT ORIGINAL UNRATED CUT is bolder and the distance between the edge of the final "T" and the top of the Blu-ray logo's woosh is 6mm vs 5mm on the Elite. Yes, seriously. A 1mm difference. I expect FoxyMulder's BV MPEG-2 spine matches my BV AVC. Please confirm.



Other differences for other movies!

"Total Recall"
TOTAL RECALL (many copies)
= EM with your typical silver Lionsgate cover that shines rainbows when exposed to light.
TOTAL RECALL (one copy)
A019153
= BV with silver Lionsgate cover that stays silver when exposed to light. This makes the spine much easier to read! I wish they were all like this.

"The Devil's Rejects"
THE DEVIL'S REJECTS (many copies)
= EM with rainbow silver.
DEVIL'S REJECTS (many copies)
A019507
= BV with non-rainbow silver.

"First Blood"
RAMBO (many copies)
= EM with "18A" Canadian sticker on left side.
RAMBO: FIRST BLOOD (one copy)
A19157
= BV with "14A" Canadian sticker on right side.
(Makes no sense as the EM catalog matches the new Rambo movie's catalog instead of this film's actual title. Way to go guys.)

"The Eye"
THE EYE (many copies)
= EM with a different catalog sticker type matching some Warner titles. The Blu-ray logo is larger and wider on this and the font is different, with the second word bolded and the first not.

"Reservoir Dogs"
RESERVOIR DOGS (many copies)
= BV.
RESERVOIR DOGS (many copies)
= EM.
(This one defies the pattern of every other sticker as the BV doesn't include the catalog number!)

The Canadian UPC stickers also vary in appearance in conjunction with the case type.

Here are all of the codes on the data-side rings of my AVC copy.

IFPI L322 A04 BVDL-004320A1 3
IFPI L322 A06 BVDL-004320B1 04

Finally two of us have the same trailing numbers on the BVDL code as this matches Deviation's AVC copy that he also just bought the other day.

Drifting OT but what the hell is THIS:



Amazon.ca is using these images for the regular $14 Blu-rays. I never knew they were ever supposed to be SE with matte covers.
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post #108 of 793 Old 09-16-2008, 11:30 AM
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Well, both of those are concept art, not photos of actual packages. It looks like they repurposed the DVD cover images as placeholders before mocking up the actual covers they printed.

Edit: I've got to give Lionsgate some credit for actually changing the coverart when switching from BV to EM cases. Fox used BV cases for a long time with labels sized for EM cases and when Paramount came back to Blu-ray they were using EM cases but still designing their labels for BV cases.

The Fox releases had spines that bled over to both the front and back (The Simpsons Movie, Mr. & Mrs. Smith, Sunshine, etc) while the Paramount releases had coverart that bunched up and warped (Cloverfield, There Will Be Blood, The Ruins, etc).
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post #109 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Windows just shows the volume labels for both discs as LOGICAL_VOLUME_ID. AnyDVD can actually read them properly.

AVC version: 71843914_DESCENT_BD
MPEG-2 version: 78862892_DESCENT_BD

Just another difference you can only check out if you've got a BD-ROM drive, but interesting nonetheless.

My Lionsgate "Terminator 2" is 76819571_TERMINATOR2_TH (authored 2007-04-03).

... T2 was released 2006-06-27. Son of a bitch! I only checked the modified date on this because I was curious why it would have a "larger" volume number than "The Descent" which was released more recently.

Another title with different versions? Sort of. The directories were all modified on the 2007 date, but the only files that have that date are in the AACS directory. All of the other files were modified 2006-06-09. So this was replaced to update the AACS protection only. Was there ever publicity about discs being redone to conform to AACS updates?

My Lionsgate "Total Recall" is 77947342_TOTAL_RECALL (authored 2007-05-22). Released 2006-08-29! Maybe I should really stop inspecting Blu-rays. This one has no earlier dates anywhere on the disc. What the?? The M2TS files were modified from 8:58 PM to 9:00 PM and the directories at 9:02 PM. I doubt they're actually different from the earlier pressing, considering the times.

My Lionsgate "First Blood" is 17392276_A019157 - A019157 is actually the catalog number, not some random code (authored 2007-04-09). Released 2007-02-06. All files have the same date. M2TS files 4:19 PM to 5:03 PM. Directories 5:04 PM.

My "Stargate" is 31020276_00000005_STARGATE (authored 2007-04-11). Released 2006-08-29. All files same date. M2TS's from 1:30 PM to 1:31 PM. Directories 1:32 PM.

My "Basic Instinct" is BASIC_INSTINCT - this one displays properly in Windows (authored 2007-04-04). Released 2007-05-29. Finally one authored before release date. M2TS's have various dates.

My "Rambo" is RAMBO - also displays fine in Windows (authored 2008-05-03). Released 2008-05-27. This was a preorder so it damn well better be the first pressing!

My "Saw" (matte cover in BV) is 66000005_SAW (authored 2006-06-01). Released 2006-06-27. All files actually from the same date even on this pre-release authored disc. Hmm. M2TS's all 10:25 PM. Directories 10:28 PM.

My "Crank" is 38829276_CRANK_BLURAY (authored 2007-05-13). Released 2007-01-09. Most of the files including the M2TS's have February dates... Some others are January. One file was actually modified at 5:03 PM on release day. All of the other dates are after that, and the only files modified on 2007-05-13 are the AACS files. ?!?!?!?! Is this another disc with different encodes? It's definitely still all MPEG-2.

Perhaps these different pressings - with or without file changes - are the reason for the catalog sticker differences?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another difference I didn't notice initially, the silk screen art on the AVC disc is much darker than on the MPEG-2 disc. Again probably nothing to do with the disc version as FoxyMulder's MPEG-2 disc pic looks more like my AVC disc than my MPEG-2.



And on the data side, the AVC disc has an added silver ring covering up most of the white backing. This isn't a BV vs EM difference as most of my Lionsgate EMs have it as well. Maybe it's totally random. FoxyMulder, your input is required!



The inserts are different between the BV and EM.
My AVC BV: 9855VQBLURAY3 and 9855VQBLURAY2
FoxyMulder's MPEG-2 BV: 9855VQBLURAY3 (and 9855VQBLURAY2?)
My MPEG-2 EM: 3000006864

Still have to compare CRCs of files and check out the JAR structure. Google told me you can extract it using WinRAR to see the directories inside. Also need to make sure both discs are Region Free.
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post #110 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 01:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Crank and Stargate have different disc sizes and movie sizes than benes lists (and for both encodes on Crank). It's like a 1MB difference on Stargate, but 85MB on Crank disc size. 126KB difference on Crank main movie size. 31MB on Crank PiP size. I expect it might be the updated AACS playing with the sizes on Stargate but considering there's usually no difference between our sizes in that thread...

The Crank main movie encode's bitrates match what benes has, but it could be a rounding thing like on The Descent's Rated cut... We need the full specs! The Crank PiP is definitely a different encode, judging from the different bitrates. 18.92/17.78 Mbps vs 18.87/17.79 Mbps. Notice how the overall bitrate is higher on benes' while the video bitrate is ever-so-slightly lower. What. The. F***???

It's funny, cause I was just thinking the other day how nice it was that Lionsgate used a different codec on their altered Descent disc. It took over a year for the first murmurs of a different encode to appear, and then another six months before it was confirmed. Imagine if both were AVC. We'd probably never have known that they re-encoded with filtering. Person A says it's great, person B says it sucks, and neither one knows they're looking at a different image.

Terminator 2, Saw, and Basic Instinct match benes. My First Blood's disc size is 22,596,756,050 bytes vs benes's 22,596,756,314 bytes (which is practically nothing), with matching movie size. Likewise Total Recall is 24,975,636,370 bytes vs 24,975,593,362 bytes, with matching movie size.

benes:
Code:
                                                                                                        Total   Video
Title                                                   Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track        Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                   ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- -----------------       ---------------------
Crank                                                   MPEG-2  1:27:42 21,266,227,200  49,898,065,940  32.33   23.74   LPCM 7.1 6144Kbps ^     DD AC3 5.1-EX 640Kbps
        Crank PiP Secondary Encode                      MPEG-2  1:27:42 12,448,223,232                  18.92   17.78   DD AC3 2.0 192Kbps
msgohan:
Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
Crank                                                           MPEG-2  1:27:42 21,266,356,224  49,987,830,182  32.33   23.74   LPCM 7.1 6144Kbps (48kHz/16-bit)          DD AC3 5.1-EX 640Kbps

DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     LOGICAL_VOLUME_ID
Disc Size:      49,987,830,182 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        Yes

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:           00000.mpls
Size:           21,266,356,224 bytes
Length:         1:27:42 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:  32.33 Mbps
Description:    

FILES:

Name            Size            Length          Time In         Time Out        
----            ----            ------          -------         --------        
00000.M2TS      21,266,356,224  1:27:42.257     0:00:00.000     1:27:42.257     

VIDEO:

Codec               Bitrate         Description     
-----               -------         -----------     
MPEG-2 Video        23744 kbps      1080p / 23.976fps / 16:9

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
LPCM Audio                      English         6144 kbps       7.1 / 48kHz / 16-bit / 6144kbps
Dolby Digital EX Audio          English         640 kbps        5.1-EX / 48kHz / 640kbps
Dolby Digital Audio             English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 192kbps

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         32.206 kbps                     
Presentation Graphics           Spanish         31.553 kbps                     

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time            Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          ----            ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:06:46.114     23,103 kbps     42,682 kbps     00:06:42.819    35,600 kbps     00:01:36.138    30,647 kbps     00:01:32.551    120,446 bytes   710,493 bytes   00:04:11.585    
2               0:06:46.114     0:07:01.963     23,561 kbps     41,329 kbps     00:12:35.213    35,019 kbps     00:08:02.273    29,883 kbps     00:07:56.726    122,834 bytes   689,181 bytes   00:07:59.312    
3               0:13:48.077     0:03:24.204     25,657 kbps     40,425 kbps     00:14:52.308    36,248 kbps     00:15:49.615    33,606 kbps     00:15:48.447    133,766 bytes   732,096 bytes   00:14:28.201    
4               0:17:12.281     0:04:46.328     25,791 kbps     42,006 kbps     00:20:04.745    32,904 kbps     00:19:15.696    31,209 kbps     00:19:10.566    134,463 bytes   689,369 bytes   00:18:31.193    
5               0:21:58.609     0:04:45.327     25,402 kbps     43,313 kbps     00:23:45.466    37,332 kbps     00:23:42.254    34,751 kbps     00:23:42.212    132,433 bytes   691,816 bytes   00:25:16.849    
6               0:26:43.936     0:08:18.748     22,438 kbps     37,378 kbps     00:28:20.741    30,693 kbps     00:34:12.342    27,827 kbps     00:34:12.342    116,979 bytes   677,506 bytes   00:29:23.720    
7               0:35:02.684     0:04:13.670     26,870 kbps     43,093 kbps     00:39:03.258    36,359 kbps     00:35:35.675    33,719 kbps     00:35:30.795    140,090 bytes   689,369 bytes   00:39:10.682    
8               0:39:16.354     0:07:04.841     23,044 kbps     43,040 kbps     00:45:55.169    31,803 kbps     00:40:57.246    29,576 kbps     00:45:55.211    120,141 bytes   785,094 bytes   00:41:19.936    
9               0:46:21.195     0:07:34.037     23,410 kbps     41,132 kbps     00:51:08.565    31,015 kbps     00:52:30.773    30,185 kbps     00:49:21.876    122,051 bytes   726,803 bytes   00:49:11.782    
10              0:53:55.232     0:07:05.342     23,056 kbps     43,369 kbps     00:58:09.152    30,922 kbps     00:58:08.985    30,241 kbps     00:58:08.527    120,205 bytes   741,286 bytes   00:54:12.082    
11              1:01:00.574     0:05:39.714     23,695 kbps     41,050 kbps     01:02:03.511    34,315 kbps     01:02:55.814    31,250 kbps     01:02:50.183    123,533 bytes   785,247 bytes   01:02:43.093    
12              1:06:40.288     0:05:08.433     21,410 kbps     38,958 kbps     01:08:23.266    35,893 kbps     01:08:20.013    32,143 kbps     01:08:16.384    111,624 bytes   677,696 bytes   01:10:31.436    
13              1:11:48.721     0:03:22.035     22,582 kbps     37,024 kbps     01:14:58.160    31,019 kbps     01:14:55.783    28,350 kbps     01:14:50.653    117,730 bytes   665,237 bytes   01:14:06.901    
14              1:15:10.756     0:02:06.543     25,113 kbps     41,154 kbps     01:16:17.364    32,361 kbps     01:15:41.162    29,885 kbps     01:15:40.828    130,926 bytes   677,934 bytes   01:15:32.987    
15              1:17:17.299     0:02:53.424     25,529 kbps     41,151 kbps     01:19:41.986    34,923 kbps     01:19:26.428    33,653 kbps     01:19:21.423    133,096 bytes   642,557 bytes   01:18:49.058    
16              1:20:10.723     0:07:31.534     23,690 kbps     42,217 kbps     01:22:15.931    37,076 kbps     01:22:45.627    29,942 kbps     01:23:32.549    123,507 bytes   718,970 bytes   01:20:49.553    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Lang. Code      Lang. Name      Seconds         Bytes           Packets         Bitrate         
----            ---             ----            -----           ----------      ----------      -------         -----           -------         -------         
00000.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x02            MPEG-2                                          5262.26         15,618,171,059  84,954,769      23,744          
00000.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x80            LPCM            eng             English         5262.26         4,041,415,680   22,101,492      6,144           
00000.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x81            AC3-EX          eng             English         5262.26         420,981,760     2,466,690       640             
00000.M2TS      4354 (0x1102)   0x81            AC3             eng             English         5262.26         126,294,528     822,230         192             
00000.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng             English         5262.26         21,184,558      121,518         32              
00000.M2TS      4609 (0x1201)   0x90            PGS             spa             Spanish         5262.26         20,754,825      119,261         32
Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
Crank PiP Secondary Encode                                      MPEG-2  1:27:42 12,415,211,520  49,987,830,182  18.87   17.79   DD AC3 2.0 192Kbps                        

DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     LOGICAL_VOLUME_ID
Disc Size:      49,987,830,182 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        Yes

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:           00030.mpls
Size:           12,415,211,520 bytes
Length:         1:27:42 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:  18.87 Mbps
Description:    

FILES:

Name            Size            Length          Time In         Time Out        
----            ----            ------          -------         --------        
00031.M2TS      12,415,211,520  1:27:42.257     0:00:00.000     1:27:42.257     

VIDEO:

Codec               Bitrate         Description     
-----               -------         -----------     
MPEG-2 Video        17788 kbps      1080p / 23.976fps / 16:9

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Dolby Digital Audio             English         192 kbps        2.0 / 48kHz / 192kbps

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time            Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          ----            ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:06:46.114     17,359 kbps     37,282 kbps     00:05:18.360    30,936 kbps     00:01:36.388    24,530 kbps     00:01:32.551    90,502 bytes    565,513 bytes   00:06:45.989    
2               0:06:46.114     0:07:01.963     17,321 kbps     45,261 kbps     00:12:35.213    27,952 kbps     00:08:02.273    25,538 kbps     00:07:55.767    90,305 bytes    587,717 bytes   00:07:59.062    
3               0:13:48.077     0:03:24.204     19,300 kbps     38,181 kbps     00:15:51.200    32,257 kbps     00:15:49.866    28,132 kbps     00:15:48.447    100,622 bytes   595,568 bytes   00:14:28.326    
4               0:17:12.281     0:04:46.328     19,007 kbps     39,310 kbps     00:20:04.745    26,240 kbps     00:18:27.898    23,537 kbps     00:17:33.386    99,092 bytes    624,717 bytes   00:21:00.342    
5               0:21:58.609     0:04:45.327     19,103 kbps     42,150 kbps     00:22:32.017    32,393 kbps     00:23:42.379    27,973 kbps     00:23:42.463    99,594 bytes    648,127 bytes   00:22:22.550    
6               0:26:43.936     0:08:18.748     16,609 kbps     32,115 kbps     00:33:33.929    23,131 kbps     00:34:12.634    21,054 kbps     00:34:12.342    86,594 bytes    567,592 bytes   00:30:44.301    
7               0:35:02.684     0:04:13.670     20,774 kbps     44,184 kbps     00:39:03.633    32,051 kbps     00:39:03.258    27,012 kbps     00:35:36.801    108,309 bytes   546,236 bytes   00:35:02.726    
8               0:39:16.354     0:07:04.841     17,327 kbps     41,387 kbps     00:45:55.169    26,922 kbps     00:40:57.538    23,302 kbps     00:44:36.090    90,334 bytes    627,568 bytes   00:41:14.430    
9               0:46:21.195     0:07:34.037     17,395 kbps     35,464 kbps     00:52:34.777    25,817 kbps     00:49:21.500    24,102 kbps     00:49:21.876    90,687 bytes    596,072 bytes   00:46:24.740    
10              0:53:55.232     0:07:05.342     17,117 kbps     38,476 kbps     00:54:33.061    26,174 kbps     00:54:29.141    22,468 kbps     01:00:50.605    89,241 bytes    631,002 bytes   00:59:46.416    
11              1:01:00.574     0:05:39.714     17,560 kbps     34,203 kbps     01:04:17.228    25,631 kbps     01:04:13.224    23,551 kbps     01:02:50.058    91,551 bytes    588,094 bytes   01:04:00.170    
12              1:06:40.288     0:05:08.433     15,774 kbps     34,999 kbps     01:08:23.266    30,909 kbps     01:08:21.389    26,553 kbps     01:08:16.384    82,241 bytes    591,410 bytes   01:11:42.256    
13              1:11:48.721     0:03:22.035     16,706 kbps     34,603 kbps     01:14:12.573    23,505 kbps     01:14:55.783    21,525 kbps     01:14:50.778    87,096 bytes    598,289 bytes   01:14:20.539    
14              1:15:10.756     0:02:06.543     19,266 kbps     34,290 kbps     01:16:17.364    24,336 kbps     01:15:41.162    22,884 kbps     01:17:07.331    100,442 bytes   595,285 bytes   01:15:38.242    
15              1:17:17.299     0:02:53.424     19,493 kbps     38,145 kbps     01:19:36.563    28,065 kbps     01:19:26.428    27,224 kbps     01:19:21.298    101,628 bytes   542,249 bytes   01:18:42.176    
16              1:20:10.723     0:07:31.534     18,371 kbps     41,996 kbps     01:22:15.973    36,443 kbps     01:22:45.002    26,225 kbps     01:22:42.541    95,780 bytes    577,934 bytes   01:27:27.200    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Lang. Code      Lang. Name      Seconds         Bytes           Packets         Bitrate         
----            ---             ----            -----           ----------      ----------      -------         -----           -------         -------         
00031.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x02            MPEG-2                                          5262.26         11,700,648,797  63,664,028      17,788          
00031.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x81            AC3             eng             English         5262.26         126,294,528     822,230         192
I've compared the main movie to one 1080p JPEG from Whiggles' site and one 1080p JPEG from Blu-ray.com. There are differences but aside from the BT.601 color difference on Whiggles' shot they're so incredibly minor it could easily be due to different decoders or JPEG compression altering the image. Of course there's no guarantee that either of the JPEGs match the benes version.
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post #111 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 02:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Another difference I didn't notice initially, the silk screen art on the AVC disc is much darker than on the MPEG-2 disc. Again probably nothing to do with the disc version as FoxyMulder's MPEG-2 disc pic looks more like my AVC disc than my MPEG-2.



And on the data side, the AVC disc has an added silver ring covering up most of the white backing. This isn't a BV vs EM difference as most of my Lionsgate EMs have it as well. Maybe it's totally random. FoxyMulder, your input is required!



The inserts are different between the BV and EM.
My AVC BV: 9855VQBLURAY3 and 9855VQBLURAY2
FoxyMulder's MPEG-2 BV: 9855VQBLURAY3 (and 9855VQBLURAY2?)
My MPEG-2 EM: 3000006864

Still have to compare CRCs of files and check out the JAR structure. Google told me you can extract it using WinRAR to see the directories inside. Also need to make sure both discs are Region Free.


I don't see much white backing at all on my disc...Very minor and uneven and near the centre of the disc. Mines is like the first pic above.
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post #112 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you agree yours is the darker color disc art? And how about the insert(s)?
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post #113 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 02:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Do you agree yours is the darker color disc art? And how about the insert(s)?

I posted the photo of the insert and think it's different to yours unless i missed a post....First pic of each of your photos represents my disc and it's most definately the darker one.

Movietyme offered me a chance to replace this disc after i pointed them to this thread and told them what has happened....God knows if there is any AVC editions left to actually get the replacement.
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post #114 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

I posted the photo of the insert and think it's different to yours unless i missed a post....First pic of each of your photos represents my disc and it's most definately the darker one.

I never posted pics of the inside of my AVC version's case, just the other one.

So just one insert then? Cause this one and my "Saw" copy have the two inserts I listed in post #109. Considering the second insert advertises "Saw II", "First Blood", "American Psycho", and "Young Guns" as "Coming Soon" (Jan and Feb 2007 releases) that might be a clue that the MPEG-2 version was packaged after those came out.

I was wrong about the "Crank" shots not having significant differences by the way. The Whiggles shot has obvious excess blocking and worse grain reproduction at 200% zoom. I suppose this could possibly be due to the JPEG compression.

EDIT: In fact if I save my PNG as a JPEG around the same file size (216KB) I get similar blocking. Interesting, I didn't realize that JPEG compression could look like this. The Blu-ray.com shot is 1MB so no wonder that's closer.
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post #115 of 793 Old 09-17-2008, 11:44 PM
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I think I got the mpeg-2 version






Recall!!!!!!

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post #116 of 793 Old 09-18-2008, 05:23 AM
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I rented it from Netflix last week but got an MPEG2 as well. I'm just going to sell my copy and be done with it. I don't like the film enough to start chasing down an AVC copy.
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post #117 of 793 Old 09-18-2008, 06:41 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunkaroo View Post

I rented it from Netflix last week but got an MPEG2 as well. I'm just going to sell my copy and be done with it. I don't like the film enough to start chasing down an AVC copy.

Unfortunately i do and it would seem to be a major headache trying to get an AVC copy....Wait till the Ebay sellers find out about this and watch the price rise for those treasured AVC editions of the movie.
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post #118 of 793 Old 09-18-2008, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

Unfortunately i do and it would seem to be a major headache trying to get an AVC copy....Wait till the Ebay sellers find out about this and watch the price rise for those treasured AVC editions of the movie.

I can pick up another copy from Wal-Mart if you want. Price would end up being almost $25 with shipping though. And I would have to open it to make sure it's the right version.

I seriously doubt it would net any more than MSRP on eBay even if the seller posted pix showing the difference. 90% of people don't care and another 5% would prefer the version with less grain visible.
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post #119 of 793 Old 09-18-2008, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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I got "Saw II" in a BV case with SAW 2 catalog sticker. They also had it in EMs with the same sticker. The case is actually the locking type - didn't know Lionsgate ever used those. Ring numbers are the NON-BV type so there goes the correlation between BV case and BV ring numbers...

Disc/movie sizes match benes' listing. Volume label is 47801970_SAW_TWO (authored 2006-12-05). Amazon lists the release date as 2007-02-06 (2 weeks after the release of "Saw III") while HDD says 2007-01-23. M2TS's have various dates.

The store also had copies of "First Blood" and some other Lionsgate title in both BVs and EMs with the unnumbered catalog stickers. With "Resevoir Dogs" that's 4 movies that don't match up sticker type to case type so there's no correlation there either, after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

There is also a July 2007 High Def Digest forum post claiming the same thing of Lionsgate's Young Guns release.

I didn't realize the situation for this one. HDD's review by Peter Bracke actually lists the codec as MPEG-2, so Josh Zyber in that thread questioned the existence of the AVC version. AVC is the one we know actually exists thanks to benes. Interestingly, Bracke's review notes "Street Date: February 06, 2007 (postponed from Oct 17, 2006)". Wonder if that has anything at all to do with anything. Blu-ray.com and DVDCompare.net say AVC. DVD Authority and DVD Town say MPEG-2.

The New PQ Tier Thread lists it as MPEG-2, but it also lists "Basic Instinct" directly beneath as MPEG-2 which no one has ever claimed as far as I know... Where does this info in the thread come from and who compiles it?

I got the only "Young Guns" copy the store had, in a BV with numbered sticker. I wasn't paying attention to this before but the "Saw II" sticker was the kind with the cutout around the Blu-ray logo while this one had the logo-destroying kind. Inserts are 9855VQBLURAY3 and 3000006555.

Movie is AVC, and specs match benes. Volume label is 76291568_A020344 (authored 2007-01-05). Released 2007-02-06. All files have the same date.

benes isn't kidding about jaggies on this one... my god. I first played it in PowerDVD and thought the software was doing some sort of downsizing and upsizing with the worst possible scaler. Same output on PS3 though. It's like viewing an image with 300% pixel zoom. If this isn't a terrible SD upscale I don't know what is. I think the SD DVD would look better than this on a non-upconverting DVD player through composite cables. The farthest away I can get from my 40" TV is 10 feet and it's not enough to blur away the aliasing on text. Literally unwatchable. Any reviewer that didn't rail against this should be sued, and Lionsgate should be ashamed of themselves.





Can someone note this in the DNR/EE/etc. thread? I'm too pissed off.

Back to the other stuff...

So far the indication is that getting a BV case with numbered sticker gives you a good chance of getting the AVC versions, if not guaranteed.

I don't think many people buy them around here so that would explain why the old versions are still hanging around for some titles. Of course you're also more likely to find them in higher-priced shops.
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post #120 of 793 Old 09-18-2008, 04:37 PM - Thread Starter
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So back to "The Descent" specifically, I made an SFV of the AVC disc's BDMV directory with subdirectories and ran it against the MPEG-2 disc's BDMV structure. This is after AACS decryption, as the M2TS files appear to be encrypted differently for each disc.

SFV files use CRC32s to check differences between files. If a single bit is changed the CRC should also change. So these are definitively all of the replaced files instead of the approximation provided by file sizes and modified dates.

Of 90 files, 71 are identical and 19 are different.

Code:
BDJO\\00000.bdjo
CLIPINF\\00002.clpi
CLIPINF\\00022.clpi
CLIPINF\\00024.clpi
CLIPINF\\00025.clpi
CLIPINF\\00030.clpi
JAR\\00000.jar
PLAYLIST\\00002.mpls
PLAYLIST\\00003.mpls
PLAYLIST\\00023.mpls
PLAYLIST\\00025.mpls
PLAYLIST\\00026.mpls
PLAYLIST\\00027.mpls
PLAYLIST\\00033.mpls
STREAM\\00002.m2ts
STREAM\\00022.m2ts
STREAM\\00024.m2ts
STREAM\\00025.m2ts
STREAM\\00030.m2ts
In other words, the 11 files I said were different before, plus 00000.bdjo and 7 of the 30 playlists (which are the same filesize on both discs). These are the playlists that reference the 5 changed M2TS files, so they were obviously updated to properly address the new files.

The only playback difference is that 00023.mpls (the menu playlist) runs for 1:14:26 on AVC and 1:14:22 on MPEG-2 - because the final frame of 00022.m2ts (the menu video) is removed on the MPEG-2 disc, and the video is repeated tons of times. The PS3 displays these runtimes if you hit "Display" during the menu, so a difference besides codec display could have been shown without PC details had people looked closer.

Or also, the added letterbox bar on the top of the MPEG-2 disc's menu:



Both menu videos are actually encoded in MPEG-2. In addition to the added bar, the MPEG-2 disc's menu has color and contrast tweaking similar to the MPEG-2 movie encode...

There's another menu video (00031.m2ts) without the flame, lens flare, etc. that's identical on both discs, and that playlist (00034.mpls) runs 1:14:26 on both. I don't think that video ever actually plays though, at least not on the PS3.

Instead 00022.m2ts is combined with pixellated images from BDMV\\JAR\\00001\\composite.png dynamically and then when you select options it uncovers the actual video underneath. Because of the overlaying, there's one detail in the image that extends beyond the letterboxing on the MPEG-2 disc's menu. When you select "Special Features" it morphs to show the video underneath and thus that bit of the image is covered up again. Strange how all of this is built up.

Whiggles and TommyV mentioned that 00030.m2ts isn't referenced, but it is, by 00033.mpls. BDInfo hides this and the menu playlists with default options checked ("Filter playlists that appear invalid"). Still no idea what this video is supposed to be or why it's different but it's MPEG-2 on both. For the AVC disc, BDInfo fails to generate graphs on the file and it can't be decoded by anything. For the MPEG-2 disc, BDInfo reports 11 frames according to the frame type counts chart and ffdshow generates a 10 frame video and decodes 5 frames of pure black before failing with the rest. Just a random oddity I suppose.

Decompressed JAR differences:



Nothing to see really. Of 54 files, 33 are identical, 20 are different, and 1 is removed entirely. The CLASS files are compiled Java and would need to be reverse engineered to figure out what was changed. What is interesting is that the CLASS files on the AVC disc were modified 2006-11-29 to 2006-12-01 and on the MPEG-2 from 2006-12-20 to 2006-12-21 (before the AVC version was even released).

Both discs are Region ABC.

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And now for what everyone really cares about, some more PIX. First the frames where the PiP window was gone for a few secs. I tried for same frame types most of the time, but check out how the "inferior" B-type AVC still trounces the MPEG-2 I-frames.

This is a fun one to compare as we can see how terrible this type of filtering is while still actually having a good version to watch. Plus there's the third version showing just how unnecessary it was for even lower bitrate MPEG-2.

21.56Mbps AVC vs 21.53Mbps MPEG-2 vs 15.91Mbps MPEG-2 PiP










And finally one like the Transformers shot that was mostly grain:
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