"The Dark Knight" PQ issues. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILJG View Post

Can I just ask the two of you if you really liked the movie itself? And therefore planned on buying it for the really radical reason of, I don't know, actually watching it more than once?

Just curious. I realize DNR and EE aren't acceptable, I'm just curious.


My favorite movie of the year and my favorite comic book movie ever. It kills me that I wont be able to own it. I refuse to support garbage like this transfer.
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post #542 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:00 PM
 
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this would be a(nother) great opportunity to write/phone mass complaints to warner
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post #543 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:03 PM
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Hard to do a proper comparison between Blu-ray and trailer (different framing, colors, contrast, low bitrate...)
but these two shots give you an idea:

Blu-ray:hxxp://img.phyrefile.com/johnhd/2008/11/24/3.png
Trailer: hxxp://img.phyrefile.com/johnhd/2008/11/24/4.png

sorry, can't post URL's
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post #544 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILJG View Post

I'm not picking on you, I promise, but this is an unfortunate side-effect of arm-chair encoder quarterbacking.

People who haven't even seen the BD yet are posting things like this. While people are entitled to post about problems they've actually seen, people taking those opinions and trying to use them as facts before even experiencing the movie is kind of sad. If you want 100% consensus on a "perfect pq/aq title," you'll never get that here, or anywhere, for that matter.

And the usual spec-whores will be out in droves, to jump on the bandwagon at any chance they get when they get the news that an artifact (perceived or otherwise) is even hinted at. You know, those who will NEVER be satisfied until they can watch a movie with their video bitrate meter pinned at 40mbps for the entire movie, the audio bitrate meter pinned at 4 mbps for the entire movie, and with the entire mux somehow totaling the theoretical 54 mbps... and then, and only then, if all of the 50 GIG of the disk is used...since they know better than everyone that it's the bitrate and file size that determine the PQ/AQ of a movie.

Anything less than those specs that will cause "less than perfect PQ/AQ" encode to them....and will result in complaints and screenshot after screenshot of artifacts and their own definitive statements that if the max bitrates and full disc space had been used, the title would then have "perfect PQ/AQ," and how the studio is screwing them until the above encode with maximum bitrate and file size is produced.

I thought the codec choices were funny enough with all this spec-mongering, until someone posted something like "something below 3.5 mbps for audio is lossless lite." (Funny, either something is lossless, or it's not, right?) Another post, which was actually a review, said (paraphrased) "they were concerned about the bit meter only reading 21 and people might find artifacts because of this." It didn't mention any artifacts specifically, or give a time stamp, or even a general idea or impression of a specific kind of artifact, it just said that the bitrate was low and gave the number, so therefore people might see these undefined problems. Seriously, this is what it has come to.

My suggestion? Watch and listen to the movie for yourself. I know it might be REALLY hard to watch it without the bitrate meter...but just for the heck of it....give it a shot. If you want total agreement on "perfect PQ/AQ," you'll never get it. Even when you have the luxury of a re-encode showing that more bits and disc space are thrown at it, and didn't improve the PQ/AQ (say, like Transformers) because heaven forbid there's such a thing as diminishing returns and that the studios doing the actual encodes might know a little more than the self-appointed experts here, you'll never get a consensus on PQ and AQ that shouldn't even be necessary for YOU to determine what YOU like.


This post pretty much sums up why I rarely visit AVS anymore. It's like every single thread eventually degenerates into this kind of nonsense. It's boring. More than 12 pages of posts on a thread about a disc almost no one has seen yet!

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post #545 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie76 View Post

That picture looks horrible compared to the BD.
Looked like someone REALLY ****ed up the color timing

I won't dispute things like tint unless the production crew themselves identify which is more at fault in that regards. All moot anyway, as this is not about attacking the trailer for what could be flaws, it's about proving that there is a serious lack of clarity in the Blu-ray transfer.

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post #546 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty James View Post

This post pretty much sums up why I rarely visit AVS anymore. It's like every single thread eventually degenerates into this kind of nonsense. It's boring. More than 12 pages of posts on a thread about a disc almost no one has seen yet!

Yep, I am disappointed that the movie doesn't look as good as the trailer.. But guess what, that happens all the time. I am not going to not buy this because of color timings and sharpening due to IMAX. I wish they it was flawless, but it isn't so I am not going to lose sleep over it.

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post #547 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty James View Post

More than 12 pages of posts on a thread about a disc almost no one has seen yet!

I agree and I never go by photos posted on site, I need to see it on mine to see how it looks. I reckon it would be good.

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post #548 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Franin View Post

I agree and I never go by photos posted on site, I need to see it on mine to see how it looks. I reckon it would be good.

Exactly.. You'd be doing yourself a huge disservice by going by photos.


BTW, nice freaking home theater!! Love the sound and look of those Focals as well!
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post #549 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHD View Post

Hard to do a proper comparison between Blu-ray and trailer (different framing, colors, contrast, low bitrate...)
but these two shots give you an idea:

Blu-ray:hxxp://img.phyrefile.com/johnhd/2008/11/24/3.png
Trailer: hxxp://img.phyrefile.com/johnhd/2008/11/24/4.png

sorry, can't post URL's

I shifted them to make it easier to tab and see the differences.

Trailer


Blu-ray

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post #550 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

I won't dispute things like tint unless the production crew themselves identify which is more at fault in that regards. All moot anyway, as this is not about attacking the trailer for what could be flaws, it's about proving that there is a serious lack of clarity in the Blu-ray transfer.


If there is a serious lack of clarity in TDK transfer, I must have a different disk. It looks fine; I doubt most will be disappointed with it, unless you're really anal about these things. I am extremely happy with my purchase, and suggest anyone on the fence as far as PQ is concerned should ignore the trailer comparisons and naysayers and purchase it. The double-dip theory is a relevant concern, but quality-wise there's nothing here to prevent a purchase imo.
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post #551 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:32 PM
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You should note that the top image is the trailer and the bottom is the Blu.
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post #552 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

I shifted them to make it easier to tab and see the differences.

How do you set up Tab to the correct place on the screen?

Genius is an insult to my intelligence!

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post #553 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patsfan123 View Post

Yep, I am disappointed that the movie doesn't look as good as the trailer.. But guess what, that happens all the time. I am not going to not buy this because of color timings and sharpening due to IMAX. I wish they it was flawless, but it isn't so I am not going to lose sleep over it.

That's completely nonsense, because thanks to Warner adding DNR, EE and whatever else to hurt the resolution, I'm going to see an even more dramatic drop in detail after the IMAX shots.

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post #554 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pincho View Post

How do you set up Tab to the correct place on the screen?

Firefox, Internet Explorer, Opera, and other browsers have tabbed browsing. In Firefox, it's File > New Tab or Ctrl+T. Open 2 new tabs and open a JPG in each one. If you still have questions, just ask.

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post #555 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briankmonkey View Post

Exactly.. You'd be doing yourself a huge disservice by going by photos.


BTW, nice freaking home theater!! Love the sound and look of those Focals as well!

Thanks mate

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post #556 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babrown92 View Post

My favorite movie of the year and my favorite comic book movie ever. It kills me that I wont be able to own it. I refuse to support garbage like this transfer.

It's your favorite comic movie of all time, and your favorite of the year, but you're not going to buy it (in any way, shape, or form) for repeated viewing?

And you're going to make this determination solely based on screenshots and opinions here?

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post #557 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Pincho View Post

How do you set up Tab to the correct place on the screen?

It's Ok I've got it working. These two pictures from the same time frame have the same lighting, and the police belts are identical, there are far fewer problems, and the Blu Ray looks a lot better than before... just pinker... and the EE looks even worse.

I don't really mind EE, I'm still definitely buying it, I already have it on Pre-order. The EE still could be a contrast problem as well, as it seems to be worse by black objects against light backgrounds.

Genius is an insult to my intelligence!

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post #558 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ILJG View Post

My suggestion? Watch and listen to the movie for yourself.

I agree. OTOH this thread exists so you don't waste your money if PQ is important to you. My suggestion would be to borrow a copy from your friend just to check out the PQ/AQ before spending any money on rental or purchase. What is the big rush? If you rationale is to show off your home-theater on Thanksgiving, there are better blu-rays that you can use anyways.
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post #559 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

That's completely nonsense, because thanks to Warner adding DNR, EE and whatever else to hurt the resolution, I'm going to see an even more dramatic drop in detail after the IMAX shots.



Really, I think you guys are worrying over nothing. TDK is a great transfer, and I predict it will review very highly on the PQ front. Is it perfect? I don't think any transfer is absolutely perfect, but it looks great. Are people seriously not gonna buy this thing because of EE on a guy's pants leg?
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post #560 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perineumlick View Post

If there is a serious lack of clarity in TDK transfer, I must have a different disk. It looks fine; I doubt most will be disappointed with it, unless you're really anal about these things. I am extremely happy with my purchase, and suggest anyone on the fence as far as PQ is concerned should ignore the trailer comparisons and naysayers and purchase it. The double-dip theory is a relevant concern, but quality-wise there's nothing here to prevent a purchase imo.

Feel free to have your opinion. Just don't attack me for having mine, please.

P.S. You're the same perineumlick from IGN, right? *waves*

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post #561 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ILJG View Post

It's your favorite comic movie of all time, and your favorite of the year, but you're not going to buy it (in any way, shape, or form) for repeated viewing?

I think he is saying that while the movie is important, the PQ is equally or more important to him. Who are we to second guess his priorities?
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post #562 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:48 PM
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Its because this is an extremely high profile title that the critiquing bar has been raised, and people on both sides have legit points. Some will use anything spotted short of perfection as a chance to complain (in some cases, even stating it looks like "garbage to them" - please, if you've watched it on BR already and think this is truly garbage, you should stick to VHS), while others can only gush because they simply love the flick so much, they may even refuse to acknowledge its merely a very nice looking title (yes, it sounds great to ).

It was a blind buy for me (yeah, I'm that one nut that missed it in the theater) so I have no preconscrewed () ideas/attachment about the movie and I think it looks very good by home media standards, far superior to dvd, not perf, not demo/benchmark material (actually, some of it IS, some not) but you sure won't be "ashamed" to pop this one in to show off your system if you had nothing else. There is just no way on earth you can even begin to think the greatest upscaling DVD player in the world will get you close to the Blu Ray version, fagetaboutit. Don't let a few grabs from a paused scene or two (that last a few quick seconds in real time) that someone had to fish for (while sitting close to the sceen no doubt) and then toss up to prove the point that its not perfect ruin it for ya. And I still say that its no fault of the transfer itself if you happen to like the look of the trailer grab over the BR - the halo's are around the legs of the police in that one as well (not to mention the bottom of the US flag), its just far more apparent on the BR because of the stark contrast diff.

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post #563 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

Feel free to have your opinion. Just don't attack me for having mine, please.

P.S. You're the same perineumlick from IGN, right? *waves*



Yeah, that's me. And why would you think I'm attacking you? I haven't accused you of anything or called any names; just voicing my opinion, as I've watched the Blu Ray several times already.
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post #564 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

That's completely nonsense, because thanks to Warner adding DNR, EE and whatever else to hurt the resolution, I'm going to see an even more dramatic drop in detail after the IMAX shots.

Warner never adds EE to anything, its been established the sharping was added to the IMAX DMR transfer intentional or not. The only tweaking they do to Blu-rays is a slight DNR or grain removal filter. I am not sure exactly.

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post #565 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:54 PM
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You guys realize that studios do a color grade for promotional trailers independent of the final color grade of their film right?

It sounds like most people here prefer the trailer's "look" over the final grade which was obviously the cinematographer/director's "intent."
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post #566 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta Tester View Post

I think he is saying that while the movie is important, the PQ is equally or more important to him. Who are we to second guess his priorities?

Yes, it's his decision to make. If he wants to make his decision of an entire film's PQ based on a few screenshots and the opinions of a few online posts, that is certainly up to him.

I just question the validity of anyone claiming a movie is their favorite of the year, and their favorite ever in a genre...but then refusing to buy its best possible presentation (or any presentation, for that matter) based upon a conclusion arrived at in such a way.

And my posting of that doubt is just fine, too.

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post #567 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 05:07 PM
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Ya know...that trailer/final version comparison was bugging me..so i reviewed the whole scene, which includes many wide parade shots and interiors. And in motion..that shot is not that offensive. The whole scene takes place on a somewhat sunny day.

So..I went to trailer..pulled 4 shots, compared them to the Digital Copy(which is timed the same way the Blu is)..and..

TRAILER


DIGITAL COPY (Blu-Ray)


TRAILER


DIGITAL COPY (Blu-Ray)


TRAILER


DIGITAL COPY (Blu-Ray)


TRAILER


DIGITAL COPY (Blu-Ray)


I'll take the final release. Thanks.
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post #568 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 05:10 PM
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This keeps reminding me more and more of the nasty green shift in the Final Cut of Blade Runner.
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post #569 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 05:21 PM
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post #570 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Yes, and I think this whole thing is being blown WAY out of proportion honestly. However, I am no expert (which I am glad about as ignorance is bliss it seems with PQ), but I know what my eyes like and dont like and if the dvdbeaver shots are accurate, I am VERY satisfied with the PQ on this release. I think this release in particular is getting way more scrutinized because it is the biggest BR release this year hands down.

Is that not a damn good reason? This is the biggest blu-ray to date, and it should've absolutely been a reference quality disc.
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