"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

When people talk about white balance they are usually talking about gray scale. This is adjusted using window patterns and a color analyzer. You can use the 11-step gray bars pattern if your display has user color temp modes. They are usually called something like warm, cool, etc... Look at the bars and change the setting. The bars may go blue in one setting and red in other. The idea is the find the bars where they are the purest form of gray. Its hard to do without a reference. If you had a gray card and a D65 light, you could use that.

A color filter is used to adjust color and tint. Hue is the same thing as tint. It should not be needed for HD. In some rare cases it is.



No, not at all. The calibration filter article on our site is not a "how to set color" article, It is a "how to know if the filter can be used to set color and tint" article. If the bars that are supposed to be black are not black, then you can't use the filter to set color and tint.

The how to set color and tint article is in the works.

Thanks Stacey,
I think I am on the right track using the Warm2 color temp setting. So you're not supposed to use the color filters at all for fine tuning white balance? It's just strictly for color and hue? That explains a lot, thanks. So the only real way to accurately fine tune white balance (red gain etc.) is with a professional meter, correct?

Using the blue filter, I was able to adjust the "color" setting until most of the bars matched in blue intensity, is that what I'm going for? (I think the small magenta bar in the middle row was brighter for some reason)
And, if color is correctly set, shouldn't it have passed the Chroma test? Making changes to the variouis settings had no visible effect on the chroma test; I still saw no symmetry on the crosshairs...
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post #452 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 10:23 AM
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When setting color, you use the blue and white bars that are on the outside of the pattern. For tint, you use magenta and cyan.

Which chroma test, chroma alignment? If so, then no. Your video signal is made up of a Y channel and a Cb and Cr channel. The Cb and Cr are the chroma channels. The chroma alignment test tells you if these three signal are aligned. The YC delay adjustment control in the OPPO, that Don mentioned, adjust Cb/Cr in relation to Y. This allows you to align them if they are not aligned.

The B&W lines on the alignment pattern are looking at panel alignment on a 3-chip display. They are also for chromatic abberation on a lens.
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post #453 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

When setting color, you use the blue and white bars that are on the outside of the pattern. For tint, you use magenta and cyan.

Which chroma test, chroma alignment? If so, then no. Your video signal is made up of a Y channel and a Cb and Cr channel. The Cb and Cr are the chroma channels. The chroma alignment test tells you if these three signal are aligned. The YC delay adjustment control in the OPPO, that Don mentioned, adjust Cb/Cr in relation to Y. This allows you to align them if they are not aligned.

The B&W lines on the alignment pattern are looking at panel alignment on a 3-chip display. They are also for chromatic abberation on a lens.

Yes I think it was the alignment test, with the long, narrow crosshairs. It sounds like there is nothing I can do for that.

Ok, so I want to stop adjusting "color" as soon as the blue and white bars match, and then move on to "hue" and adjust that until the cyan and magenta match?

thank you!
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post #454 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 11:06 AM
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Ok, so I want to stop adjusting "color" as soon as the blue and white bars match, and then move on to "hue" and adjust that until the cyan and magenta match?

Yes.
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post #455 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Yes.

Excellent, thank you. One more quick question,

The help pop-up on the low pluge doesn't mention the checkerboard pattern on sides. On an LCD, do we want to be able to see the checkerboard, or not? Right now I have it so that I can just barely see it, but if I reduced brightness by one notch, it would disappear.
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post #456 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 11:16 AM
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Have you read the how to set brightness article on our website? It should cover that.

if the gamma is correct, the checker should be almost impossible to see from your seating position. If gamma is off, like on a Marantz DLP you can see it from another country.
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post #457 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Have you read the how to set brightness article on our website? It should cover that.

if the gamma is correct, the checker should be almost impossible to see from your seating position. If gamma is off, like on a Marantz DLP you can see it from another country.

Yes, I have read it but I wasn't sure if what was said just applied to DLP. I don't know if I'd say it's almost impossible to see, but it is definitely not noticeable at first glance. I don't know anything about gamma, but I have the backlight down as far as it will go.
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post #458 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Yes.

"if you are using HDMI, you may find that Tint (Hue) is locked out, which is appropriate. Tint is really only appropriate for analog sources where the chroma channels are composited into one channel."

I'm a bit confused by this. I'm using an HDMI, but when looking through the blue filter I'm not seeing uniformity in the magenta/cyan bars. Should I be attempting to adjust hue? Mine isn't locked out.

And, if I don't need to set hue because I'm using HDMI, am I basically just looking at the outer 2 bars (blue & white) to set color saturation and ignoring everything in between, even if the intensities don't match?

I appreciate all the help, sorry I keep coming back to this!
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post #459 of 1217 Old 11-03-2009, 02:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilante1 View Post

"if you are using HDMI, you may find that Tint (Hue) is locked out, which is appropriate. Tint is really only appropriate for analog sources where the chroma channels are composited into one channel."

I'm a bit confused by this. I'm using an HDMI, but when looking through the blue filter I'm not seeing uniformity in the magenta/cyan bars. Should I be attempting to adjust hue? Mine isn't locked out.

And, if I don't need to set hue because I'm using HDMI, am I basically just looking at the outer 2 bars (blue & white) to set color saturation and ignoring everything in between, even if the intensities don't match?

I appreciate all the help, sorry I keep coming back to this!

It may be present anyway, even if you're feeding the display RGB if it moves back to component to do its whee-bang-"magic" to your picture to make it all colory. So yes you would still adjust it. However, I would probably look first to check and see if green is the problem because it might be a color decoder problem. Generally, most displays these days actually handle color decoding correctly, which is a nice development. Adjusting tint is not usually very necessary, usually only saturation.
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post #460 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

It may be present anyway, even if you're feeding the display RGB if it moves back to component to do its whee-bang-"magic" to your picture to make it all colory. So yes you would still adjust it. However, I would probably look first to check and see if green is the problem because it might be a color decoder problem. Generally, most displays these days actually handle color decoding correctly, which is a nice development. Adjusting tint is not usually very necessary, usually only saturation.

I think the problem may have been that I was looking through the 1x filter. I didn't realize that there were different filter strengths. I was looking through them like 3d glasses lol. Looking through the 2x filter, everything looks uniform.

I also moved the blu-ray player into "enhanced color" mode instead of the default RGB and turned on "24p" mode. Are these settings desirable or do they just make the picture worse like many picture enhancement settings do?
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post #461 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilante1 View Post

I also moved the blu-ray player into "enhanced color" mode instead of the default RGB and turned on "24p" mode. Are these settings desirable or do they just make the picture worse like many picture enhancement settings do?

I read the entire thread yesterday in an effort to make a more informed decision about which color space to send from my Oppo to my 500M, and one of the things I changed on my setup was enabling Deep Color on my Oppo (I'm assuming "enhanced color" on your BD player is referring to Deep Color).

From what I read, there's no reason to enable Deep Color unless you're using the picture settings in your BD player to deal with display shortcomings when using a video RGB colorspace. The extra bit depth keeps the player from combining adjacent video levels when it does its conversion from the native colorspace to RGB, reducing or eliminating banding in the final image. No actual content has been produced in Deep Color, so unless you're doing what I described, Deep Color has no real benefit.

In my case, I enabled Deep Color (36-bit) because my 500M fails the chroma multiburst test in YUV 4:2:2 and YUV 4:4:4, so I send it RGB. In video RGB mode, it fails the clipping pattern test and clips WTW unless I drop the contrast setting on my Oppo to -3.

"24p" is for content shot at 24 frames per second (film). If your display supports a refresh rate that's an even multiple of 24, you should enable this setting (setting this to "auto" is probably fine).
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post #462 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post

No actual content has been produced in Deep Color, so unless you're doing what I described, Deep Color has no real benefit.

I think you're simplifying things a bit here.

Quote:


In my case, I enabled Deep Color (36-bit) because my 500M fails the chroma multiburst test in YUV 4:2:2 and YUV 4:4:4, so I send it RGB. In video RGB mode, it fails the clipping pattern test and clips WTW unless I drop the contrast setting on my Oppo to -3.

The Kuro 9G monitors all clip at some level above reference white (~240) and the only way to relax that clipping is to enable Dynamic Range Expansion. Adjusting the player is just compressing the dynamic range of the output to fit in the Pioneer clipping window.
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post #463 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 08:52 AM
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In the OPPO, deep color turns on the high bitdepth signal path in the ABT2010.
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post #464 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

In the OPPO, deep color turns on the high bitdepth signal path in the ABT2010.

Is this also what happens if you select OFF(dithered) or is that "real" dithering*?


*What? As opposed to integer?
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post #465 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 09:13 AM
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Deep color off would not apply any dither.
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post #466 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 10:21 AM
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Deep color off would not apply any dither.

Um, there's DC OFF(dithered) and DC OFF. I assume they're different although the release notes seem a bit vague.
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post #467 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 10:33 AM
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Stacey or Don,

I have a HDTV (DLP) with the Color Management System (CMS). If the CMS is turned on, I have the option of additionally tweaking the hue, saturation, and brightness for the red, green, blue, yellow, magenta, and cyan. Am I getting into more technical specifics than I'm able to accomplish myself using your suggestions and calibration disc or is this best left up to a professional with specialized equipment? I also have the option of turning off the CMS and just calibrating the color and tint. I'm not interested in having someone professionally calibrate my HDTV. I'm rather looking into rendering the best picture quality that I can do myself using your suggestions and calibration disc. Suggestions please? Thanks...
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post #468 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

I think you're simplifying things a bit here.

Feel free to expand upon it if it'll help vigilante1 with his question.

Quote:


The Kuro 9G monitors all clip at some level above reference white (~240) and the only way to relax that clipping is to enable Dynamic Range Expansion. Adjusting the player is just compressing the dynamic range of the output to fit in the Pioneer clipping window.

But if no adjacent video levels collapse into one another using this technique, what's the damage? What is compressed or lost?

It was this post by dmunsil that convinced me using the Oppo's contrast setting with 36-bit output might be a viable solution to avoid clipping WTW without having to enable DRE.
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post #469 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 11:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kevison View Post

Stacey or Don,

I have a HDTV (DLP) with the Color Management System (CMS). If the CMS is turned on, I have the option of additionally tweaking the hue, saturation, and brightness for the red, green, blue, yellow, magenta, and cyan. Am I getting into more technical specifics than I'm able to accomplish myself using your suggestions and calibration disc or is this best left up to a professional with specialized equipment? I also have the option of turning off the CMS and just calibrating the color and tint. I'm not interested in having someone professionally calibrate my HDTV. I'm rather looking into rendering the best picture quality that I can do myself using your suggestions and calibration disc. Suggestions please? Thanks...

To use a CMS you need to have measurement equipment, and fairly high-quality tools at that, not cheap colorimeters. A filter is completely inappropriate and totally useless in adjusting a CMS. The adjustments of saturation and hue angle with a CMS are actually adjusting the physical CIE locations of your primaries and secondaries, in other words actually adjusting saturation/hue as more accurately defined in color science. The user "saturation" and "hue/tint" adjustment that you are adjusting with a color filter is simply adjusting the relationship between your luma and chroma signals to achieve accurate color decoding and isn't affecting the physical location of where the colors are (well, it moves secondaries around, but again, very different principle).
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post #470 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post

But if no adjacent video levels collapse into one another using this technique, what's the damage? What is compressed or lost?


If there's no ultimate compression then nothing is lost. I'd love for Don to explain the process, assessment methods (is this working) and any constraints.
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post #471 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

To use a CMS you need to have measurement equipment, and fairly high-quality tools at that, not cheap colorimeters. A filter is completely inappropriate and totally useless in adjusting a CMS. The adjustments of saturation and hue angle with a CMS are actually adjusting the physical CIE locations of your primaries and secondaries, in other words actually adjusting saturation/hue as more accurately defined in color science. The user "saturation" and "hue/tint" adjustment that you are adjusting with a color filter is simply adjusting the relationship between your luma and chroma signals to achieve accurate color decoding and isn't affecting the physical location of where the colors are (well, it moves secondaries around, but again, very different principle).

Chris,

Thanks for your explanations.
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post #472 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Its 90% complete. Don is creating some graphs and addressing some of the comments I made.

Stacey,

Thanks for the update.
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post #473 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by thirdkind View Post

I read the entire thread yesterday in an effort to make a more informed decision about which color space to send from my Oppo to my 500M, and one of the things I changed on my setup was enabling Deep Color on my Oppo (I'm assuming "enhanced color" on your BD player is referring to Deep Color).

From what I read, there's no reason to enable Deep Color unless you're using the picture settings in your BD player to deal with display shortcomings when using a video RGB colorspace. The extra bit depth keeps the player from combining adjacent video levels when it does its conversion from the native colorspace to RGB, reducing or eliminating banding in the final image. No actual content has been produced in Deep Color, so unless you're doing what I described, Deep Color has no real benefit.

In my case, I enabled Deep Color (36-bit) because my 500M fails the chroma multiburst test in YUV 4:2:2 and YUV 4:4:4, so I send it RGB. In video RGB mode, it fails the clipping pattern test and clips WTW unless I drop the contrast setting on my Oppo to -3.

"24p" is for content shot at 24 frames per second (film). If your display supports a refresh rate that's an even multiple of 24, you should enable this setting (setting this to "auto" is probably fine).

So, are you saying that Deep color mode can cause your setup to fail certain tests, like the race car tests? And RGB mode causes your particular display to clip WTW, so you picked the lesser of two evils?

My blu-ray player is a simple panasonic dmp-bd60 with virtually no picture controls on the player (other than deep color and 24p). I have been making all display changes on my sony xbr4 monitor. Would you suggest that I stick to the RGB output in my case? It doesn't clip wtw for me.
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post #474 of 1217 Old 11-04-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vigilante1 View Post

So, are you saying that Deep color mode can cause your setup to fail certain tests, like the race car tests? And RGB mode causes your particular display to clip WTW, so you picked the lesser of two evils?

As far as I know, Deep Color mode shouldn't cause a display to fail any of the tests on the S&M disc, but don't quote me on that.

My display clips WTW no matter what colorspace is sent to it if a certain setting on my display, called DRE, is disabled. Since DRE causes some visual artifacts of its own, I prefer that it remains off. The only way to display WTW then is to lower the contrast setting on my BD player. If Don's post that I linked to is correct, then turning on Deep Color increases the bit depth that my BD player's video processing uses, preventing artifacts caused by the contrast setting changes I made.

Quote:


My blu-ray player is a simple panasonic dmp-bd60 with virtually no picture controls on the player (other than deep color and 24p). I have been making all display changes on my sony xbr4 monitor. Would you suggest that I stick to the RGB output in my case? It doesn't clip wtw for me.

As Stacey (sspears) has said, the right colorspace is dependent on many factors We'd need to know what your display does right and what it doesn't in order to make the best choice. I think the S&M article on colorspace selection is going to help a lot of us out in that regard.
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post #475 of 1217 Old 11-05-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Have you read the how to set brightness article on our website? It should cover that.

if the gamma is correct, the checker should be almost impossible to see from your seating position. If gamma is off, like on a Marantz DLP you can see it from another country.

HEY! I resemble that remark!

Actually though, in the NORMAL mode, the standard gamma is about as close to a perfect 2.2 that you can get with a bulb device. Not theater or dynamic. And Japan didn't even want to give me that one.

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post #476 of 1217 Old 11-05-2009, 03:19 PM
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I should have pointed out that that was in the expanded mode, sorry.

The problem with normal mode is that you are truncating head and toe room. Also a perfect 2.2 is not really the correct gamma for a display.

There are a few problems today. Off the top of my head:

1. sRGB defines a display gamma
2. 709 does not define a display gamma
3. Up until the BVMs were discontinued, they were the gold standard. They are roughly 2.4ish.
4. Panasonic plamsa's have a different gamma than a BVM. The Pro 11 series is kind of invading Hollywood post.

There is an effort underway to define a display gamma for post production. This would then apply to the home as well. This effort is shooting for a display gamma of 2.35. It is thought to be a nice compromise between 2.2 and 2.4.
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post #477 of 1217 Old 11-05-2009, 10:51 PM
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While you do lose to room, you get head room up to 255. And there are options in the custom settings for 2.4 as well.

On mine, I found that managing colors made a bigger difference. I'm at perfect 709 now in all 3 dimensions flat to 3 IRE.

Anyway, no hijacking going on here... even though I'm not with them any more, still a bit of a proud parent, ya know?

Back to the regularly scheduled thread.

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post #478 of 1217 Old 11-06-2009, 12:31 AM
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What about post houses that grade on pro LCDs? Aren't they typically a 2.2 gamma curve?

What's a safe gamma curve to shoot for to cover a wide range of HD content?
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post #479 of 1217 Old 11-06-2009, 07:47 AM
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What about post houses that grade on pro LCDs? Aren't they typically a 2.2 gamma curve?

No and that is the problem. They are all over the map. 2.4 is your best bet.
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post #480 of 1217 Old 11-12-2009, 08:54 AM
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I just watched the new UP blu-ray last night and noticed that they have a few calibration patterns included on the disk, so I thought I would give it a try just to see if anything was different. I was surprised to find that all of the test patterns implied that my TV was set up completely wrong, but I think the test patterns are incorrect. Why does this happen? If my set is calibrated perfectly using the s&m benchmark blu-ray then how can similar test patterns be way off? one example was the contrast setting where the white bars were supposed to be "invisible" but even w/ contrast at 100 I could still see them. Same for brightness, the black bars were all invisible unless I cranked it. I'm just confused, I mean, shouldn't "video black" for example look the same no matter what disc it's being displayed from??

Could my player be clipping on one disc but not on another? Is that even possible?
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