#422 The Last Emperor Criterion Collection comparison *PIX* - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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The overall PQ of this release is very good. This has its film grain intact. Its the same transfer used from the Criterion DVD version. Which means the obvious EE visible on the DVD is now more prominent on the Blu-ray. The EE is not applied throughout the transfer but when it occurs its very distracting (to me at least). Some AVS'ers may complain about scenes that looks very soft compared to the rest of the movie. Not much you can do about that. This movie has lots of shots where its obviously out of focus. Artistic intent or not. I don't know.

Besides those issues, I can recommend this Blu-ray as a worthy upgrade over the CC DVD.

Now about that crappy packaging . . . . . . .

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post #2 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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One more thing I don't agree with Vittorio Storano's use of 2.00:1 aspect ratio for the Criterion release of this movie. Call me a radical or an extremist but 2.35:1 AR is for this movie.

I can't wait for the next CC re-release with 2.35:1 ratio AR
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post #3 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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post #5 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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post #6 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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post #7 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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DVD Criterion Collection


Blu-ray File size: 32.00 GB

Bitrate: 23.01 mbps




Code:
                                                                                                                Total   Video                                             
Title                                                           Codec   Length  Movie Size      Disc Size       Bitrate Bitrate Main Audio Track                          Secondary Audio Track
-----                                                           ------  ------- --------------  --------------  ------- ------- ------------------                        ---------------------
00000.MPLS                                                      AVC     2:43:05 32,534,206,464  49,322,486,710  26.60   23.01   DTS-HD Master 2.0 1908Kbps (48kHz/24-bit) 


DISC INFO:

Disc Title:     LAST_EMPEROR
Disc Size:      49,322,486,710 bytes
Protection:     AACS
BD-Java:        Yes
BDInfo:         0.5.1

PLAYLIST REPORT:

Name:                   00000.MPLS
Size:                   32,534,206,464 bytes
Length:                 2:43:05 (h:m:s)
Total Bitrate:          26.60 Mbps
Description:            

VIDEO:

Codec                   Bitrate             Description     
-----                   -------             -----------     
MPEG-4 AVC Video        23008 kbps          1080p / 23.976 fps / 16:9 / High Profile 4.1

AUDIO:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
DTS-HD Master Audio             English         1908 kbps       2.0 / 48 kHz / 1908 kbps / 24-bit (DTS Core: 2.0 / 48 kHz / 1509 kbps / 24-bit)
Dolby Digital Audio             English         224 kbps        2.0 / 48 kHz / 224 kbps / Dolby Surround

SUBTITLES:

Codec                           Language        Bitrate         Description     
-----                           --------        -------         -----------     
Presentation Graphics           English         36.668 kbps                     

FILES:

Name            Time In         Length          Size            Total Bitrate   
----            -------         ------          ----            -------------   
00000.M2TS      0:00:00.000     1:55:06.858     22,904,401,920  26,529          
00001.M2TS      1:55:06.858     0:47:58.917     9,629,804,544   26,760          

CHAPTERS:

Number          Time In         Length          Avg Video Rate  Max 1-Sec Rate  Max 1-Sec Time  Max 5-Sec Rate  Max 5-Sec Time  Max 10Sec Rate  Max 10Sec Time  Avg Frame Size  Max Frame Size  Max Frame Time  
------          -------         ------          --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  --------------  
1               0:00:00.000     0:06:48.116     14,696 kbps     28,254 kbps     00:04:00.114    27,531 kbps     00:04:00.114    24,696 kbps     00:03:56.903    76,611 bytes    233,629 bytes   00:00:08.007    
2               0:06:48.116     0:08:04.442     21,992 kbps     38,314 kbps     00:11:01.035    32,301 kbps     00:11:00.951    30,317 kbps     00:10:33.007    114,659 bytes   289,988 bytes   00:10:42.933    
3               0:14:52.558     0:03:42.513     23,790 kbps     36,673 kbps     00:16:26.402    32,951 kbps     00:16:34.868    29,218 kbps     00:15:38.020    124,031 bytes   350,876 bytes   00:15:04.862    
4               0:18:35.072     0:02:43.454     21,506 kbps     31,224 kbps     00:20:38.028    26,459 kbps     00:19:31.378    26,282 kbps     00:19:31.003    112,125 bytes   214,109 bytes   00:21:14.940    
5               0:21:18.527     0:02:07.001     18,991 kbps     25,130 kbps     00:23:23.860    23,845 kbps     00:22:27.721    22,409 kbps     00:22:26.094    99,012 bytes    234,604 bytes   00:22:29.890    
6               0:23:25.529     0:09:08.047     26,763 kbps     39,676 kbps     00:26:48.815    36,860 kbps     00:26:44.811    36,376 kbps     00:26:39.806    139,533 bytes   293,510 bytes   00:26:11.903    
7               0:32:33.576     0:04:39.320     24,718 kbps     38,130 kbps     00:33:17.578    36,290 kbps     00:33:17.328    35,077 kbps     00:33:12.448    128,869 bytes   288,377 bytes   00:33:11.114    
8               0:37:12.897     0:04:34.607     24,569 kbps     35,273 kbps     00:41:12.845    34,326 kbps     00:41:12.720    33,048 kbps     00:41:10.009    128,092 bytes   274,815 bytes   00:40:00.815    
9               0:41:47.505     0:03:53.233     22,173 kbps     37,192 kbps     00:42:01.519    35,192 kbps     00:42:30.547    34,938 kbps     00:42:30.130    115,599 bytes   237,668 bytes   00:41:59.850    
10              0:45:40.738     0:04:11.084     25,239 kbps     36,797 kbps     00:47:57.457    36,360 kbps     00:47:51.451    36,178 kbps     00:47:49.283    131,585 bytes   313,311 bytes   00:47:54.913    
11              0:49:51.822     0:07:20.273     27,030 kbps     40,247 kbps     00:51:08.940    36,405 kbps     00:50:56.136    36,221 kbps     00:51:41.932    140,923 bytes   283,457 bytes   00:55:54.017    
12              0:57:12.095     0:03:19.032     20,826 kbps     28,783 kbps     00:58:18.703    27,520 kbps     00:58:18.703    25,946 kbps     00:58:16.659    108,579 bytes   213,854 bytes   00:57:41.666    
13              1:00:31.127     0:04:29.769     24,318 kbps     33,416 kbps     01:01:10.917    32,200 kbps     01:02:49.015    31,797 kbps     01:02:47.138    126,784 bytes   306,956 bytes   01:01:10.958    
14              1:05:00.897     0:05:30.413     21,300 kbps     30,838 kbps     01:09:33.043    27,472 kbps     01:09:29.623    27,057 kbps     01:09:40.676    111,050 bytes   265,662 bytes   01:06:50.631    
15              1:10:31.310     0:03:01.556     23,515 kbps     35,429 kbps     01:10:31.727    31,103 kbps     01:10:31.310    27,560 kbps     01:10:31.310    122,596 bytes   216,176 bytes   01:12:43.609    
16              1:13:32.866     0:08:23.044     21,880 kbps     37,226 kbps     01:19:10.036    36,199 kbps     01:20:43.713    32,646 kbps     01:19:04.364    114,074 bytes   288,250 bytes   01:20:34.788    
17              1:21:55.911     0:06:15.708     23,098 kbps     36,906 kbps     01:22:57.389    34,055 kbps     01:22:56.721    33,654 kbps     01:22:56.721    120,425 bytes   470,538 bytes   01:22:56.763    
18              1:28:11.619     0:06:48.157     22,818 kbps     35,641 kbps     01:29:19.020    33,438 kbps     01:28:40.023    33,095 kbps     01:28:40.106    118,962 bytes   220,232 bytes   01:31:56.344    
19              1:34:59.777     0:08:01.230     19,591 kbps     30,600 kbps     01:37:25.923    27,847 kbps     01:37:25.881    27,163 kbps     01:37:25.881    102,139 bytes   209,287 bytes   01:37:26.924    
20              1:43:01.008     0:04:10.124     24,371 kbps     35,396 kbps     01:46:29.424    34,721 kbps     01:46:25.545    32,281 kbps     01:44:21.421    127,058 bytes   240,661 bytes   01:46:27.714    
21              1:47:11.133     0:06:02.487     27,027 kbps     37,793 kbps     01:52:30.452    36,292 kbps     01:51:49.786    36,247 kbps     01:51:49.661    140,909 bytes   302,931 bytes   01:51:26.513    
22              1:53:13.620     0:09:06.504     21,921 kbps     33,472 kbps     01:54:15.807    31,737 kbps     01:54:12.178    30,830 kbps     01:54:07.257    114,286 bytes   217,829 bytes   01:54:07.590    
23              2:02:20.124     0:02:48.501     23,479 kbps     32,513 kbps     02:04:51.650    31,547 kbps     02:04:51.692    29,741 kbps     02:04:51.650    122,410 bytes   197,620 bytes   02:05:08.000    
24              2:05:08.626     0:07:54.432     23,264 kbps     35,287 kbps     02:05:30.981    34,020 kbps     02:05:30.356    33,150 kbps     02:05:28.187    121,287 bytes   263,590 bytes   02:05:36.946    
25              2:13:03.058     0:05:04.762     23,549 kbps     34,524 kbps     02:16:44.696    33,465 kbps     02:16:50.911    32,822 kbps     02:16:45.196    122,771 bytes   245,002 bytes   02:13:15.654    
26              2:18:07.821     0:07:17.562     23,254 kbps     37,558 kbps     02:22:56.109    35,952 kbps     02:22:52.313    35,655 kbps     02:22:47.517    121,235 bytes   232,495 bytes   02:22:56.859    
27              2:25:25.383     0:03:25.413     25,883 kbps     37,561 kbps     02:26:55.223    36,058 kbps     02:26:51.219    35,667 kbps     02:26:47.465    134,940 bytes   273,577 bytes   02:26:35.620    
28              2:28:50.796     0:05:51.267     26,262 kbps     37,070 kbps     02:31:37.046    35,995 kbps     02:31:36.545    35,006 kbps     02:31:33.793    136,919 bytes   299,142 bytes   02:32:36.438    
29              2:34:42.064     0:08:23.711     20,561 kbps     40,837 kbps     02:37:32.276    36,972 kbps     02:37:28.272    36,413 kbps     02:37:23.267    107,205 bytes   385,585 bytes   02:37:32.609    

STREAM DIAGNOSTICS:

File            PID             Type            Codec           Language                Seconds                 Bitrate                 Bytes           Packets         
----            ---             ----            -----           --------                --------------          --------------          -------------   -----           
00000.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x1B            AVC                                     6906.733                23,000                  19,856,583,206  108,012,553     
00000.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x86            DTS-HD MA       eng (English)           6906.733                1,844                   1,592,049,576   9,782,135       
00000.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           6906.733                224                     193,392,640     1,079,200       
00000.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           6906.733                39                      33,359,324      188,466         
00001.M2TS      4113 (0x1011)   0x1B            AVC                                     2878.834                23,031                  8,287,904,443   45,083,714      
00001.M2TS      4352 (0x1100)   0x86            DTS-HD MA       eng (English)           2878.834                2,061                   741,544,348     4,460,462       
00001.M2TS      4353 (0x1101)   0x81            AC3             eng (English)           2878.834                224                     80,610,432      449,835         
00001.M2TS      4608 (0x1200)   0x90            PGS             eng (English)           2878.834                32                      11,493,374      64,775
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post #8 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 02:47 PM - Thread Starter
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post #9 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 03:02 PM
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If you have one of the laserdiscs, it might be interesting to see the difference in the aspect ratio.

I have been comparing my Japanese LD (aspect ratio 2.35) to the Blu-ray (2.00). In many scenes, useful information has been cropped off of the sides on the Blu-ray.
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post #10 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 03:08 PM
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Xylon,

Your new avatar is a killer.

And thanx for the comparo.

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post #11 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 03:25 PM
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Full house tonight for this title. Curiosity and suspense is killin' me.

 

 

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post #12 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Full house tonight for this title. Curiosity and suspense is killin' me.

Did ya make it thru it?

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post #13 of 187 Old 01-10-2009, 10:51 PM
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The picture is good for age of this great film in 2.40:1 aspect ratio which filled rny entire cinemascope screen.The sound is DTS-HD MA but just 2.0 that become Dolby Prologic2x.Anyway I think worth buying it.
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post #14 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butsu View Post

The picture is good for age of this great film in 2.40:1 aspect ratio which filled rny entire cinemascope screen.The sound is DTS-HD MA but just 2.0 that become Dolby Prologic2x.Anyway I think worth buying it.

I thought this title was cropped from 2.40 to 2.00 at the insistence of the DP?
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post #15 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deviation View Post

I thought this title was cropped from 2.40 to 2.00 at the insistence of the DP?

That is correct.

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post #16 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

If you have one of the laserdiscs, it might be interesting to see the difference in the aspect ratio.

I have been comparing my Japanese LD (aspect ratio 2.35) to the Blu-ray (2.00). In many scenes, useful information has been cropped off of the sides on the Blu-ray.

The French DVD from Gaumont/Columbia is also 2.35:1.
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post #17 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

That is correct.

ah yes...

ye 'ol "artist's intent" issue rears its head again.

so where are all those "The artist's wishes must always be respected!" zealots?

.... ....

is it finally OK to conclude that not every creator is right in their head when making certain decisions about their own work? That is why we have editors...
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post #18 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 05:25 AM
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I said DTS-HD MA 2.O channels and then decode to PROLOGIC 2X,not about aspect ratio which is 2.40:1,sorry to make you guy misinterpreted
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post #19 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

so where are all those "The artist's wishes must always be respected!" zealots?

.... ....

is it finally OK to conclude that not every creator is right in their head when making certain decisions about their own work? That is why we have editors...

This has never been a case of artist's intent. This is a case of revisionist history from a DP trying to push his own personal format. Criterion disappoints me by going along with it.
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post #20 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zinfamous View Post

.... ....

is it finally OK to conclude that not every creator is right in their head when making certain decisions about their own work? That is why we have editors...

If you're talking about movie editors, they don't work in a vacuum. They work hand-in-hand with the director. It's probably the single closest working relationship on a movie.

Vincent
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post #21 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 09:57 AM
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ok i'm getting glare on my monitor but i could swear i saw ringing in those shots... please tell me i'm either seeing things or it can be explained as something other than EE
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post #22 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 10:00 AM
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There is some minor EE and ringing, but I also see some blurriness in a couple of shots - what causes this?

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post #23 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 10:10 AM
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I received and watched this title yesterday. It has very nice close ups, but medium and long shots range all over the place in terms of sharpness.
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post #24 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 11:29 AM
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This also demonstrates that Criterion's policy of recycling their DVD materials is flawed.

If we assume for the sake of the argument that one needs to crop to 2.0 for DVD in order to avoid losing detail, it is pretty clear that with 6 times the resolution available, you will not have to crop on Blu-ray.

____

When I see a film properly exhibited in a theater, I want to see the same thing in my home, in general. OAR is OAR is OAR not something else. The DP should not have the right to do this.
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post #25 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 01:52 PM
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My post from other thread:

After skipping around the disk I can say with certainly: this is NOT a BD to show off your system with.
Very inconsistent video throughout.
Often very soft, while being a grain lover's delight.
Image usually appears washed out, although this could be the way it is filmed.
The impression is that very little artificial lighting was used during filming.

If this is as good as the film can look, it is an absolute travesty.

BTW, the 2.0 DTS-MA is pathetic.
The music is tinty and sounds like it is coming out an old portable AM radio put on the floor (with a microphone a couple of feet away).
Using DSP matrixing helps, but it is hard to believe a film of this age can sound so poor.
Where the hell is the 6 channel 70mm track????

Probably the re-framing to 2:1 from 2:35 didn't help the image....I don't know for sure.
But I do know this Criterion BD doesn't add to the appreciation of this Oscar winner...

This is one of the most engrossing films I have ever seen.
It's shame this Criterion release doesn't match the greatness of this movie.

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post #26 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

I also see some blurriness in a couple of shots - what causes this?

Actually, there is a lot of "blurriness" in this release.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rlsmith View Post

This also demonstrates that Criterion's policy of recycling their DVD materials is flawed.

If we assume for the sake of the argument that one needs to crop to 2.0 for DVD in order to avoid losing detail, it is pretty clear that with 6 times the resolution available, you will not have to crop on Blu-ray.

____

When I see a film properly exhibited in a theater, I want to see the same thing in my home, in general. OAR is OAR is OAR not something else. The DP should not have the right to do this.

I don't understand HOW Storaro is able to impose his 2.0 philosophy on videos of the films he originally shot at 2.35.
Anyone knows?

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post #27 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 05:13 PM
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I found the picture and audio both to be inconsistent in this release. There was some bad over-dubbing which wasn't synced properly as well, especially the interrogation scenes.

Also I'm apalled that they continue to allow Stararo to do his damage. He's lost all his credibility.
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post #28 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 06:34 PM
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If we assume for the sake of the argument that one needs to crop to 2.0 for DVD in order to avoid losing detail, it is pretty clear that with 6 times the resolution available, you will not have to crop on Blu-ray.

Storaro has said, point-blank, that 2.35:1 "could never work in television", HD or otherwise (he was speaking of Apocalypse Now, but extrapolating this to TLE is no great leap); he also says that part of the rationale behind 2:1 is that it's a middle ground between 2.21:1 70mm (Storaro seems to regard the 70mm versions of AN and TLE as the originals, even though both were 35mm) and 16:9 HD. Resolution doesn't seem to be the decisive factor, although I've definitely seen him mention it elsewhere. To be honest, I get the impression he thinks there's something "mystical" about 2:1. He's pretty far gone.
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post #29 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 06:44 PM
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I guess I should have had Mr. Storaro sitting next to me at the Northpoint in SF when I saw the film in 70mm. He could have pointed out all of the artistic reasons why 2.0 was the correct aspect ratio rather than the 2.2 I was looking at.

Unhappily for me, I was "imprinted" with the artistically wrong version of the film, and that is what I now crave to see.

Seriously, as Gordon Willis has said as quoted by Robert Harris, the movie was already "done" and put on the screen. We should see what it was, not someone's revision of it. It doesn't matter whether the reviser is named Storaro or Lucas, he shouldn't be doing it at all.

I have no objection to making a new version of something as long as it does not supplant the original.
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post #30 of 187 Old 01-11-2009, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I found the picture and audio both to be inconsistent in this release. There was some bad over-dubbing which wasn't synced properly as well, especially the interrogation scenes.

While it may be true with their DVDs, I would say that Criterion's reputation for "the best presentation possible" doesn't apply to their BD releases (if TLE is used as an example).

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