"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 05:37 AM
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I have read that the Pioneer Kuro non-elite 9G (5020, 6020) has the DRE setting locked to the viewing modes. They set DRE off in Game and Movie mode, and therefore these two modes clip the whites above 235. These are the two modes I use as Day and Night mode, and this is why my set was clipping the whites. The other modes turn DRE on, but also add other enhancements that seem to degrade or exagerate the picture.

Mode---------DRE Setting
Dynamic------ High
Performance-- Mid
Movie-------- Off
Sports------- Mid
Game-------- Off
Standard----- Mid

So I am using Game and Movie mode with the player's contrast setting knocked down to -2 and deep color set to 36 bit.

Thanks for the great test disc, the display science education, and the follow up advice.
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post #272 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

The 101/KRP panels clip unless DRE (low) is enabled. The 111 may have the same constraint.

I have the same problem only with both right hand "bad" squares using YCC. There's no problem when I set the player to RGB (235). I have a KRP-500M (1080p) and a Sony S550.

It worked! I am using ISFccc modes (Auto/Day/Night) and must have turned the DRE off. After I turned it on (mid or high), the smaller boxes appear in the white box on the Clipping test.

I can also get the box to appear on the lower right on the Chroma Burst pattern by changing to RGB. I'm not sure if I should use RGB, though, for regular viewing. Is it better to use the YCbCr (4:2:2 or 4:4:4 for my Sony BDP)?

Thanks so much for your help, bodosom and gearguy!!

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post #273 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 01:08 PM
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I can also get the box to appear on the lower right on the Chroma Burst pattern by changing to RGB. I'm not sure if I should use RGB, though, for regular viewing. Is it better to use the YCbCr (4:2:2 or 4:4:4 for my Sony BDP)?

You want to use the color space that produces the best results. We will cover this in a future article, for now look at the chroma alignment, chroma MB, luma MB, dynamic range high patterns and compare all of the output options.

You may need to re-adjust your picture controls as you compare the various color spaces to compensate for level differences.
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post #274 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerianne View Post

I'm not sure if I should use RGB, though, for regular viewing.

One of the nice things about this disc is the ability to work at which component is weak or misconfigured. If you get the same results on all the tests but one (or some small number) then use the configuration that passes more tests.

By the way, there may be other eval discs but the only one I've used is HQVHD which is ... less useful ... as an HD evaluation tool.
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post #275 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

You want to use the color space that produces the best results. We will cover this in a future article, for now look at the chroma alignment, chroma MB, luma MB, dynamic range high patterns and compare all of the output options.

You may need to re-adjust your picture controls as you compare the various color spaces to compensate for level differences.

Thanks, Stacey. Prior to this, I've been use the Auto setting on the Sony Blu-ray player. Seems to be okay like that. I might just go with that until I learn just a bit more about it and/or read the future article!

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post #276 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 06:46 PM
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I just used the disc to check some things on my PRO-150FD 8G Kuro. With DRE "off" I can see up to 250 on the contrast pattern. That should be plenty for peak whites. DRE "low" doesn't make a difference.

But, I did see an issue with the clipping pattern. With my color setting at +6, which makes the HD color bars look correct using the DVE blue filter, I am clipping R, B, and G boxes. If I put color back down to +1, I no longer clip but the "blue setup" is not quite right. Which is the better trade off - clipping R, G, and B or correct "blue setup"? Maybe the new blue filter that should be coming will show something a little different.

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post #277 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 07:47 PM
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I have a Sony Wega KDF-60WF655 Rear projection LCD. I tried the clipping test on this disc and noticed I got the best results with the OPPO BD83 set at 4-4-4 and reduced the contrast on the Oppo.Is this normal to do because the auto setting did not produce the best results.
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post #278 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 07:48 PM
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Stacey/Don,

Have you or anyone else used your disc's benchmarks to rate/compare players or displays yet? It would be very handy to be able to compare players and displays based on your disc. Most of us only have one type of player or display, so we don't know if what we are seeing is relatively good or bad. Plus, if it is time to purchase a new player or display, it would be great to know how they all match up.

I can imagine that you might want to stay away from seeminglypromoting any one type of display or player, but an unbiased comparison would be great to have.

"A city on a hill cannot be hidden..."
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post #279 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BluCheez View Post

Stacey/Don,

Have you or anyone else used your disc's benchmarks to rate/compare players or displays yet?

Sounds like a new "Official" thread.
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post #280 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 08:21 PM
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I got the best results with the OPPO BD83 set at 4-4-4 and reduced the contrast on the Oppo.Is this normal to do because the auto setting did not produce the best results.

The auto setting does not mean you will get the best results. Usually it is to ensure you get an image. The display manufacturer will list the resolutions, frame rates and color spaces it supports in its EDID. The device will use this information to set the defaults.

It is best to go through all of the color spaces using the patterns and figure out which mode will produce the best results. When we eventually get to that article, we plan to include a check list to follow. We will probably offer a PDF to download and printout.
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post #281 of 1227 Old 06-11-2009, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

I just used the disc to check some things on my PRO-150FD 8G Kuro. With DRE "off" I can see up to 250 on the contrast pattern. That should be plenty for peak whites. DRE "low" doesn't make a difference.

But, I did see an issue with the clipping pattern. With my color setting at +6, which makes the HD color bars look correct using the DVE blue filter, I am clipping R, B, and G boxes. If I put color back down to +1, I no longer clip but the "blue setup" is not quite right. Which is the better trade off - clipping R, G, and B or correct "blue setup"? Maybe the new blue filter that should be coming will show something a little different.

larry

Yes, this is what I saw regarding the DRE with my 111FD as well, Larry. I also found that it does, indeed, make a difference when filters provided with different calibration disks are used. I have three different ones I've been trying to use with the S&M Benchmark Blu-ray, and it seems that the ones from Avia-II and GetGray agree, while the one provided with the DVE Video Essentials Blu-ray is a bit different. I went with the 'majority rule' while adjusting. Seemed to work well as the colors looked very natural when looking at some reference Blu-rays that I use.

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post #282 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerianne View Post

Yes, this is what I saw regarding the DRE with my 111FD as well, Larry. I also found that it does, indeed, make a difference when filters provided with different calibration disks are used. I have three different ones I've been trying to use with the S&M Benchmark Blu-ray, and it seems that the ones from Avia-II and GetGray agree, while the one provided with the DVE Video Essentials Blu-ray is a bit different. I went with the 'majority rule' while adjusting. Seemed to work well as the colors looked very natural when looking at some reference Blu-rays that I use.

Greg

I think I have another filter somewhere, also. If your color setting came more back to neutral on the slider, that would be good.

But I'd still like to know what is the better trade off if things don't change, i.e. how often would one run into RGB values that would be clipped.

larry

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post #283 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

I think I have another filter somewhere, also. If your color setting came more back to neutral on the slider, that would be good.

But I'd still like to know what is the better trade off if things don't change, i.e. how often would one run into RGB values that would be clipped.

larry

That's a good question - one I don't know the answer to! I'm curious about this topic myself.

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post #284 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by gerianne View Post

That's a good question - one I don't know the answer to! I'm curious about this topic myself.

I remembered a discussion about setting contrast in the calibration forum and I found a link back to this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=169 (start here and for the next few posts)

Having R'G'B' values above 235 clipped is not really what you want to happen. Even though YCbCr is sent to the display it gets converted to RGB eventually. Raising the color adjuster on the display causes clipping and could cause some banding. I'd rather have color that is slightly incorrect than "crushed" colors. That's how I interpret what was said.

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post #285 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

I remembered a discussion about setting contrast in the calibration forum and I found a link back to this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=169 (start here and for the next few posts)

Having R'G'B' values above 235 clipped is not really what you want to happen. Even though YCbCr is sent to the display it gets converted to RGB eventually. Raising the color adjuster on the display causes clipping and could cause some banding. I'd rather have color that is slightly incorrect than "crushed" colors. That's how I interpret what was said.

larry

Thanks, Larry. I hadn't read that particular link, but I've read the rationale before and I think I understand it.

In following a little further back from that link, I came across this link regarding a S&M Calibration Filter. Do you know where to get this? Have you used it?

Don, Stacey can you point me to the right place to find out more about it? Seems like a lot of the problem I have setting color is due to the filters I'm using with my 111FD.

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I came across this link regarding a S&M Calibration Filter. Do you know where to get this? Have you used it?

We have received a tracking number from the manufacturer. They should be in stock soon. Once they are, they willl start to be sent out to those who have the disc.
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post #287 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

We have received a tracking number from the manufacturer. They should be in stock soon. Once they are, they willl start to be sent out to those who have the disc.

Great!! Thanks so much, Stacey. I'm hoping that may resolve the problems trying to decide which filter is 'right' when adjusting color without equipment.

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post #288 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 08:39 AM
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If CMS is used in the display, then a blue filter may not work. We will cover this in the color/tint article.

The contrast article will go up next week. It is finished, just creating the images now. The color/tint will follow much sooner. Our time is split between many projects, so we are behind.
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post #289 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

If CMS is used in the display, then a blue filter may not work. We will cover this in the color/tint article.

The contrast article will go up next week. It is finished, just creating the images now. The color/tint will follow much sooner. Our time is split between many projects, so we are behind.

I'll look forward to it! I think we all can imagine how busy you are and appreciate your efforts to help us out, educate us, and provide support for a great product! My thanks.

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post #290 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 10:11 AM
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I think if I had to choose, I'd rather set color at the correct level even if it resulted in clipping above reference levels. Obviously I'd prefer not to have to make the choice. But in general getting the color levels matched is important to the picture. Lowering the Color setting below the correct level reduces color saturation, which is a big part of perceived quality.

Also, the point of reference levels is that a watchable picture should result if a display clips above reference. Unfortunately that's not guaranteed to work, because the people mastering the video don't actually do the quality control on a display that clips. They really don't know exactly what a clipped display looks like. So it's supposed to look fine, but no one is checking if it really does. But in practice, watching on a clipped display will mostly look OK.

One way to look at it is that having the Color set too low affects the overall color saturation of the display all the time in a visible way (except in black-and-white movies), whereas clipping affects only the brightest colors and highlights.

On the other hand, really bad clipping can make a scene look awful, whereas turning Color down a small amount will generally be unnoticeable to the naked eye. So the worst-case performance of a clipped picture is worse than the worst-case of a desaturated picture.

So I suppose it comes down to how you weight the worst case vs. the common case. Avoiding clipping mitigates the worst cases. Avoiding desaturation optimizes for the common case.

I think I just argued both sides. Does that help at all?
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post #291 of 1227 Old 06-12-2009, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

I think if I had to choose, I'd rather set color at the correct level even if it resulted in clipping above reference levels. ...

Thanks, Don. It actually does help. I think I made the right decision (for now, anyway, until I learn a bit more) of setting the color between clipping and not clipping. Of course, without proper equipment there's no way to tell for sure, but just by eyeballing it with some of my Blu-ray disks, the picture looks great using that setting.

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post #292 of 1227 Old 06-13-2009, 02:13 AM
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I have a question regarding the follow up grain example you released as a torrent. You say:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MPEG-2 does not have a loop filter, so there are fewer encodes. The MPEG-2 and AVC were encoded using the same professional Blu-ray encoder. This encoder also offers a DVNR plug-in from Digital Vision. This is the same DVNR algorithm used on many Blu-ray titles. We left the DVNR at the default strength of 7, out of 15. VC-1 has an additional encode using a feature called the Overlap Transform. We are not aware of any Blu-ray titles that have been encoded with this enabled. It is off by default in the encoder.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you wanted to demonstrate the effect of different loop filters and how it possibly could explain the difference in detail between T2 editions I don't understand why you added the additionable variable of DVNR within the encoder. 7 is not off, right? It should be off for such a comparison. Or once on and once off. I would not be surprised if the T2 differences were simlpy due to DVNR on for the new encoding (which would basically confirm the original suspicion) and on the old it's off while the loop filter differences contribute less to perceived differences.
PS Getting knowhere with the ISO file since I have no BD burner. Is there free software on Linux or Windows to extract files the PS3 can play from hard disk or via streaming?
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post #293 of 1227 Old 06-13-2009, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

I think if I had to choose, I'd rather set color at the correct level even if it resulted in clipping above reference levels. Obviously I'd prefer not to have to make the choice. But in general getting the color levels matched is important to the picture. Lowering the Color setting below the correct level reduces color saturation, which is a big part of perceived quality.

Also, the point of reference levels is that a watchable picture should result if a display clips above reference. Unfortunately that's not guaranteed to work, because the people mastering the video don't actually do the quality control on a display that clips. They really don't know exactly what a clipped display looks like. So it's supposed to look fine, but no one is checking if it really does. But in practice, watching on a clipped display will mostly look OK.

One way to look at it is that having the Color set too low affects the overall color saturation of the display all the time in a visible way (except in black-and-white movies), whereas clipping affects only the brightest colors and highlights.

On the other hand, really bad clipping can make a scene look awful, whereas turning Color down a small amount will generally be unnoticeable to the naked eye. So the worst-case performance of a clipped picture is worse than the worst-case of a desaturated picture.

So I suppose it comes down to how you weight the worst case vs. the common case. Avoiding clipping mitigates the worst cases. Avoiding desaturation optimizes for the common case.

I think I just argued both sides. Does that help at all?

Thanks.

I was worried about turning color down would "wash out" things a bit and I still haven't decided if it does a noticeable (or maybe an unsatisfactory) amount. I haven't used the new settings much yet and I will move the color back at various times to see if it really is a big change. A couple of times I thought it looked a little drab and then I raised the color back and didn't see a big change. I'm going to let it as (moved down from +6 to +1) and see how things go after a week or so and more viewing. It will be nice to get the new blue filter. I have 2 S&M discs so the chance of getting at least one filter is high.

I don't recall seeing the values for the R, G, B squares on the clipping pattern. Are they the same values used in Stacey's pic post?

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post #294 of 1227 Old 06-13-2009, 08:22 AM
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I don't understand why you added the additionable variable of DVNR within the encoder. 7 is not off, right? It should be off for such a comparison.

Correct, 7 is not off. We did include both loop filter off and on examples w/o DVNR. The menu has:

20/30 Loop Off
20/30 Loop On
20/30 Loop On w/ DVNR
30/40 Loop Off
30/40 Loop On

The n/n is average and peak bitrate.

The point of the disc was to provide an example of content with and without the loop filter. The DVNR was an added bonus. I think once people see it, they will no longer fear the loop filter. The goal was to try and stop people from blaming the loop filter.
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post #295 of 1227 Old 06-15-2009, 10:53 AM
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We just posted the article on setting contrast.
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post #296 of 1227 Old 06-15-2009, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

We just posted the article on setting contrast.

So, is it okay for some of the contrast bars to look very slightly pink - even if they are not clipping? Using my display, if I turn my contrast down 6 clicks, the pink disappears and the bars are pure grey, but I'm losing some contrast, of course. I think I'd rather have a little more contrast, but I don't want to hurt detail either. The pinkness on the pattern I referred to from a higher contrast doesn't seem to be visible in regular viewing. My display is a Sony SXRD A3000 (LCOS).

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post #297 of 1227 Old 06-15-2009, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

So, is it okay for some of the contrast bars to look very slightly pink - even if they are not clipping? Using my display, if I turn my contrast down 6 clicks, the pink disappears and the bars are pure grey, but I'm losing some contrast, of course. I think I'd rather have a little more contrast, but I don't want to hurt detail either. The pinkness on the pattern I referred to from a higher contrast doesn't seem to be visible in regular viewing. My display is a Sony SXRD A3000 (LCOS).

If the bars are shifting color, it means one or more channels are clipping. If it looks pink, most likely the green channel is clipping and it's turning magenta. The Clipping pattern can tell you more.

Whether that's a problem is more of a judgment call than a simple answer. If you really need the contrast, then compromising on the very highest peaks is a perfectly fine idea. If you've already got plenty of contrast, you can probably afford to have good color reproduction all the way up to peak.

Do you have good light control? Are you watching in pitch black, fully-lit room, or something in between? If it's pitch black, then I'd lean more toward turning down contrast. If there's a lot of light in the room, I'd be more inclined to maximize reference contrast.
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Originally Posted by dmunsil View Post

If the bars are shifting color, it means one or more channels are clipping. If it looks pink, most likely the green channel is clipping and it's turning magenta. The Clipping pattern can tell you more.

Whether that's a problem is more of a judgment call than a simple answer. If you really need the contrast, then compromising on the very highest peaks is a perfectly fine idea. If you've already got plenty of contrast, you can probably afford to have good color reproduction all the way up to peak.

Do you have good light control? Are you watching in pitch black, fully-lit room, or something in between? If it's pitch black, then I'd lean more toward turning down contrast. If there's a lot of light in the room, I'd be more inclined to maximize reference contrast.

Yes, my viewing is in a dark room. Despite a little pink on the contrast pattern, I checked the color channel boxes (as mentioned in your contrast article) and I saw nothing being clipped...even in green; however, I seem to recall the areas with the box easier to see with 6 clicks lower in contrast. They were still visible with contrast being boosted, but a little more visible with contrast lower.

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post #299 of 1227 Old 06-15-2009, 02:03 PM
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In the quoted section below saying display is confusing me. Did you mean adjusting on the player?
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If you use one of those higher-bit modes, adjusting video settings on the display is probably going to be workable ...

Your absolute light level numbers seem a bit hight but maybe that's because I'm a plasma owner. 44fL in a dark room and 88fL in a moderate room seem pretty bright.
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post #300 of 1227 Old 06-15-2009, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

We just posted the article on setting contrast.

The article is great!! Thank so much. It explained a couple of things I was still a bit unclear about. I do have one question, though: are there any scenes in the montage that demonstrate above peak white levels? I'd like to see the difference between calibrating to reference white vs. whiter than white.

Thanks again for an informative article!!

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