Indiana Jones Trilogy Blu Ray discussion/speculation thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 326 Old 01-31-2009, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

The best he could come up with in Return of the Jedi was to have the bad guys rebuild the Death Star.

Think about it for a moment...wouldn't that be EXACTLY what an evil military empire would do?

So, OK, the first one was blown up...
But that doesn't mean the weapon itself couldn't be useful.
Just means better security is needed during the construction process.

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post #92 of 326 Old 01-31-2009, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Think about it for a moment...wouldn't that be EXACTLY what an evil military empire would do?

So, OK, the first one was blown up...
But that doesn't mean the weapon itself couldn't be useful.
Just means better security is needed during the construction process.

George Lucas says himself says on the commentary, that the orginal story he wrote had been running thin or something like that. So he had to fill in the gaps with this one.

I guess if he knew from the beginning that he was going to make 3 movies, He wouldnt have blown up the death star in the first movie.

A single star destroyer would have worked.

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post #93 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 12:33 AM
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I saw Raiders when I was six and loved it. Temple of Doom was creepy but exciting and funny and I loved it at the time, just like Last Crusade a few years later. Adding Connery to the mix was a lot of fun. However, I have grown fonder of TOD over the years, more than TLC. The humor just got far too broad in the third film and while the tone was light and fun, the actors (and therefore the audience) just aren't taking things seriously enough to create a captivating mood. It feels like a comic "romp" in a way that the first two don't. Over the last year or two, Last Crusade is the one I have revisited the least. They were obviously reacting to the darkness of the second film, but in my opinion they over corrected and went to far in the opposite direction.

I really did enjoy Crystal Skull and have continued to enjoy it upon repeated viewings, but my primary complaint about the plot is that most of the film involves Indy retracing Oxley's steps. He just keeps going places and doing things that Oxley had done recently and so the story lacks the sense of Indy being a trailblazing archaeologist and he is instead just trying to catch up with someone else's previous discoveries. That being said, I think that Crystal Skull has the most balanced tone of the sequels. Not too silly like TLC and not too dark like TOD. (But none can compare to the original.)

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post #94 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 07:19 AM
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The problem with TOD is that it bogs down in the middle. For the better part of an hour it is confined to the underground temple activities with human sacrifices. I find this very grim and depressing, and also very slow moving and a bit boring. Finally, the story picks up again with the rail car chase, etc. Also, the opening part in Shanghai and the plane ride are great, perhaps even better than most scenes in the other three films.
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post #95 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

George Lucas says himself says on the commentary, that the orginal story he wrote had been running thin or something like that. So he had to fill in the gaps with this one.

I guess if he knew from the beginning that he was going to make 3 movies, He wouldnt have blown up the death star in the first movie.

The problem is, he claims he had the whole story (including the "it's all about Anakin" idea) laid out way back before the first movie was even made, so I'd say that's a contradiction.
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post #96 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR View Post

The problem is, he claims he had the whole story (including the "it's all about Anakin" idea) laid out way back before the first movie was even made, so I'd say that's a contradiction.

He had most of the story, in terms of Darth Vader, the Emperor, Anakin etc etc complete.

But he had not every detail finished. And what what was left at the end of the story wasnt enough to fill an entire movie.

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post #97 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Kyle_D View Post

Not at all. Skull, quite simply, has a terribly constructed screenplay. It pads the set-pieces with long, drawn-out stretches of expository dialogue that can work on the page in something like The DaVinci Code (the novel), but it just doesn't work on screen. Koepp ignored the first rule of screenwriting: Show. Don't tell.

Compare this to Raiders, where the bulk of the exposition is handled in that early scene where Indy is commissioned to go after the Ark. In that scene, we learn everything we need to know about the Ark and why the Nazi's want it. For the rest of the movie, all exposition is handled either in the midst of action or in scenes of character building.

One of my other problems with Skull was that I didn't give a rat's ass about the Macguffin--crystal skulls have ZERO historical "weight" to them. They're artifacts made up in the 19th century, and have NO connection to any ancient civilization. Recall the scene where Belloq calls Indy's bluff when he threatens to blow up the Ark with a bazooka. No one can tell me that Indy would care at all about destroying a crystal skull (unless doing so harmed Marian or something else having nothing to do with the value of the skulls per se).
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post #98 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 01:26 PM
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I like them all in their own way but to be honest I do prefer Temple above them all. It's just a fun movie and receives what I believe to be insincere hate by some. It seems to be the popular movie to rag on (well second to KotCS now).
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post #99 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pcweber111 View Post

I like them all in their own way but to be honest I do prefer Temple above them all. It's just a fun movie and receives what I believe to be insincere hate by some. It seems to be the popular movie to rag on (well second to KotCS now).

Well we all have different taste.

But for me Doom is a B-movie with a B-movie feel.

And Raiders is a B-movie with a A-movie feel.

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post #100 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by giantchicken View Post

They were obviously reacting to the darkness of the second film, but in my opinion they over corrected and went to far in the opposite direction.

Hmmm...that is an interesting and rather sound theory IMO.

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post #101 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Hmmm...that is an interesting and rather sound theory IMO.

Doom (and Gremlins actually) led to the invention of the PG13 rating.
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post #102 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Well we all have different taste.

But for me Doom is a B-movie with a B-movie feel.

And Raiders is a B-movie with a A-movie feel.

We'll agree to disagree.
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post #103 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Doom (and Gremlins actually) led to the invention of the PG13 rating.

Huh?

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post #104 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 08:58 PM
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I think TOD has the most entertaining opening. As much as I love how Raiders opens, by TOD, we already knew Indy and we were damn primed for another adventure.
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post #105 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by HarrisonS View Post

The problem with TOD is that it bogs down in the middle. For the better part of an hour it is confined to the underground temple activities with human sacrifices. I find this very grim and depressing, and also very slow moving and a bit boring.

This is the heart of the movie and a welcome respite from the over the top comedy of Willie Scott and Short Round. It's also the closest the series ever got to the '30s adventure movies that inspired Lucas and Spielberg. Plus, Amrish Puri is terrific.

What I could do without in TOD is the whole journey by elephant earlier in the film.

The Last Crusade is excellent, but some of the action set-pieces just lumber along.
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post #106 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 09:28 PM
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^ You sum up my feelings to a large degree. Honestly though there's not much about ToD that I don't like. It seemed the most....adventury for lack of better terms lol.
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post #107 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 09:28 PM
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Temple of Doom provided one of my favorite moviegoing memories growing up--my mom took me to see it on opening day (I was nine at the time) and she went to get popcorn right when it was about to start. She came back to her seat midway through the opening song and saw all the tap dancing and told me that we were in the wrong theater and it was the wrong movie. I had seen the title come up, so I knew she was wrong and in a sudden panic I tried to explain to her that it really was the new Indy movie and she needed to sit down and be patient. I remember being terrified that she was really going to drag me out of my seat, lol.

Thankfully she believed me--and from the club battle and ensuing car chase to the plane crash and life raft escape to the jungle scenes, disgusting dinner, spike room, scary temple scenes, rescue of the slave children, the fight on and around the conveyor belt, mine car chase, climax on the rope bridge, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen for two hours. The tone of the middle act was grim, but having been through the darkness, Indy's wink to Short Round and subsequent heroism feel more "earned" and the climactic scenes are more of a payoff after all we had been through leading up to them.

And Mola Ram is (in my opinion) the most iconic villain of the series.

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post #108 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by giantchicken View Post

Temple of Doom provided one of my favorite moviegoing memories growing up--my mom took me to see it on opening day (I was nine at the time) and she went to get popcorn right when it was about to start. She came back to her seat midway through the opening song and saw all the tap dancing and told me that we were in the wrong theater and it was the wrong movie. I had seen the title come up, so I knew she was wrong and in a sudden panic I tried to explain to her that it really was the new Indy movie and she needed to sit down and be patient. I remember being terrified that she was really going to drag me out of my seat, lol.

Thankfully she believed me--and from the club battle and ensuing car chase to the plane crash and life raft escape to the jungle scenes, disgusting dinner, spike room, scary temple scenes, rescue of the slave children, the fight on and around the conveyor belt, mine car chase, climax on the rope bridge, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen for two hours. The tone of the middle act was grim, but having been through the darkness, Indy's wink to Short Round and subsequent heroism feel more "earned" and the climactic scenes are more of a payoff after all we had been through leading up to them.

And Mola Ram is (in my opinion) the most iconic villain of the series.

This is a great post and you explained it better than I ever could. My feeling is you had to be a certain age in order to catch the magic on this one and it seems to stick with us into our adult lives. I wonder if the reason why I didnt care much for the latest Indy or the last three Star Wars is because I'm not a kid anymore, or they simply just don't make movies like they used to.

By the way, you forgot the part when all the children are rushing back into the village and the music cuts in.... still gives me the chills.
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post #109 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Huh?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/movies...3rating24.html


"It has been two decades since the summer of 1984, when "Gremlins" and "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" caused an uproar among some parents who took their young children to the PG-rated films and walked out wishing the rating had suggested more guidance than just "parental guidance suggested."

The solution became the PG-13 rating.

But instead of being solely an extra warning to parents, as it was originally conceived, it has evolved into the preferred rating of studios and filmmakers. As Steven Spielberg told The Associated Press recently, PG-13 puts "hot sauce" on a movie in the viewer's mind.

The genesis of PG-13 is directly linked to Spielberg, who in 1984 became a lightning rod for parental ire.

"I created the problem and I also supplied the solution ... I invented the rating," Spielberg, the producer of "Gremlins" and director of "Temple of Doom," said in a recent interview.

With no middle-ground between PG and R, the ratings board of the 1980s frequently wrestled with the right way to classify movies that should and should not be viewed by children. The flaw in the Motion Picture Association of America's rating system was that it lumped all children -- from infants to 17-year-olds -- into the same group.

Maybe the "Gremlin" who met his steaming, grisly demise inside that kitchen appliance, or the chest-popping human sacrifice that put the doom in "Temple of Doom," were too graphic for grade-school kids, but what about the teenage couples looking for a scary reason to cuddle in the movie theater?

Ultimately, both movies made it to theaters with the PG designation.

After "Temple of Doom" opened May 23, some parents complained to theater managers and the ratings board that their kids were mortified, and news reports began questioning whether the ratings board was being too lax.

Jack Valenti, the longtime MPAA head who recently announced his retirement, told the AP that the heart scene was the catalyst. "By today's standards it's not a big deal," he said. "But it was pretty off-putting. And there was a real problem about how to label that picture."

"Everybody was screaming, screaming, screaming that it should have had an R-rating, and I didn't agree," Spielberg said.

The debate might have faded there if not for "Gremlins," which came out two weeks later.

Joe Dante, the director of "Gremlins," and later "Small Soldiers" and "Looney Tunes: Back in Action," blames the backlash on the early trailers.

They focused mostly on Gizmo -- a friendly, teddy bearlike creature called a Mogwai, which multiplies in water. But it neglected Gizmo's clones, which go through a metamorphosis that turns them into ghoulish, murderous troublemakers.

Dante said the spots also were deliberately "imitating the color and style of the 'E.T.' ads" from two years earlier, hoping to draw people in based on Spielberg's producer credit.

"So the idea of taking a 4-year-old to see 'Gremlins,' thinking it's going to be a cuddly, funny animal movie and then seeing that it turns into a horror picture, I think people were upset," Dante told the AP. "They felt like they had been sold something family friendly and it wasn't entirely family friendly."

But it still became a hit, collecting $150 million. "Temple of Doom" earned $180 million, proving there was an audience that loved movies that mixed wholesomeness with horror.

Clearly there would be more films like this. "There was no way of going back and making the content less hard, because people did expect certain things from these pictures and you had to give them those," Dante said.

But there remained the problem of how to keep little kids away while attracting adults and teens.

Spielberg thought it was an easy fix.

"I went to Jack Valenti, who's a friend of mine, and I said, 'Jack, why don't we do a rating called PG-13, which would suit films like "Gremlins" and "Indy 2"?' " Spielberg said. "So I called Jack, and Jack said, 'Leave it to me ... ' "

Valenti took the idea to the National Association of Theater Owners, Hollywood's writer, actor and director guilds, the studio bosses and assorted religious organizations.

"I didn't seek their approval or anything," Valenti said. "Didn't have to. But I certainly conferred with all of them."

He agreed to make the distinction at 13, saying that was an age when most kids knew the difference between fantasy and reality.

"The child behavioral experts will tell you that not all 13s are alike, not all 14s are alike, not all 12s are alike," Valenti said. "In the end, as I have stated numberless times, it is the parent who has to make this judgment."
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post #110 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

This is a great post and you explained it better than I ever could. My feeling is you had to be a certain age in order to catch the magic on this one and it seems to stick with us into our adult lives. I wonder if the reason why I didnt care much for the latest Indy or the last three Star Wars is because I'm not a kid anymore, or they simply just don't make movies like they used to.

Well I saw both Raiders and Doom when I was a kid, and I loved both.

But when I saw them later in life, I was impressed that Raiders was a much better movie then I remembered as a kid. But for Doom it was the opposite. It hadnt aged aswell. Sure Harrison Ford is great, but its to much screaming and "O no Dr Jones" comments.

So I usually calls movies like that RIP (Rest in peace, because the memory was better then the actual movie was)

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post #111 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

This is a great post and you explained it better than I ever could. My feeling is you had to be a certain age in order to catch the magic on this one and it seems to stick with us into our adult lives. I wonder if the reason why I didnt care much for the latest Indy or the last three Star Wars is because I'm not a kid anymore, or they simply just don't make movies like they used to.

nicely said, Shamus. I was 16 when doom came out but still felt thrilled, even if it was sometimes broad, cheesy and over the top. The fistfight at the end when Indy keeps getting stabbed in the back with the voodoo doll and it's incapacitating him was frustratingly tense, (in a good way) and then when Short Round saved the day and Indy was free from the spell of the doll and looked up you just KNEW it was MAJOR ass-whooping time. And the audience I saw it with back then went absolutely apeshit. And when the iconic shot of Indy coming back to full strength happened it was just one of those absolutely perfect movie moments. Nothing in Crusade held a candle to the last 20 minutes of Doom IMHO...
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post #112 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieSwede View Post

Well I saw both Raiders and Doom when I was a kid, and I loved both.

But when I saw them later in life, I was impressed that Raiders was a much better movie then I remembered as a kid. But for Doom it was the opposite. It hadnt aged aswell. Sure Harrison Ford is great, but its to much screaming and "O no Dr Jones" comments.

So I usually calls movies like that RIP (Rest in peace, because the memory was better then the actual movie was)

I do agree that Raiders aged better, but as a kid I liked Doom the best. Monkey brains, bugs, secret passages, ripping out hearts... everything a kid wants.

You are so right about that RIP thing though. You dont know how many movies I went back to try and revisit (mostly b horror/scfi movies) that I just should of just let be.
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post #113 of 326 Old 02-01-2009, 10:30 PM
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nicely said, Shamus. I was 16 when doom came out but still felt thrilled, even if it was sometimes broad, cheesy and over the top. The fistfight at the end when Indy keeps getting stabbed in the back with the voodoo doll and it's incapacitating him was frustratingly tense, (in a good way) and then when Short Round saved the day and Indy was free from the spell of the doll and looked up you just KNEW it was MAJOR ass-whooping time. And the audience I saw it with back then went absolutely apeshit. And when the iconic shot of Indy coming back to full strength happened it was just one of those absolutely perfect movie moments. Nothing in Crusade held a candle to the last 20 minutes of Doom IMHO...

I think I might have to go pop in Temple now... havent used standard DVD in quite sometime.
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havent used standard DVD in quite sometime.

RIP dvd
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post #115 of 326 Old 02-02-2009, 12:45 AM
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Ah gee, I forgot about ToD being a part of the Gremlin hoopla.

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post #116 of 326 Old 02-02-2009, 07:03 AM
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Great discussion!

Growing up, my favorites were always Raiders and Crusade, with Temple coming in last. Over the years, however, I've grown more fond of Temple than Crusade. Crusade just hasn't aged very well.

Raiders, on the other hand, just gets better and better as the years go by. An absolute perfect movie.

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post #117 of 326 Old 02-02-2009, 11:03 AM
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As far as the PG13 business goes, I went to see Temple of Doom when it came out, when I was in my mid-thirties. I liked it so well I persuaded a couple to go see it with me a week or so later. My impressions of it was "slam-bang action picture". They were in their early forties.

It scared Beth so much she had to hide her eyes and finally go out to the lobby.

CW Hinkle
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post #118 of 326 Old 02-02-2009, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shamus View Post

I think I might have to go pop in Temple now... havent used standard DVD in quite sometime.

At least Temple of Doom is an absolute reference quality DVD if I recall (I too haven't watched it in a while).

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post #119 of 326 Old 02-02-2009, 01:58 PM
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I think I might have to go pop in Temple now... havent used standard DVD in quite sometime.

I did this just recently... be sure to notice at the beginning in Club Obi Wan where Indy punches a waitress in the face. Made me LOL. Don't remember that.
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post #120 of 326 Old 02-02-2009, 04:02 PM
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According to Digital Bits, Indy is the "real deal" this 4th qtr.

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/rumormill.html#020209

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