"The Dark Knight" PQ issues. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Pincho View Post

Is it possible that some scenes were filmed once for Imax, and then again for standard aspect?...maybe?

or that they had multiple cameras running simultaneously, which is usually the case. as for dolly and crane shots though...unlikely. I'd think they re-shoot in those instances, if this was their protocol.
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post #632 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

well, let's be honest here.

it is the uber geeks that made this flick so successful. the ones that saw this 5+ times in the theater? yeah...super geeks.

they are the ones that will be pissed about image quality, and their sales *may indeed* be lost for now.

so...what happens when that 70% of the market for this film disappears?

"Oh, the horror!"

I agree with your argument, that the 1% PQ niche market is but a fly in the studios' mind, but this is a super geek flick. They may indeed rule this one....

Um, I hate to break it to you, but "geeks" alone can't get a movie to $525 million domestic. If that was the case, all 3 of the SW prequels, the Spider-Man movies, the LOTR trilogy, Iron Man, etc. would've all done the same kind of business. This movie had a much wider appeal than just the market you seem to be focusing on.
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post #633 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

Would that include Disney, the studio that released two of the worst Blu-ray titles, GANGS OF NEW YORK and SCARY MOVIE?

Certainly every studio has had their share of dud releases, but unlike most other majors, Warner seems to have mindset of least effort required - putting low bitrate lossy soundtracks on a lot of movie releases plus all their tv releases and 16bit lossless otherwise, whereas other studios often give 24bit tracks and even looking at 6.1 and 7.1
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post #634 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by daedalusdemands View Post

Certainly every studio has had their share of dud releases, but unlike most other majors, Warner seems to have mindset of least effort required - putting low bitrate lossy soundtracks on a lot of movie releases plus all their tv releases and 16bit lossless otherwise, whereas other studios often give 24bit tracks and even looking at 6.1 and 7.1

So this is only about numbers and specs then? What about HOW THE WEST WAS WON? That's probably the greatest restoration I've seen yet on High-Def media. Or do the bit-rates on that title not qualify it as such for you?

Vincent
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post #635 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

well, let's be honest here.

it is the uber geeks that made this flick so successful. the ones that saw this 5+ times in the theater? yeah...super geeks.

they are the ones that will be pissed about image quality, and their sales *may indeed* be lost for now.

so...what happens when that 70% of the market for this film disappears?

"Oh, the horror!"

I agree with your argument, that the 1% PQ niche market is but a fly in the studios' mind, but this is a super geek flick. They may indeed rule this one....


Are you joking? Every one of these "uber geeks" will buy at the very least 1 copy as well as EVERYONE in this forum no matter what they say here. The fact of the matter is this is the best home presentation of this movie by far and who is going to pass that up even in light of the minor "issues"? IF a better version comes out at some point, the vast majority of people (and ALL the "uber geeks") in this forum will double dip. This BR will break all sorts of sales records. You put WAY to much weight in the voices of only a VERY, VERY, VERY small percentage of NAY sayers. Nothing can hurt the sales of this title at this point especialy in light of the "profesional" reviews that are being released which are all giving pretty much top marks and are keeping the so called "issues" in perspective.

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post #636 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post



Every time someone on AVS complains about this release a Batman cries....

best post of the thread.

I award you 4 Internets.

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post #637 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:52 PM
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High-Def-Digest review.
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post #638 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Are you joking? Every one of these "uber geeks" will buy at the very least 1 copy as well as EVERYONE in this forum no matter what they say here. The fact of the matter is this is the best home presentation of this movie by far and who is going to pass that up even in light of the minor "issues"? IF a better version comes out at some point, the vast majority of people (and ALL the "uber geeks") in this forum will double dip. This BR will break all sorts of sales records. You put WAY to much weight in the voices of only a VERY, VERY, VERY small percentage of NAY sayers. Nothing can hurt the sales of this title at this point especialy in light of the "profesional" reviews that are being released which are all giving pretty much top marks and are keeping the so called "issues" in perspective.

whoa whoa whoa!....touched a nerve with this one

settle down people.

here, have a donut.
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post #639 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:02 PM
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there is no version available without the constant flip flopping aspect ratio ?
this will annoy A LOT people for instance with scope screens....

from HIGHDEFDIGEST:

''Presented theatrically in both standard 35mm and IMAX formats, 'The Dark Knight' is framed here in alternating aspect ratios. The majority of the film is 2.40:1, while the IMAX-filmed segments open up to 1.78:1. Personally, I found the flip-flopping at times slightly distracting. While the jump between compositions isn't that jarring when it comes after long scenes (such as the opening, which is 1.78:1), there are times when a single shot will be presented in its own aspect ratio (such as the beginning of the "love boat" sequence), and that can irritate. The upside is that the IMAX material does display a noticeable uptick in clarity and resolution. The 35mm-based footage is certainly no slouch, but there is an added sharpness and depth to the IMAX-originated footage that raises the bar for what Blu-ray is capable of.''
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post #640 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

whoa whoa whoa!....touched a nerve with this one

settle down people.

here, have a donut.

This whole thread has touched a nerve! I dont eat donuts by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

there is no version available without the constant flip flopping aspect ratio ?
this will annoy A LOT people for instance with scope screens....

from HIGHDEFDIGEST:

''Presented theatrically in both standard 35mm and IMAX formats, 'The Dark Knight' is framed here in alternating aspect ratios. The majority of the film is 2.40:1, while the IMAX-filmed segments open up to 1.78:1. Personally, I found the flip-flopping at times slightly distracting. While the jump between compositions isn't that jarring when it comes after long scenes (such as the opening, which is 1.78:1), there are times when a single shot will be presented in its own aspect ratio (such as the beginning of the "love boat" sequence), and that can irritate. The upside is that the IMAX material does display a noticeable uptick in clarity and resolution. The 35mm-based footage is certainly no slouch, but there is an added sharpness and depth to the IMAX-originated footage that raises the bar for what Blu-ray is capable of.''

You dont want to see the film the way it was meant to be seen?

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post #641 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

So this is only about numbers and specs then? What about HOW THE WEST WAS WON? That's probably the greatest restoration I've seen yet on High-Def media. Or do the bit-rates on that title not qualify it as such for you?

Vincent

See that kind of goes hand in hand with Warner's 'issues'. Disney 'accidental' discs happen to be horrible. And with Warner their 'accidental' discs are really really pretty.

I have my fingers crossed that it's just the parade shot that looks bad. And the reviews didn't mention any of the moire patters that paul nyc said he saw.

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post #642 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This BR will break all sorts of sales records.

Too true, unfortunately. I don't think I'll ever see the end of these horridly EEd transfers
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post #643 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

This whole thread has touched a nerve! I dont eat donuts by the way.



You dont want to see the film the way it was meant to be seen?

since it was mostly shown in 2.40 worldwide with only a few rare places on IMAX, i think it would have been better to propose two versions, be it second disc or another blu ray.
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post #644 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

How was this projected in the theaters? I wonder if many cut corners and masked to one ratio or if some went through the trouble to automate the ratio change.
For those who had the opportunity how did you see the theatrical screening?

dito don't like it either.
of course ANYONE would love the IMAX massive resolution.
but the changing AR without being able to select the version you want (IMAX presentation with changing AR or 2.40:1 constant AR) is a big negative.

those with 16.9 screens probably will say they are not bothered at all...
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post #645 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Pereira View Post

So this is all about numbers then? What about HOW THE WEST WAS WON? That's probably the greatest restoration I've seen yet on High-Def media. Or do the bit-rates on that title not qualify it as such for you?

No but I don't think that disqualifies my statement about Warner's general attitude on blu-ray.

IMO, Warner's effort in restorations areone of the most impressive of the studios, although that is not effort solely directed towards blu-ray.
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post #646 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

there is no version available without the constant flip flopping aspect ratio ?
this will annoy A LOT people for instance with scope screens....

from HIGHDEFDIGEST:

''Presented theatrically in both standard 35mm and IMAX formats, 'The Dark Knight' is framed here in alternating aspect ratios. The majority of the film is 2.40:1, while the IMAX-filmed segments open up to 1.78:1. Personally, I found the flip-flopping at times slightly distracting. While the jump between compositions isn't that jarring when it comes after long scenes (such as the opening, which is 1.78:1), there are times when a single shot will be presented in its own aspect ratio (such as the beginning of the "love boat" sequence), and that can irritate. The upside is that the IMAX material does display a noticeable uptick in clarity and resolution. The 35mm-based footage is certainly no slouch, but there is an added sharpness and depth to the IMAX-originated footage that raises the bar for what Blu-ray is capable of.''

You'll have to wait for Warner Bros. to pull they're crap and release the "Ultimate Version" of The Dark Knight sometime in 2009 like they have done with movies like I Am Legend & 300 this year.

Typical Warner Bros. BS
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post #647 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 42041 View Post

Too true, unfortunately. I don't think I'll ever see the end of these horridly EEd transfers

There has never been a serious Warner Bros. EE problem for Blu-ray discs. Yes, there are other problems, but WB has thankfully steered away from the EE. The sharpening on this disc is due to them using the IMAX print apparently. Is that an issue for some people? Absolutely. But one thing it is not is any kind of sign that WB purposefully altered the transfer to 'appease J6P' or anything like that, and nor does it imply that future WB discs will have EE (unless this IMAX thing really catches on!).
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post #648 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

since it was mostly shown in 2.40 worldwide with only a few rare places on IMAX, i think it would have been better to propose two versions, be it second disc or another blu ray.

Everything I have read has pointed to the directors vision being variable AR for this movie. This is how I want to see it. The 2.40 showings from what I gather is not the way this was meant to be seen. I find it interesting that the CIH crowd, most of which push for OAR on every other release besides this one, are upset over this because it does not correspond well with their setups.

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post #649 of 1074 Old 11-24-2008, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Everything I have read has pointed to the directors vision being variable AR for this movie. This is how I want to see it. The 2.40 showings from what I gather is not the way this was meant to be seen. I find it interesting that the CIH crowd, most of which push for OAR on every other release besides this one, are upset over this because it does not correspond well with their setups.

+1

But I don't know if the IMAX has the same effect at home, since in theaters the IMAX has an increased resolution over the traditional film stock, but at home your just stuck with the max BD spec resolution for both.

Weinstein released the Mist with the theatrical version on one disc and then the director's preferred version on a second disc. Without compromising price, quality, or extras. So....(since there specific shots though, I can't help but be bothered by thinking that seamless branching could have made this easier for everyone)

Ridiculous codec tier sig gone. Still AVC/24bit lossless fanboy.

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post #650 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 12:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

Weinstein released the Mist with the theatrical version on one disc and then the director's preferred version on a second disc. Without compromising price, quality, or extras. So....(since there specific shots though, I can't help but be bothered by thinking that seamless branching could have made this easier for everyone)

Seemless branching would work, but it would take some more work. (Since they cant use the IMAX master anymore.)

But considering what a good job they did with Blade runner, I guess they could do it to this movie, considering that this movie will most likly be the best sold BD movie ever.

But I hoping a new deluxe edition gets released to the awards.

Good movies are as rare as an on topic discussion.
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post #651 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history2b View Post

You guys realize that studios do a color grade for promotional trailers independent of the final color grade of their film right?
It sounds like most people here prefer the trailer's "look" over the final grade which was obviously the cinematographer/director's "intent."

The color correction is not the issue, the application of the crude sharpening filter is, turning everything from a film look into a coarse, ringing HDcam look.
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post #652 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowrage View Post

+1

But I don't know if the IMAX has the same effect at home, since in theaters the IMAX has an increased resolution over the traditional film stock, but at home your just stuck with the max BD spec resolution for both.

Weinstein released the Mist with the theatrical version on one disc and then the director's preferred version on a second disc. Without compromising price, quality, or extras. So....(since there specific shots though, I can't help but be bothered by thinking that seamless branching could have made this easier for everyone)

+1: seamless branching, options for the consumers. it could have been done. perhaps it will be
only the dvd as Constant AR

Mhafner: very sad indeed. sharpening to try to reduce the difference in vertical resolution between the two formats, decided for the IMAX presentation in fact. so, 'source'
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post #653 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pincho View Post

I don't really mind EE, I'm still definitely buying it, I already have it on Pre-order. The EE still could be a contrast problem as well, as it seems to be worse by black objects against light backgrounds.

The EE is not a contrast problem. You can have high contrast without EE. But it's correct that EE is best visible at high contrast edges. Why? Because EE and sharpening in general boost selected frequency ranges and filter response depends on filter input. When the input has already high frequency content filter response is strong(est). And the result are these halos or ringing. The rest of the image is affected too. The image quality degrading effect is everywhere in the image. It's at the edges where you see it best. The effect is a layer of extra frequency content that veils original detail and gives the image a harsher and coarser and digitally processed look, typical of older video camera output and very unfilmlike. There is technically ZERO justification for doing such a thing unless one actually wants to degrade image quality on purpose or is trying to fool unsuspecting customers into thinking that the picture is really sharp when looked at from a distance or a display where full 1080p detail is not visible/available.
Do you like being taken for a ride? That's exactly what happens with this kind of processing.
What's especially vexing with sharpening like this is that
a) if some customer really digs that heavily processed video look he can easily create it at home on his display with the sharpening control from the not sharpened version on the disc. To not sharpen the image like this is a win-win situation. The videophiles can have their beloved film look and the others who don't care or want the video look can create it from the original look.
b) there are detail enhancement algorithms that do not add these ugly artifacts all over the image and can keep the film look intact to a larger degree and still make detail appear sharper. Sharpening like on the parade shot is sledgehammer style and perfectly avoidable. And given how it looked before sharpening completely unnecessary.
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post #654 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul nyc View Post

Watch it again and you may notice more. You mentioned 2 scenes with moire. Try the 1st shot of the film, you'll notice moire on the buildings. Try any internal shot of where the tumbler and costume are stored. The ceiling with the lights have extensive ringing. There's more but i can't think of specific scenes ATM

Specifically, the carved vertical lines on the stone building on the right as the camera closes in on the building with the glass facade.
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post #655 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 03:10 AM
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"Unfortunately, my caveat is that there is edge enhancement that results in visible edge halos. While the encode is otherwise rock solid -- I found no artifacts, such as aliasing or pixelization -- the edge enhancement, if slight, is clearly visible in longer shots (such as the parade sequence). It is the only element of this presentation that deserves any knocks, though hardly a fatal flaw. In all other respects, 'The Dark Knight' is a stunner."
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post #656 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 03:15 AM
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question is : is this a DVD trend affecting blu ray now ? or was it because the 35mm was sharpened for the IMAX presentation ?

so far warner blu ray are quite pleasing to me. sad....
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post #657 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 03:30 AM
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Start copy and pasting those "pro" reviews.

This is not going to be pretty.
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post #658 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 04:01 AM
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Since my earlier post about cancelling my pre-order was singled out, I'd like to clarify: I intend to rent this BD instead of buying it. And maybe one day I'll buy it if it drops below $10.
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post #659 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 04:05 AM
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Here you go guys:
The Dark Knight features BD-Live chat with Chris Nolan for first 100,000

The opportunity you have been waiting for:
"Mr Nolan. Hello. My name is _ _ _ _ _ - you may have heard of me from my screenshot analysis work at AVSforum.com. I was wondering why you would let WB brutally massacre your film on it's bluray home video release. It literally looks like VHS on my _ _ _ inch screen and makes me want to throw up. Thank you in advance for your response".

Of course you actually have to buy this monstrosity of a bluray to be able to partake in the chat. I know that will be painful. If you do not want to purchase it, I am sure the DVD looks better, as well as the version from AppleTV, etc.
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post #660 of 1074 Old 11-25-2008, 04:10 AM
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Some people saying that Warner may cash in on a second release of this title has made me think....

mod edit: We don't allow promotion or links to other forums.

I personally don't think that many people will double dip on a Blu Ray title.

Genius is an insult to my intelligence!

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