Subtitles in Letterbox - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a list somewhere for movies that display subtitles within the movie frame and not the black letterbox bars?
Thanks
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post #2 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 05:52 PM
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There are plenty BDs that have subtitles above lower black bar thus the subs is in the picture frame,this will get most advantage of cinemascope screen.The studios support ths issue are FOX UNIVERSAL PARAMOUNTwith DREAMWORK LUCAS'S FILM.SONY and WARNER should change the subtitles issue like most of studios,just my humble opinion.
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post #3 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 06:53 PM
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Personally, it wrecks my head having the subs in the bar area. I'd rather have it in the image everytime. Ooooooooh, controversy!!!
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post #4 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 08:11 PM
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This is one of Blu-ray's disappointments to me. This is supposed to be the next generation format, yet we're still stuck with standardized subtitles.

There's no reason that viewers shouldn't have control of both subtitle font size and placement. The needs of someone watching a movie on a 42" screen vary from one watching on a 120" screen, yet they're both stuck with the same subtitle presentation.

It's sad that they're not taking advantage of the format the way they could on most (if not all) titles.

Scott

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post #5 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 08:26 PM
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Are we talking about subtitles that were part of the theatrical presentation of a film (eg, foreign languages being translated within an English-language film), or about encoded titles (eg, English subtitles for a foreign-language film)?

IMO, the former should be left alone while the latter should be user-controllable.

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post #6 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srw1000 View Post

This is one of Blu-ray's disappointments to me. This is supposed to be the next generation format, yet we're still stuck with standardized subtitles.

There's no reason that viewers shouldn't have control of both subtitle font size and placement. The needs of someone watching a movie on a 42" screen vary from one watching on a 120" screen, yet they're both stuck with the same subtitle presentation.

It's sad that they're not taking advantage of the format the way they could on most (if not all) titles.

Scott

Blu-ray is a step backward from DVDs in this regard. There are DVD players, (e.g. Samsung EzyView and Theater Tek sw player) capable of repositioning subtitles. However, so-called protected video path of blu-ray does not allow the manufactures to interfere with the video path and reposition raster-image based subtitles (unless BDA/Sony develops certified code to achieve this). The movable ascii based subs do not work consistently on all blu-ray players (probably due to some screw-up in the BD-J subtitle specs). Therefore Studios do not use ascii based subs.

It is really a shame on the developers of blu-ray specs that this trivial issue of subtitle repositioning ended up like this.

This impacts millions of zoomers/blackbar-haters in non-English-speaking countries and I do not understand the reasons that BDA/Sony and Studios do not solve this major issue.

Passive movie watching is a proven business for decades. The major focus of the Studios should be to provide best movie watching experience to everybody and shift people to watch more movies rather than them reading magazines or watch sports. It appears that they have lost the focus on the main game and concentrating on trivial aspects such as BD-Live!
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post #7 of 47 Old 01-04-2009, 09:29 PM
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Go to the link below my signature. It is far from definitive but with everyone's help, it will grow
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post #8 of 47 Old 01-05-2009, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSHA222 View Post

Go to the link below my signature. It is far from definitive but with everyone's help, it will grow

Top man, i hope the list grows

SUBTITLES IN PICTURE

Death Race BD
Fearless HD-DVD
The Incredible Hulk (2008) BD
Iron Man BD
Kill Bill Vol 1 BD
Kill Bill Vol 2 BD
Mummy 3: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor BD
Rambo (2008) BD
Star Wars: A New Hope DVD
Star Wars: Return of the Jedi DVD
Star Wars: The Phantom Menace DVD
Transformers BD
U-571 BD

SUBTITLES NOT IN PICTURE

30 Days Of Night BD
CJ7 BD
Curse of the Golden Flower BD
Day Watch BD
Hancock BD - The subs are absolutely not important. It is a very short scene at the beginning.
The Hidden Fortress Criterion Collection DVD
House of Flying Daggers BD
Kung Fu Hustle BD
La Femme Nikita BD
Letters from Iwo Jima BD
Flash Point (HK import) BD
OSS 117: Cairo, Nest of Spies (French import) BD
The Professionals BD
Youth Without Youth BD
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post #9 of 47 Old 01-07-2009, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSHA222 View Post

Go to the link below my signature. It is far from definitive but with everyone's help, it will grow

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1102888
Just a reminder, please help us list the movies with subs in/out of the picture.
Thanks
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post #10 of 47 Old 01-07-2009, 05:46 PM
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Anybody else prefer white subtitles as opposed to yellow?
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post #11 of 47 Old 01-07-2009, 06:22 PM
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Pretty much any foreign film from Sony Pictures Home Entertainment puts the subtitles in the bottom letterbox bar of the 2.40:1 frame (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Kung Fu Hustle, 2046). I use mattes to cover the black bars and the practice of putting subtitles below the picture area pisses me off.
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post #12 of 47 Old 01-07-2009, 06:49 PM
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I still have 2 Samsung upconverting SD players that have the 'EZ View' feature as part of my scope setup for watching foreign language films. There are several foreign BD's that I've held back on purchasing because of the subtitle issue: 'Black Box', 'La Femme Nikita' (not interested in the english dubbed audio track), and 'Shinobi', to name a few. Thank God that 'The Orphanage' is the rare BD title that does have the entire subs within the image area.

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post #13 of 47 Old 01-07-2009, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Anybody else prefer white subtitles as opposed to yellow?

Yes. I'm watching The Last Exile on DVD at the moment, and the yellow subs are like a moth to a flame.
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post #14 of 47 Old 01-08-2009, 12:00 AM
 
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Subtitles in the black borders are awesome.

Otherwise useless frames now having a use? Yes please!
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post #15 of 47 Old 01-08-2009, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xizer View Post

Subtitles in the black borders are awesome.

Otherwise useless frames now having a use? Yes please!

Wish to find out whether you are watching long foreign movies with subtitles.

When watching blackbar subtitles for a moderate length of time, it becomes tiring and difficult to concentrate on the movie and start reading subtitles rather than watching the movie. When the subs are within the frame it is seamless and could read subtitles without moving eyes outside the picture frame and subtitles become an integral part of the movie/picture. If subtitles are read only for short durations it is hard to understand this problem.

Blackbar-subtitles is a nightmare of the blackbar haters because subtitles appears on the black void which shouldn't be there as it is not part of the movie. Unfortunately Sony and WB do not understand this.
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post #16 of 47 Old 01-08-2009, 11:07 AM
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IIRC, wasn't BD originally advertised as supporting movable subtitles?
A Java feature?

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post #17 of 47 Old 01-08-2009, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncguy View Post

However, so-called protected video path of blu-ray does not allow the manufactures to interfere with the video path and reposition raster-image based subtitles (unless BDA/Sony develops certified code to achieve this).

The simple solution to this is two subtitle tracks, one positioned in-frame and one in-letterbox-area, selectable from the menu. This really should be standard on all BDs.

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post #18 of 47 Old 01-08-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

The simple solution to this is two subtitle tracks, one positioned in-frame and one in-letterbox-area, selectable from the menu. This really should be standard on all BDs.

At least, all BDs with aspect ratios wider than 16:9.

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post #19 of 47 Old 01-08-2009, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

IIRC, wasn't BD originally advertised as supporting movable subtitles?
A Java feature?

That's what I thought, too.

Resizable, positionable, color-selectable, font-selectable subtitles: A film-watcher's dream come true.

Maybe in the next video format.

Scott

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post #20 of 47 Old 01-09-2009, 03:35 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syncguy View Post

Wish to find out whether you are watching long foreign movies with subtitles.

When watching blackbar subtitles for a moderate length of time, it becomes tiring and difficult to concentrate on the movie and start reading subtitles rather than watching the movie. When the subs are within the frame it is seamless and could read subtitles without moving eyes outside the picture frame and subtitles become an integral part of the movie/picture. If subtitles are read only for short durations it is hard to understand this problem.

Blackbar-subtitles is a nightmare of the blackbar haters because subtitles appears on the black void which shouldn't be there as it is not part of the movie. Unfortunately Sony and WB do not understand this.

Wow how do you ever watch 1.78 AR movies that fill up the whole screen if you can't focus on black bar area and the picture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by srw1000 View Post

That's what I thought, too.

Resizable, positionable, color-selectable, font-selectable subtitles: A film-watcher's dream come true.

Maybe in the next video format.

Scott

We already have it... it's called .mkv...
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post #21 of 47 Old 01-09-2009, 04:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

IIRC, wasn't BD originally advertised as supporting movable subtitles?
A Java feature?

syncguy's post covered this. Bitmap subtitles can't be repositioned (because they're part of the protected video path) and ASCII subtitles (which can be repositioned, resized and otherwise tinkered with) aren't used because some players don't support them properly. The format supports them on paper, but not consistently enough for distributors to actually implement them.
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post #22 of 47 Old 01-09-2009, 05:10 AM
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The argument is useless. Nothing can be done to prevent the studios from being stupid. People going 2.35:1 with their screens are pretty much guaranteeing themselves a massive headache.

Yes, it sucks, but it is what it is and it won't change unless someone like Spielberg goes all postal about it and what are the odds of that happening? Hmmm.... ZERO

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post #23 of 47 Old 01-09-2009, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens View Post

Yes, it sucks, but it is what it si and it won't change unless someone like Spielberg goes all postal about it and what are the ods of that happening? Hmmm.... ZERO

Any Michael Bay movies with some subtitled dialogue? He goes postal at the drop of a hat.

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post #24 of 47 Old 01-09-2009, 11:10 PM
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So it's a copyright issue why they dont let us reposistion the subs?

It depends on the movie, i feel different ways about where I like my subs. I'm more of a fan of keeping it in the black bar area since I'm watching movies on a projector, and I like the image to be untouched and the black bars to have some use. But I can understand how it can be tiring sometimes to always read it so far below.
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post #25 of 47 Old 01-12-2009, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

Anybody else prefer white subtitles as opposed to yellow?

What is it with yellow subs?
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post #26 of 47 Old 01-12-2009, 07:04 PM
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Yellow subs are fugly.
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post #27 of 47 Old 01-12-2009, 07:26 PM
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I think yellow subs help in black and white films, in which white subs may blend into the background.
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post #28 of 47 Old 01-13-2009, 05:52 AM
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Sony and Warner Please change your policy about subs,it should be on the picture frame especially in 2.35:1 such title as TDK.
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post #29 of 47 Old 01-13-2009, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butsu View Post

Sony and Warner Please change your policy about subs,it should be on the picture frame especially in 2.35:1 such title as TDK.

Or, better yet, give both options. I think an ideal solution might be to offer 'in-letterbox' subs as the default stream when subtitles are selected from the language menu, but also provide a stream of 'in-picture' subs selectable from an 'advanced set-up' menu. This way, the techie nerds with CIH set-ups can easily find their option, but the less-informed general consumer doesn't have to be confused by being confronted with two options for subtitles in the language of their choice.

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post #30 of 47 Old 01-13-2009, 10:44 AM
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Then you have Man on Fire where the translation subs are all over the place. Good use of them, btw.

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