#422 The Last Emperor Criterion Collection comparison *PIX* - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 187 Old 01-23-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDeath View Post

Criterion is indeed massively cropped on both sides:

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/FILM/dvdcom...astemperor.htm

I actually had doubts about this. Some scenes do look better composed in 2:1, sometimes it seems there is unwanted info in the 2.35:1 frame. I also noticed that the Criterion TV version has a different crop in some scenes....

I'll just trust the DP.

Thanks for the link. It was helpful to see the comparisons between the original Artisan DVD release which I have and the BD release. The original Artisan DVD release is pretty bad even by DVD standards; it looks like they used a VHS recording to make that DVD.

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post #92 of 187 Old 01-23-2009, 05:27 PM
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I think the intent was 2.35:1. The idea of cropping to 2.0:1 came later.
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post #93 of 187 Old 01-23-2009, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I think the intent was 2.35:1. The idea of cropping to 2.0:1 came later.

Correct.

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post #94 of 187 Old 01-23-2009, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I think the intent was 2.35:1.

2.39:1, to be precise.

I don't feel special...
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post #95 of 187 Old 01-23-2009, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

2.39:1, to be precise.

The R2 DVD is 2:35, according to DVDBeaver.

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post #96 of 187 Old 01-23-2009, 10:33 PM
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2.35:1, 2.39:1, 2.40:1, etc. It's variable.

This release is still panned and scanned.
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post #97 of 187 Old 01-24-2009, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

2.35:1, 2.39:1, 2.40:1, etc. It's variable.

This release is still panned and scanned.

True, that.

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post #98 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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In the process of getting a 2.35.1 version.
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post #99 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 06:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

2.35:1, 2.39:1, 2.40:1, etc. It's variable.

This release is still panned and scanned.

As spectator said it's really 2.39:1 that is the aspect ratio for most scope shot films but why split hairs over such a small difference

Good link this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic
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post #100 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by FoxyMulder View Post

As spectator said it's really 2.39:1 that is the aspect ratio for most scope shot films but why split hairs over such a small difference

Good link this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamorphic

That is correct. Nice link But there's also cropping and resizing while authoring for DVDs and Blu-Rays to take into account, so Oink is indeed correct stating the French R2 DVD is 2.35:1 (or 2.34:1 to be precise).
This is getting a bit OT. I think I'll skip this Criterion release and wait for the french one.

Le Dernier Empereur [Blu-ray]
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post #101 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post

Le Dernier Empereur [Blu-ray]

Thanx for the link.
I wasn't aware of this release (if I had been I wouldn't have purchased the Criterion).

According to the link, it has a Febuary 17 release date.
It also indicates it is an R2 disk.

Are you aware of what the aspect ratio and the audio spec is?

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post #102 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturn94 View Post

Thanks for the link. It was helpful to see the comparisons between the original Artisan DVD release which I have and the BD release. The original Artisan DVD release is pretty bad even by DVD standards; it looks like they used a VHS recording to make that DVD.

Since the BD version seems to be much improved in terms of picture quality over the original Artisan DVD release, I went ahead and ordered the BD version with what I had left on a Best Buy giftcard. I guess I'll find out soon whether or not the reframing bothers me.

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post #103 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighDeath View Post

I understand you guys want more info in the frame. I just rather give more credit to the DP's claimed original intent. It is not a matter of right or wrong, it is a matter of taste and official taste (DP's)... Just MHO anyway, no big deal.

But check the 2.35:1 grabs at DVDBeaver, there are two that may justify the cinematographer's choice (or at least help clarify a bit),

It's not a matter of "wanting more info" or arguing over which framing is better or worse. Even if the reframing indisputably improved the movie, I'd still oppose it because it's a matter of historical integrity. Indulgence of artistic temperament and fickleness and wont to change your mind ends after a work of art is released to the public. If an artist changes his mind afterward, he's free to create a new version but to try to obliterate the original or contemptuously denigrate it as some bastard child that never reflected the artist's "true" vision? If Storaro is so unhappy with The Last Emperor that has been circulating for the last 20 years or so and was the basis for his Academy Award for cinematography, perhaps he should renounce his Oscar and return it promptly to the Academy. Doesn't matter if your name is Storaro, Bertolucci or Lucas. It IS wrong.
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post #104 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 06:04 PM
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I'm not horrified by how The Last Emperor came out. It looks good with a cut & trim. It looked good before but maybe a little less intimate. The thing that scares me is that resizing films a la Emperor could become a fad. I don't wanna be in one disc-cussion after another like this one. I just don't wanna see half the very wide films in the known universe altered, rethought, or whatever you want to call it.

I hope this was a rare event.

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post #105 of 187 Old 01-25-2009, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterlee View Post

If Storaro is so unhappy with The Last Emperor that has been circulating for the last 20 years or so and was the basis for his Academy Award for cinematography, perhaps he should renounce his Oscar and return it promptly to the Academy.

Good point.
His Oscar was the result of his camera work in the OAR!!!!!
NOT 2:1!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael Bellomy View Post

The thing that scares me is that resizing films a la Emperor could become a fad. I don't wanna be in one disc-cussion after another like this one. I just don't wanna see half the very wide films in the known universe altered, rethought, or whatever you want to call it.

The perfect way to get rid of those HORRIBLE, AWFUL Black Bars.
Wouldn't that be a great solution for all those complaining about the "picture not fitting their TV?"

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post #106 of 187 Old 01-26-2009, 04:09 PM
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All this talk about the ratio and picture transfer. Isn't anyone bothered by the sound transfer? All I'm getting is mono from the DTS-HD tracks. Wasn't this blown up to 70mm. Shouldn't there be a 6 track mix somewhere?
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post #107 of 187 Old 01-26-2009, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael Bellomy View Post

I'm not horrified by how The Last Emperor came out. It looks good with a cut & trim. It looked good before but maybe a little less intimate. The thing that scares me is that resizing films a la Emperor could become a fad. I don't wanna be in one disc-cussion after another like this one. I just don't wanna see half the very wide films in the known universe altered, rethought, or whatever you want to call it.

Is anyone else besides VT on this 2:00:1 aspect ratio revisionist kick? The shrinking of 2:35:1 OAR to 1:78/85:1 OAR to fit I can understand even if I don't agree with it because it's just ignorant suits trying to to shut dumb people complaining about 'black bars' on their 16x9 HDTV's. But an artist like Storaro actively going out of his way to butcher his own work? Madness!
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post #108 of 187 Old 01-26-2009, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moovtune View Post

All this talk about the ratio and picture transfer. Isn't anyone bothered by the sound transfer? All I'm getting is mono from the DTS-HD tracks. Wasn't this blown up to 70mm. Shouldn't there be a 6 track mix somewhere?

Yes, there was a 6 track mix.
But like the refusal to release TLE in its OAR, Criterion decided NOT to present TLE in the ultimate BD audio glory an Oscar winner deserves....

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post #109 of 187 Old 01-26-2009, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moovtune View Post

All this talk about the ratio and picture transfer. Isn't anyone bothered by the sound transfer? All I'm getting is mono from the DTS-HD tracks. Wasn't this blown up to 70mm. Shouldn't there be a 6 track mix somewhere?

I mentioned the sound as one of my issues, with the AR being my most important.

The LD has Dolby 2.0 PCM sound and IMHO it is better than the Criterion Blu-ray.

Also, I saw it 3 times in 70mm with 6 track magnetic (probably really 4 given the way it was done) at the Northpoint in SFO and really liked the sound there.
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post #110 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post

Is anyone else besides VT on this 2:00:1 aspect ratio revisionist kick?

No, it's just Storaro. He came up with the kooky "Univisium" theory all on his own.

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post #111 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

No, it's just Storaro. He came up with the kooky "Univisium" theory all on his own.

I've seen clips of Apocalypse Now in its original 2.39:1 scope glory and it looks IMHO much better than the crop and scan monstrosity that this DP has come up with for his older movies.

The Ride of the Valkyries sequence with the helicopters destroying the village is soooo much more epic in 2.39:1.

On ALL V.S. shot movies they should give you two transfers... one in its original glory and one with Storaro's goofy crop and scan version.


Storaro is a nut.

With E.T. and its godawful PC-ified/CGI'd 20th Anniversary Edition... if that revisionist garbage is the ONLY version put on Blu-ray I will keep my DVD of the original 1983 cut, thank you very much.

The ONLY thing I liked about the 20th Anniversary Edition was the replacement of the rod puppets during the bike flying sequences with rotoscoped live stand-ins on real bikes shot on a giant green-screen motion control rig. That was an improvement of real significance. Everything else was a travesty, even the CGI'ing of E.T. The animatronic puppet, though crude by today's puppet wizardry, by Carlo Rambaldi was brilliant and sooo cute.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #112 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post

Apocalypse Now in its original 2.39:1 scope glory

Apocalypse Now should be 2.35:1. The 'Scope ratio was changed from 2.35:1 to 2.39:1 in 1982. Apocalypse Now was released in 1979.

I know it's a minor distinction, but with the technical nature of this discussion, I think it's valuable to be precise.

I don't feel special...
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post #113 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spectator View Post

Apocalypse Now should be 2.35:1. The 'Scope ratio was changed from 2.35:1 to 2.39:1 in 1982. Apocalypse Now was released in 1979.

I know it's a minor distinction, but with the technical nature of this discussion, I think it's valuable to be precise.

True, true... though if you transfered it at 2.35:1 you may run into viewable frame splice anomalies, which is why they switched to 2.39:1. It just crops a tiny bit of the top and bottom to hide such errors.

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post #114 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 12:13 PM
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I thought I remembered reading that 2.35:1 was a shooting ratio and 2.39:1 was for projection.
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post #115 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I thought I remembered reading that 2.35:1 was a shooting ratio and 2.39:1 was for projection.

I believe that's so. 2.39:1 hides possible splice lines during projection.

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
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post #116 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul View Post

I thought I remembered reading that 2.35:1 was a shooting ratio and 2.39:1 was for projection.

Before 1982, 'Scope productions were shot with a 2.35:1-ratio matte box on the camera. Some theatres would project them with a slightly reduced image height to cover visible splice artifacts. In 1982, the ratio was more officially changed and the industry re-standardized around a 2.39:1-ratio matte box on the cameras and projection at the same ratio.

I don't feel special...
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post #117 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 12:57 PM
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[quote=Dan Hitchman;15666085]...With E.T. and its godawful PC-ified/CGI'd 20th Anniversary Edition... if that revisionist garbage is the ONLY version put on Blu-ray I will keep my DVD of the original 1983 cut, thank you very much...
QUOTE]

+1!

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post #118 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

....it's just Storaro. He came up with the kooky "Univisium" theory all on his own.

Well now, that just makes me wanna start the Anti Univis-ulous League. I nominate myself la Presidente. Anybody wanna second that motion....?

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post #119 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

No, it's just Storaro. He came up with the kooky "Univisium" theory all on his own.

What is "Univisium" ?
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post #120 of 187 Old 01-27-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

What is "Univisium" ?

I'm not sure either but it sounds cool, kind'a like Baba Ga-noo-oo-sh. I have two competing theories:

1. It's a cinematic, cult religion.

2. It's a new radio active isotope.

No, I now have three competing theories....

3. None of the above....

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