"High Definition Benchmark" BD Edition by Stacey Spears and Don Munsil - Page 21 - AVS Forum
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post #601 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 05:44 AM
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it seems to have to "ramp up" on one setting.

Interesting issue. Does this only occur when the menu comes and goes? What if you go to another pattern and then return to this pattern? What happens on the Dynamic Range High pattern?

Which display is this? Do you have any advanced settings enabled in the display?
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post #602 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 07:13 AM
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Hmm... not sure I really payed attention when changing back and forth between patterns... I'll have to check it out when I get home.

And if the Dynamic Range High pattern is the one with the flashing bars, it exhibits the same behavior if I open and close the menu, but the flashing of the bars themselves doesn't cause it.

The Dynamic Range High pattern is what made it interesting... i thought it could just be an issue of the sets internal components and/or backlight needing time to "adjust" to the upper end of the contrast range, but if that were the case it seems to me that each flash of the bars would garner the same behavior as me opening the menu.

Also, it's a Sharp LC-46E77UN, and I disable everything I see able to be disabled in the menu. For me that's "Fine Motion Enhanced" (Frame Interpolation) and "Active Contrast" (Dynamic Contrast). That was the first thing I checked because it seems as if a behavior something like Dynamic Contrast might cause... but it's disabled as far as I can see =/
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post #603 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 08:02 AM
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If it does not occur when you change patterns, it may just be some odd interaction with the internal menu of the display.

While viewing the contrast pattern, press the left arrow. That should take you to the previous pattern w/o using the disc menu. The press the right arrow to go back.

Also trying using the up arrow to display help and then down arrow to get rid of it and see if that is OK. If both are ok, and you have a smoother ramp in the middle, use that setting.

I was also thinking it might be some sort of dynamic contrast.
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post #604 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 11:04 AM
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A while back I had a clipping problem on my Pioneer 5020, where the green was clipped in every mode but movie, which was calibrated. Even in movie mode, the green was still "partially" clipped. Adjusting the contrast on the tv would not correct this problem. However, I have discovered that by lowering the contrast on my OPPO to -2 brings those clipping patterns to life in all modes including movie, game and standard. Also raising brightness to +1 on the OPPO combined with lowering the contrast, produced better results with the contrast and luge patterns. Adjusting those very same settings on the tv, without making adjustments on the OPPO had little if any improvement from the calibrated settings. From all I read on the forum, one should not really be adjusting the settings on the OPPO but on the monitor. But for me, it improved the overall PQ for movie watching that I could not get alone by adjusting the settings on the tv. Granted these changes will only affect the PQ while using the OPPO, and not cable box or internal tuner. So when one does get all colors not to clip, does that actually improve color, or just accuracy?
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post #605 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 08:18 PM
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Never mind my above post. I searched through this thread and found it acceptable to adjust contrast on the OPPO when using 36 bit deep color. gearguy77 did the same with his pioneer 5020 as I did with my 5020. (page 7 of this thread) It seems like the 5020 does have some clipping issues and adjusting the contrast down a few notches on the OPPO does produce much cleaner contrast ramps and also eliminates the color clipping problems with the color clipping patterns. I would not have thought a -2 notch contrast adjustment on the OPPO would produce such significant changes on all of those patterns, while doing the same on the Pioneer had little impact. I will watch a movie tonight to see if i notice any real change. I would think it is going to be subtle as the color bars were spot on in movie mode before and after adjusting the OPPO.
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post #606 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 09:34 PM
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wxman,

Originally it was recommended to lower the contrast a notch or two but I thought one of the firmware updates eliminated that.

Regardless of what the test patterns say, I would go with getting the best picture possible.

Keep in mind that there is a certain amount of white without detail in nature. The trick is to get that amount correct.

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post #607 of 1227 Old 03-04-2010, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

wxman,

Originally it was recommended to lower the contrast a notch or two but I thought one of the firmware updates eliminated that.

Regardless of what the test patterns say, I would go with getting the best picture possible.

Keep in mind that there is a certain amount of white without detail in nature. The trick is to get that amount correct.

Thanks. I guess it best to trust my calibration and not worry so much about what the test patterns are showing. I watched a movie tonight and switched between my calibrated settings, and then added the tweaks through the OPPO. Really didn't notice much of a difference in PQ, so will just leave the OPPO contrast set to 0 for now unless otherwise advised. I guess I'm being too anal.
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post #608 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 07:00 AM
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I wonder what's up with the contrast on these players. It's also been recommended that for my player (Panasonic DMP-BD60K) that you set the picture to user and drop the contrast a notch or 2 (dropping the contrast on my player corrects the strange "ramping up" behavior for me for that matter)...

I wonder if, for display purposes, some players might come stock set to "impress" viewers without actually being properly calibrated.
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post #609 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 09:16 AM
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I wonder what's up with the contrast on these players.

In many cases there is nothing wrong with the player. By adjusting picture controls in the player, you are working around problems downstream, like receivers and displays.

While I have not measured the HDMI output of every player, I have measured the OPPO and its levels are 100% correct. They match what is on the disc. I have examined the pixel values coming from the HDMI output using an HDMI analyzer.
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post #610 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

In many cases there is nothing wrong with the player. By adjusting picture controls in the player, you are working around problems downstream, like receivers and displays.

While I have not measured the HDMI output of every player, I have measured the OPPO and its levels are 100% correct. They match what is on the disc. I have examined the pixel values coming from the HDMI output using an HDMI analyzer.

Since the OPPO is 100% correct, would you suggest lowering the contrast on the OPPO to get the patterns to properly display? On my Pioneer 5020, no matter how much I lower the contrast I can't get the patterns to look as accurate, unless I lower 2 notches on the OPPO and leave the settings on the 5020 to the calibrated settings. I read in previous posts where this is a problem with the Pioneers. I have the oppo set up for 36 bit deep color and from all the previous discussions it would not really degrade the quality of the image by adjusting the OPPO's contrast. Or has something changed with firmware updates on the OPPO?
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post #611 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

Thanks. I guess it best to trust my calibration and not worry so much about what the test patterns are showing.

Actually you should be integrating both. If you have an Oppo with picture controls at default you're getting exactly what's on the disc. If the image on the display shows signs of clipping you need to find the faulty downstream component(s). This is normally straightforward.
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post #612 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 05:30 PM
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would you suggest lowering the contrast on the OPPO to get the patterns to properly display?

I am not a fan of adjusting picture controls in a player. I don't know at what precision (bitdepth) they are done at. I would probably live with the problem if you can't fix it in the display. Actually, I would buy a new display, but that is not practical.
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post #613 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Actually you should be integrating both. If you have an Oppo with picture controls at default you're getting exactly what's on the disc. If the image on the display shows signs of clipping you need to find the faulty downstream component(s). This is normally straightforward.

Since the OPPO goes directly into the Pioneer 5020 via HDMI, either the 5020 is faulty or the OPPO is faulty. Since the problem exists when I set up the OPPO to either use direct source or 1080p, the fault has to be in the 5020. So is the 5020 a bad tv? No. It's also not the best plasma out there. Nonetheless, even with it's limitations, it's still has very good PQ. I'm just trying to squeeze the best out of it.
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post #614 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 08:21 PM
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So is the 5020 a bad tv?

I will see if I can locate a Pioneer Plasma locally. Don and I calibrated one at a local dealer last year and I believe we were able to dial it in. We had a wall of displays that also included Panasonic, Samsung, and Sharp. Each display had its quirks but when it was all said and done, we got them all pretty close to matching each other.
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post #615 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by wxman View Post

Since the problem exists when I set up the OPPO to either use direct source or 1080p, the fault has to be in the 5020. So is the 5020 a bad tv? No. It's also not the best plasma out there. Nonetheless, even with it's limitations, it's still has very good PQ. I'm just trying to squeeze the best out of it.

Well my KRP is the best plasma out there and like all Kuro monitors it clips. You can read back in this thread or the KRP threads about using DRE to unclip both ends of the video range.

If you can select RGB 0-255 on a 5020 it's easy to look for clipping. Set the Oppo to RGB 16-235 and the Kuro to RGB 0-255. If you can clearly see all the bars then you know the panel is clipping in its normal settings. If it is you have to decide if it's worth it to use DRE in the panel or compress the source signal to a range acceptable to the Kuro. I think most people (say they) are willing to give up a bit of above reference white material rather than use one of the alternatives.

Personally it's an area of ongoing investigation.
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post #616 of 1227 Old 03-05-2010, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bodosom View Post

Well my KRP is the best plasma out there and like all Kuro monitors it clips. You can read back in this thread or the KRP threads about using DRE to unclip both ends of the video range.

If you can select RGB 0-255 on a 5020 it's easy to look for clipping. Set the Oppo to RGB 16-235 and the Kuro to RGB 0-255. If you can clearly see all the bars then you know the panel is clipping in its normal settings. If it is you have to decide if it's worth it to use DRE in the panel or compress the source signal to a range acceptable to the Kuro. I think most people (say they) are willing to give up a bit of above reference white material rather than use one of the alternatives.

Personally it's an area of ongoing investigation.

Thanks for the help! I did as suggested and the panel is clipping. I would prefer to let the panel function as is without making adjustments to the OPPO. In reality, the difference is really only noticed with the patterns on the disc with only a slight difference (whether good or bad) while watching movies. I do think Pioneer made the best plasma tv's. The 20's are not as good as an Elite or M series IMO. I knew that when I purchased it, but am still quite happy with it. With the 20 series, DRE is off in movie mode and can not be turned on. Movie mode is the one that is usually calibrated since the color temperature is already close to 65K out of the box. That is the mode I had calibrated. I guess one could calibrate Game mode as DRE is always off too, but the color temperature out of the box is around 80K, but that could easily be adjusted through a calibration. Still, even in Game mode, it still clips. I guess I just have to accept the limitations of this tv, which isn't difficult, since it still is impressive. What I really like about the S&M disc and OPPO is that they show the limitations of your panel. They are brutally honest! My hats off to S&M for creating the best disc out there.
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post #617 of 1227 Old 03-06-2010, 06:09 AM
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Wonder if anyone's tried approximating maximum horizontal resolutions within HD images using the multiburst test patterns--or if that's even feasible? A while back here Stacey posted the frequency of each burst . Need to convert frequencies into HD resolutions; has anyone done this?

Briefly watched a Florida Everglades "Sunrise Earth" episode yesterday with many shots showing tall vertical grass blades of varying widths depending on their distance. By recording such images, then A-B comparing them with the burst patterns (vertical line widths for horizontal resolution) it seems you could estimate image detail resolution. Non-sampled test patterns, AIUI, can show 1920X1080 on suitable displays but typical sampled images (to consumers) less than that (~1500?) Or, maybe just buy/rent a high-end spectrum analyzer. ;-) -- John

EDIT: Chasing down and viewing the add-on resolution-diagram link, it looks like only one or two resolution bursts might apply. 1920 (37 MHz) wouldn't, it seems, unless there are Blu-rays or other sources, say from downconverted 4k, that actually deliver ~1920-line-equivalent resolvable image details (not test patterns). Guess you'd need a long string of higher-frequency bursts, each maybe ~100 lines apart(?)
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post #618 of 1227 Old 03-09-2010, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shydow View Post

Small question regarding contrast...

I'm noticing that while my set is capable of displaying every bar of the contrast pattern, it seems to have to "ramp up" on one setting.

I know either 27 or 28 is the perfect number, but when set to 28, although it will eventually display the entire pattern, it takes a second. If I open my set's menu, it shows the full contrast range.

However as soon as I close the menu, 246 and above disappear for a second (literally, about one second) and then reappear.

When set to 27, it constantly shows the full range.

Which setting am I wanting to go with here?

I'd say the ramp is smoother at 28 though, but obviously we're talking about a very slight difference here.

Edit: It should also be noted that on the second pattern whereby the contrast pattern is flashing, it continues displaying all the bars, but if I open and close the menu they do the whodini trick again.

My Toshiba LCD shows the full range of the contrast bars from 0-255, no matter what the contrast setting is set. At contrast setting of (0-100), all bars up to around 254 are still visible. It just gets extremely bright at 100 contrast, but still shows all bars. I'm not sure what is happening?!?! I have dynamic contrast and all other "auto" controls turned off.
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post #619 of 1227 Old 03-12-2010, 07:30 AM
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I recently puchased the S&M disc. I am still relatively in the initial process of using the disk, but do have a question.
I have a Pioneer 111fd when I view the brightness pattern I cannot seem to get my display to NOT clip white(I can't see all the white bars after 234 or so its all white). Now I am using a Pio 51FD BD player. Ive read that when you run into this, it can mean that your displays gamma curve is not correct. Is there a way to fix this without have a professional calibration and/or controlcal?
My BD player does have a gamma setting on it, would that make a difference if I messed with that? I'm kinda new to this disc and its a lot of information to take in. Or maybe I making it seem harder than it really is. lol

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post #620 of 1227 Old 03-12-2010, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

I recently puchased the S&M disc. I am still relatively in the initial process of using the disk, but do have a question.
I have a Pioneer 111fd when I view the brightness pattern I cannot seem to get my display to NOT clip white(I can't see all the white bars after 234 or so its all white). Now I am using a Pio 51FD BD player. Ive read that when you run into this, it can mean that your displays gamma curve is not correct. Is there a way to fix this without have a professional calibration and/or controlcal?
My BD player does have a gamma setting on it, would that make a difference if I messed with that? I'm kinda new to this disc and its a lot of information to take in. Or maybe I making it seem harder than it really is. lol

Searching this thread for "111fd" finds a lot of posts about clipping on this display. I don't believe it is a gamma issue.

The articles on the S&M website show how to calibrate a display that clips.

-Bill
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post #621 of 1227 Old 03-12-2010, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeBloggz View Post

I am using a Pio 51FD BD player.

When you see clipping you have to determine the faulty component(s) before you can apply any fixes. If you connect the BD directly to the display and perform the test I suggest, you can see if the 51FD is clipping with it's current settings. Alternatively the 51FD like the BDP-83 may be known good with default picture control settings. Unfortunately I have no experience with one.
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post #622 of 1227 Old 03-12-2010, 09:49 AM
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Joe,

Bodosom's advice about testing with player to display is a good first step. There is at least one AV receiver on the market that clips. Its always the first step.

Second would be to go through the various picture modes and see if they make any difference. Usually movie is a good start.

Third, are the white boxes the only boxes clipped on the clipping pattern. While not ideal, clipping in YCbCr is MUCH better than clipping in RGB.

You should also try the various color space output options on your player and see if that makes a difference. 4:4:4 and or RGB may not clip compared to 4:2:2.
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post #623 of 1227 Old 03-12-2010, 09:50 AM
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My Toshiba LCD shows the full range of the contrast bars from 0-255, no matter what the contrast setting is set.

Is it a real contrast control or is it adjusting backlight? Normally they call backlight brightness, not contrast.

If it never clips, crank it up. If you turn it all the way down, does the image get really dark?
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post #624 of 1227 Old 03-12-2010, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Is it a real contrast control or is it adjusting backlight? Normally they call backlight brightness, not contrast.

If it never clips, crank it up. If you turn it all the way down, does the image get really dark?

My Sony KDL-46Z5100 is the same way. I can crank it to 100 and the I can still make out all the bars on the Dynamic Rnage High pattern.
An ISF calibrator posts in the owners thread for that display, and he has his set at 89 I think. Don't know how he came to that setting, but that's where I have mine set too.
If I turn it down several notches from 100, then the brightest bars get just a wee bit darker, so that's where I have it for now.

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post #625 of 1227 Old 03-13-2010, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Joe,

Bodosom's advice about testing with player to display is a good first step. There is at least one AV receiver on the market that clips. Its always the first step.

Second would be to go through the various picture modes and see if they make any difference. Usually movie is a good start.

Third, are the white boxes the only boxes clipped on the clipping pattern. While not ideal, clipping in YCbCr is MUCH better than clipping in RGB.

You should also try the various color space output options on your player and see if that makes a difference. 4:4:4 and or RGB may not clip compared to 4:2:2.

Thanks, i'll try the different color space. I leave my 51FD set to 4:4:4 as I feel it gives me the best results. Also in terms of picutre modes, I am using "pure" mode as it provides the most realistic picture. I can try some others and see if there is a difference.
Yes the white boxes are the only areas of apparent clipping.
My BD player is connected directly to the display.

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post #626 of 1227 Old 03-17-2010, 11:21 PM
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Can Mr. Spears or Mr. Munsil please explain "barely visible" in regards to the brightness(low pluge) test? My Pan. BD60 player is only showing the 2 bars on the right. The instructions say to set brightness to where the right bar is clearly visible, and the left bar is "barely visible". When right up to the screen(106" diagonal) do I set it to where I can just see the dots flashing within the bar? Or should the whole bar be visible? Should I be able to read the #20 on the bar? It's very confusing what "barely visible" means? Thanks.
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post #627 of 1227 Old 03-18-2010, 01:49 AM
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Mybe this info regarding color spaces will help some others out. I am using an Oppo BDP-83, and Integra 9.9, and an AE4000 PJ.

using the Spears and Munsil test disc I found the following:

I found that the best color space on the Oppo is RGB video based upon two patterns:The Chroma Multiburst pattern shows more detail on the farthest right squares as I go from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 to RGB video. So 4:4:4 shows one far right box as black....4:2:2 shows the colored lines.....RGB video shows the colored lines more vibrantly and more defined.

The clipping pattern for white and RGB using the multi tiered colored squares shows slightly more detail with RGB video than with the other two color spaces.

I have also connected the Oppo directly to the AE4000 and got the same results, so I am fairly confident that the Integra 9.9 is not causing any of the results.

So obviously the AE4000 likes getting RGB video better.

I also have deep color enabled in the Oppo (36 bit) and in the Integra 9.9. I cannot see any differences when switching the deep color options in the Oppo to lower bit rates.

Any thoughts or comments?
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post #628 of 1227 Old 03-18-2010, 05:43 AM
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BD60 player is only showing the 2 bars on the right.

Hi Jim,

If you turn brightness up, do the two bars on the left ever show up? The BD60 is capable of showing all four bars. If you do not see them, it may be your display that is clipping them. You may also want to try 4:2:2, 4:4:4, and RGB output from your player to see if this changes.

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do I set it to where I can just see the dots flashing within the bar?

The pattern does not contain any dots in it. What you describe sounds a lot like dither from the display. Is this display a DLP? If so, can you see the checkerboard (large squares) on the left and right hand side of the pattern? On a DLP, one group of squares on the checker should be free of dots while the other should have dots in it.

If you only have the two bars on the right, turn brightness down until the dots are gone on the inside bar. It should one or two clicks on the control to bring the bar back. The dots should be all across the bar, if it is dither, not just the edges. You should be able to see the inside bar from your seating position. It is the checkerboard you may have to put your nose to the screen with.
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post #629 of 1227 Old 03-18-2010, 05:48 AM
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I found that the best color space on the Oppo is RGB video based upon two patterns:The Chroma Multiburst pattern shows more detail on the farthest right squares as I go from 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 to RGB video.

Also look at the chroma alignment pattern. There is a case where the burst will be the brightest on the far right, but is an actual error. You can verify this by looking at the chroma alignment pattern as well as the upper left bar on the burst. An error will also show up on the chroma alignment pattern as delay. (1/2 pixel) This will also result in steps in the upper left square instead of it being smooth.

The other thing to watch out for is that anytime you switch color spaces, you need to re-adjust all of your picture controls. Less often between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4. But often between 4:n:n and RGB. One reason is because a display might have a different memory for each color space. It may also have a different memory for each resolution, and possibly each frame rate. There are a lot of combinations. The nice thing about a lot of Blu-ray players, like the OPPO, is that you can try all color space and resolutions.

When looking at deep color options, you should look at the graident in the middle of the contrast pattern. Try with and w/o dither. You want the mode with the smoothest gradient.
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post #630 of 1227 Old 03-18-2010, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by sspears View Post

Also look at the chroma alignment pattern. There is a case where the burst will be the brightest on the far right, but is an actual error. You can verify this by looking at the chroma alignment pattern as well as the upper left bar on the burst. An error will also show up on the chroma alignment pattern as delay. (1/2 pixel) This will also result in steps in the upper left square instead of it being smooth.

The other thing to watch out for is that anytime you switch color spaces, you need to re-adjust all of your picture controls. Less often between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4. But often between 4:n:n and RGB. One reason is because a display might have a different memory for each color space. It may also have a different memory for each resolution, and possibly each frame rate. There are a lot of combinations. The nice thing about a lot of Blu-ray players, like the OPPO, is that you can try all color space and resolutions.

When looking at deep color options, you should look at the graident in the middle of the contrast pattern. Try with and w/o dither. You want the mode with the smoothest gradient.

Thank you for the feedback. I suspect what is at work here is that the Oppo does a better job at color space conversion that the Panny AE4000 PJ.
I will take another look at the chroma alignment pattern and take note of what you said.

The brightness setting was the same with RGB as compared to 4:x:x, but I dropped the contrast setting.
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