"The Dark Knight" PQ issues. - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 03:58 PM
 
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In your experience, did you find the shift in AR distracting or too jarring on your 106" screen? Do you believe the resulting similar resolution took the effect away, or the lack of screen real estate lessened the effect?

Distracting in the sense that it calls attention to the black bars, or lack of when the AR changes. Ideally, we like to be able to forget about the mattes in the video frame for 2.35:1 films, and usually, within a few minutes into a film, I do forget about the black bars. When the AR changes, it takes me out of that. Almost like an interruption in the movie.

BTW, I should point out again that, like the vast majority of people that saw this film theatrically, I saw it in a "regular" theater with a constant scope AR. The constant 2.40:1 matted 1080p version I have seen is actually more like the theatrical version I happen to be familiar with.
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post #272 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 04:07 PM
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Could somebody PM me the name of the site as well please.
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post #273 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 04:19 PM
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I'm with the group of people who think that if the shifting AR's version is preferable that the 35mm version should have pillar boxed the IMAX footage.
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post #274 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

OK. so I take it you're not sure what I mean by the 4th Wall?

what you mean by the fourth wall and what the phrase itself actually means are two different things.

you're using it meaning that the AR change takes you out of the movie. this may be the case, depending on the person. it didn't affect me while watching the IMAX, but i have a feeling i will notice it more on a smaller screen.

the phrase actually means when a character in a movie, tv show, etc acknowledges the audience. eg: Ferris Bueller, as has been mentioned.

you actually have a valid point re: the change taking you out of the "experience", but it's getting muddied up by your misuse of this term. your assumption that you are the sole arbiter of whether the director's intent is correct or not isn't helping either.
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post #275 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

The way I read it (and given the context of the current conversation), "the 4th wall" refers to a constant aspect ratio....

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Originally Posted by skippyrulz View Post

what you mean by the fourth wall and what the phrase itself actually means are two different things.

you're using it meaning that the AR change takes you out of the movie. this may be the case, depending on the person. it didn't affect me while watching the IMAX, but i have a feeling i will notice it more on a smaller screen.

the phrase actually means when a character in a movie, tv show, etc acknowledges the audience. eg: Ferris Bueller, as has been mentioned.

Thank you. I had never heard the term "4th wall" before, so I made assumptions (apparently wrong) based on the current context.

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post #276 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 06:23 PM
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Not sure I understand all the complaining. If there was something wrong with wanting something other the directors intent we wouldn't have movie reviews or be discussing movies at all because the whole movie is hopefully the directors intent. So, we would just say, "Too bad if you didn't like it, that's how the director intended it, " and that we be all of the discussion.

Although, I do agree that a director should have full say over what's in his movie and how it's represented afterwords. However, there is nothing wrong with discussion or wishing something had been done differently.

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post #277 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:03 PM
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I'd also like the site to order from if someone could PM it to me.
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post #278 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Vader424242 View Post

The way I read it (and given the context of the current conversation), "the 4th wall" refers to a constant aspect ratio, which Nolan broke. I am simply pointing out that the all elements contributing to a director's chosen visual style should be respected. For a long time, the battle of OAR raged against crop & chop presentations with the mantra "keep the director's intent," and now that it seems to be in opposition to some people's personal preferences, there seems to be a wee bit of backpedaling.



... in your opinion, anyway. I see no problem.

the dramatic 4th wall, which separates the audience from the idea that this is a piece of work, which allows you to be a part of the story...as it were. more importantly, where the piece of work, be it film or stage drama, is careful to maintain the illusion that you are not watching a piece of work. These are real people, characters...events, taken within the context of the the particular dramatic world.

shifting aspect ratio reminds you that hey, oh yeah...this is a movie. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a technical factor in film making. This really isn't the director's vision, this is director coming to terms that he can't shoot the entire thing on 70mm, so he opts to shoot a few pieces here and there, then says "what they hey! let's just throw it all in!"

You can call it a director's vision if you want, but it's a vision inspired by poor thought.

again, this isn't style, it's producers not doing their jobs when they should have.
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post #279 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by skippyrulz View Post

what you mean by the fourth wall and what the phrase itself actually means are two different things.

you're using it meaning that the AR change takes you out of the movie. this may be the case, depending on the person. it didn't affect me while watching the IMAX, but i have a feeling i will notice it more on a smaller screen.

the phrase actually means when a character in a movie, tv show, etc acknowledges the audience. eg: Ferris Bueller, as has been mentioned.

you actually have a valid point re: the change taking you out of the "experience", but it's getting muddied up by your misuse of this term. your assumption that you are the sole arbiter of whether the director's intent is correct or not isn't helping either.

it's not misuse. This is no different than a piece of text that speaks to the reader, the voice of the book saying "Hey, I'm a book, look at these people I'm shoeing you."

Film is text as well (remember, you can't start without a screenplay) that depends on visual cues.

Have you ever read any Calvino? same damn thing, but in film form.

Then again, I come more from the screenwriting world.
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post #280 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

You seem to be under the impression that the different aspect ratio was the primary motivation behind the IMAX presentation. It wasn't. Nolan wanted to show portions of the movie using 70mm IMAX film, with its greater detail. The post after yours explains why Nolan carried that over to the BR.

I think the issue is Warner wouldn't budget a full-on 70mm production, as that would be what any director would choose, if they wanted to go for spectacle. Rather than swallow his pride, he chose to mix.

In the end, arguing along this route comes to us speculating as to how Nolan came to this decision. Of course, I tend to believe I'm closer to the reality in looking at Nolan as being unwilling to compromise fully.
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post #281 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by skippyrulz View Post


you actually have a valid point re: the change taking you out of the "experience", but it's getting muddied up by your misuse of this term. your assumption that you are the sole arbiter of whether the director's intent is correct or not isn't helping either.

well again, I don't think Nolan had complete say over how he wanted to present this. He simply chose a middle-of-the road route by combining elements that, in my mind (clearly), are more distracting than advantageous.

It's not that I intend to be the sole arbiter of whether or not his intent is correct, it's simply that he violated a rather rigorous code when it comes to formatting for theatrical presentation. Call it his "vision," if you want. I call it him using the pull he has from the success of BB to experiment, or not fully cave to budget limitations.

Had he not been proven with previous work, no way in hell a producer worth their salt would have allowed multiple film stocks for experimental reasons on this type of flick.
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post #282 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

Nolan is a fine director. I've always liked his work. Directors are also human. You simply don't break the 4th wall in this type of film, and this is what Nolan did. It's idiotic.

The "abide by the director's intent" only applies when the director makes good choices. I feel that he flubbed this one.

I don't think you fully understand the concept of the 4th wall.
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post #283 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:48 PM
 
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So if Nolan decided to crop the entire film for blu-ray to 1.78 you'd be fine with it since it is his film?

I respect the work of an artist. Film making is an art. The filmmaker is an artist.
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post #284 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:51 PM
 
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Let's move on...this is a non issue at this point. We have received the preferred version of this film with the shifting aspect ratio intact. If you disagree with how a filmmaker makes their own film...well...I don't really know what to tell you.
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post #285 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:51 PM
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And I agree with Nolan's decision and would have been bitching if he decided to crop the IMAX shots to 2.35:1 AR. Hell, I'm annoyed they cropped them to 16:9.
He can't please everyone in this situation, so I think he should just go with what HE thinks is the appropriate presentation of his movie
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post #286 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 07:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

It's not that I intend to be the sole arbiter of whether or not his intent is correct, it's simply that he violated a rather rigorous code when it comes to formatting for theatrical presentation.

What code and how was it violated for theatrical presentation?

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Had he not been proven with previous work, no way in hell a producer worth their salt would have allowed multiple film stocks for experimental reasons on this type of flick.

Using more than one film stock isn't a new concept.
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post #287 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:02 PM
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Ok, i've been really watching this disc over and over. i have to change my initial response of 5/5 for PQ

The audio is great, but the vocal track is way too low. It's one of those soundtracks where you have to pump it up to reference level to enjoy it (think INDY IV). Yes, I know about the nightmode with THD.

PQ- It seems that indeed, edge enhancement is quite evident in certain medium to long shots, especially establishing shots. Moire patterns are so prominent, its to the point of distraction. I'm even seeing the patterns on people's ties! During the first shot of the film (helicopter establishing shot) I counted 4 separate patterns on buildings. During the sequence where Joker meets the mob discussing the money (pencil magic trick), the majority of the medium to long shots of mob guys sitting down has MAJOR edge enhancement while close up shots of Joker look fantastic. This seems to be a reoccurring procedure throughout the film. I just don't understand why they would do this. Some shots are simply stunning and jaw dropping, while others look very digitized with the edge enchantment switch turned up. Scratching my head on this one.

I'm watching on a 60" Elite Plasma (ISF calibrated) at 9-10 foot viewing distance with a BD-30
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post #288 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:11 PM
 
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I respect the work of an artist. Film making is an art. The filmmaker is an artist.

Sorry, that may be an idealist's view of filmmaking, but the reality, at least in terms of Hollywood, is that filmmaking is, at best, art by committee which is really just commerce. There is an old cliche in Hollywood that says, "they don't call it show art". With the exception of a literal handful of true auteurs, most filmmaking is the art of making money. I consider "art" the physical creation of an idea or vision for its own sake. Film is an artform, but one created primarily for the consumption of paying patrons, IE, the general public. Therefore, those for whom the product was created have every right to comment on its validity.

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Using more than one film stock isn't a new concept.

"Film stock" is not exactly accurate. I believe the poster that used this term meant "film formats", and that isn't new either. Doug Trumbull did it with Brainstorm years ago. That was a more appropriate use of mixing film formats than what Nolan did with TDK. Mixing different formats can be used for a dramatic effect in the proper context. I agree that The Dark Knight is not the proper context for this.
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post #289 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

Sorry, that may be an idealist's view of filmmaking, but the reality, at least in terms of Hollywood, is that filmmaking is, at best, art by committee which is really just commerce. There is an old cliche in Hollywood that says, "they don't call it show art". With the exception of a literal handful of true auteurs, most filmmaking is the art of making money. I consider "art" the physical creation of an idea or vision for its own sake. Film is an artform, but one created primarily for the consumption of paying patrons, IE, the general public. Therefore, those for whom the product was created for have every right to comment on its validity.

Regardless of your opinion versus mine...the preferred version of this film (according to those involved) includes a shifting aspect ratio. This is what we have been given. This is not our film...it is however theirs.
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post #290 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:21 PM
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Ahh, Brainstorm. Such a cool film. " In a few moments, you will experience something that will feel completely real"
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post #291 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by paul nyc View Post

I mean, I'm seeing moire patterns on ties.

I'm watching on a 60" Elite Plasma (ISF calibrated) at 9-10 foot viewing distance with a BD-30

Are you f$(#)ing serious?
On a Pioneer, well that should be nigh impossible.

A brand new release of a film that brought in a Billion Dollars and is the definition of a 'high profile title'? Moire patterns? Uggg. I was just angry about the extras at first.

I said it would be impossible for Warner to mess up the TDK release. I'll be damned they proved me wrong.

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post #292 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:30 PM
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Are you f$(#)ing serious?
On a Pioneer, well that should be nigh impossible.

A brand new release of a film that brought in a Billion Dollars and is the definition of a 'high profile title'? Moire patterns? Uggg. I was just angry about the extras at first.

I said it would be impossible for Warner to mess up the TDK release. I'll be damned they proved me wrong.

Don't get me wrong. It does have moments of perfection but damn, the EE is annoying. i just finished watching PRINCE CASPIAN and that is INCREDIBLE looking. Why couldn't WB do to TDK what Disney does to the majority of their titles?
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post #293 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

it's not misuse. This is no different than a piece of text that speaks to the reader, the voice of the book saying "Hey, I'm a book, look at these people I'm shoeing you."

Film is text as well (remember, you can't start without a screenplay) that depends on visual cues.

Have you ever read any Calvino? same damn thing, but in film form.

Then again, I come more from the screenwriting world.

it's absolutely misuse of the term to suit your purposes. breaking the fourth wall is not a shifting AR. it is Ferris Bueller looking directly at the camera and telling us, the audience, his plans, thus breaking the fourth wall.

what you're saying is that ANYTHING that makes you realize that you're reading a book or watching tv or a movie is breaking the fourth wall. by your definition, two-face's cgi face-burn in TDK is breaking the fourth wall. because it was ridiculous enough to bring me out of the movie.

i also "come from the screenwriting world" having written a couple myself, participated in workshops with well known writer/directors, and read everything from syd field to blogs about screenwriting. your usage of the term is wrong and bordering on the ridiculous.

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well again, I don't think Nolan had complete say over how he wanted to present this. He simply chose a middle-of-the road route by combining elements that, in my mind (clearly), are more distracting than advantageous.

It's not that I intend to be the sole arbiter of whether or not his intent is correct, it's simply that he violated a rather rigorous code when it comes to formatting for theatrical presentation. Call it his "vision," if you want. I call it him using the pull he has from the success of BB to experiment, or not fully cave to budget limitations.

Had he not been proven with previous work, no way in hell a producer worth their salt would have allowed multiple film stocks for experimental reasons on this type of flick.

IMAX is experimental now, is it? wow. i didn't realize. maybe someone should tell that to all the directors currently shooting or planning to shoot parts or entire films in IMAX format.

nolan is not the first person to use multiple ARs or film stock within one film. of the top of my head, i know Dr. Strangelove had multiple ARs as well.
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post #294 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:40 PM
 
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Regardless of your opinion versus mine...the preferred version of this film (according to those involved) includes a shifting aspect ratio. This is what we have been given. This is not our film...it is however theirs.

Last part first, who, exactly, is "they" (or "theirs)? A film's director is but one part of a very large ensemble of craftsmen, and very often not the one with the most control. A director's "vision", or preference, may not be the studio's, or the Producer's, and they may be the ones paying the bills and calling the shots. So when you say, the film is not ours, it's their's, the they is rather undefined.

More importantly in this specific case, even if the film's director has a preferred version of this film, it is actually one of at least two versions, the other being the one that the vast majority of people actually saw. As much as Nolan created the IMAX version of TDK, he also created the more conventional scope version. That makes that also the "director's intent" and equally valid.
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post #295 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:44 PM
 
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nolan is not the first person to use multiple ARs or film stock within one film. of the top of my head, i know Dr. Strangelove had multiple ARs as well.

Actually, Dr. Strangelove was not exhibited with multiple aspect ratios. Some shots were hard matted while others were full frame. Only the silly video transfer that was not properly matted showed this. Another case of a good director making a bad choice. But that is a whole other thread .
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This concept or belief that the filmmakers intent is not important...it is just beyond me.

Leonardo da Vinci should have painted Mona Lisa as a blonde.

Vincent van Gogh should have painted The Starry Night as a daytime scene.

Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach...all wrong.

Leo Tolstoy, Mark Twain, William Shakespeare, and F. Scott Fitzgerald...the really should have changed the endings.

Welles, Lang, Kazan, Hitchcock, Bergman, Altman, Chaplin, Bunuel, Kurosawa, Polanski, Stroheim, Sternberg, Sjostrom, Wilder, Angheolopoulos, Huston, Kubrick, Ford, Marx, Coppola, Fellini, Scorsese, Eisenstein, Edwards, Capra, Antonioni, Hawks, Aldritch, Lynch, Griffith, Renoir, De Sica, Kusturica, Peckinpah, Siegel, Truffaut, Von Trier, Tarkovskij, Wenders, Dovzenko, Spielberg, De Oliveira, Kiarostami, Lucas, Lubitsch, Murnau, Boorman, Bertolucci, Dreyer, Greenaway, Mizoguchi, Almodovar, Allen, Leone, Keaton, Kieslowski, Clair, Tarantino, Resnais, Ray, Olmi, Kitano, Chabrol, Mikhalkov, Curtiz, Herzog, DePalma, Kaurismaki, Svankmajer, Scott, Sturges, Ozu, Pudovkin, Powell, Rossellini, Leigh, Bresson, Coen, Fassbinder, Monicelli, Rohmer, Imamura, Visconti, Cukor, Ruiz, Weir, Wyler, Jancso, Minnelli, Sayles, Soderberg, Borzage, Quine, Godard, Lewis, Forman, Egoyan, Watkins, Loach, and Litvak...should we should go back and change the aspect ratio of their films as well? Pan and scan anyone?
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post #297 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by paul nyc View Post

Why couldn't WB do to TDK what Disney does to the majority of their titles?

Not just Disney. Tiny indies give better releases of everything Image, First Look, Magnolia. The Proposition even had a high bitrate TrueHD track I bet it averaged about 3.5Mbps none of that lossless lite that warner uses. And then you have Paramount giving you three hour making of docs in HD(no filler).

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

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post #298 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 08:57 PM
 
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Last part first, who, exactly, is "they" (or "theirs)? A film's director is but one part of a very large ensemble of craftsmen, and very often not the one with the most control. A director's "vision", or preference, may not be the studio's, or the Producer's, and they may be the ones paying the bills and calling the shots. So when you say, the film is not ours, it's their's, the they is rather undefined.

More importantly in this specific case, even if the film's director has a preferred version of this film, it is actually one of at least two versions, the other being the one that the vast majority of people actually saw. As much as Nolan created the IMAX version of TDK, he also created the more conventional scope version. That makes that also the "director's intent" and equally valid.

"They/them/their/those/etc" includes the filmmakers...all who are/were involved.

Yes...there are two versions, but one is preferred by those involved over the other. Nolan created both, but preferred the IMAX version. Either way, it doesn't really matter. We have been given the version which most closely resembles what was intended by those involved.

I for one always hope that the director/producer/actor/etc intent and vision is preserved, rather than mutated to suit the needs of a viewer.
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post #299 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

The Proposition even had a high bitrate TrueHD track I bet it averaged about 3.5Mbps none of that lossless lite that warner uses.

"Lossless lite?" I thought something was either lossless or it's not. You mean, it has to reach a certain bitrate in order to be "non-lossless-lite?"

Damn, bit-meter-enjoyment and spec-whoring have reached a whole new level.

*************************************************

Still looking for a movie theatre that shows movies the way they're SUPPOSED to be viewed...



...with a bitrate meter and screencaps.
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post #300 of 1074 Old 11-22-2008, 09:02 PM
 
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This concept or belief that the filmmakers intent is not important...it is just beyond me.

If you are referring to something I posted, please re-read. I never said the "director's intent" was not important. My point is that we rarely know what is "director's intent" and what is the director doing what he is paid to do, or what he thinks will be more popular.

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Leonardo da Vinci should have painted Mona Lisa as a blonde.

Vincent van Gogh should have painted The Starry Night as a daytime scene.

Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach...all wrong.

Leo Tolstoy, Mark Twain, William Shakespeare, and F. Scott Fitzgerald...the really should have changed the endings.

Bogus examples. You are comparing true art to commercial filmmaking, which isn't. And all those things you just cited, Hollywood either has done or would do if it meant making a buck.
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